Edmonton Public Transit

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Edmontonguy

Saw Valley LRT testing today. Alternating between one car and then two cars. Appeared to be running at a consistent frequency.

Two observations: very s l o w. Rapid transit, it is not. Not even on the separated from traffic portions, which is quite sad.

And can anyone answer what happens if passenger demand ever exceeds two LRV's? The system, as designed, seems hamstrung to meet future needs. What's the point of spending billions of capacity can't be added?

Perhaps it was running at 'testing' speed? I thought I read somewhere that it would oeprate at around 70 km/hr on the separated section along 66 St. in Mill Woods, for example.

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Yes and no, cards a proven technology that are likely used by the majority globally still, but it is nice to know that the ARC card readers do have the capability to read smartphones, credit cards, etc. when the time comes to activate that feature.

I don't often use transit but I had to today returning from the Walmart Super Centre just south of NAIT. I walked up there and passed through a neighbourhood where almost all the ground floor windows had plywood boards or bars and grills. Even on the train ride back to downtown there were plenty of buildings with boards on the windows.

I didn't go over to Blatchford because it was a little breezy outside. All I could see was a large empty space where a lonely bulldozer busied itself trying to recreate the Ziggurat of Ur out of dirty snow.

I couldn't figure out why the mall opens at 10 am but the Walmart opens two hours earlier. I'm supposing a few of the merchants are losing out on foot traffic while shoppers enjoy the Walmart and depart before being noticed by anybody else. It's a nice store--hadn't been there before.

Anyhow, that's a distraction thread for a later time.

As I said, I took the train back downtown around nine in the morning from NAIT and it was practically empty. There were a few homeless people hopping on for a ride to somewhere important, I'm sure. So while rush hour traffic choked 107 Ave, 109 St, Kingsway, and Princess Elizabeth, the mass transit vehicles were sparsely occupied.

Here's where the exciting ARC card part of the story emerges.

I have been using this card for a while and it's always worked even though there's a lag as though the connection is 9600 baud. But today, after transferring to a bus and tapping on swiftly, the exit tap didn't work. And didn't work. And didn't work. I was at the rear door so there was a second terminal nearby and that one did work. There was no message or anything from the faulty tap screen. It just didn't work.

I reviewed my Transaction History when I got home and everything was fine. I wasn't overcharged. I've now used the card to board a transit vehicle 24 times since I bought the thing in mid-December. Most of those uses included transfers so it looks like I ride about 5 times a month.

But the serious issue is the tap off failure. If I've only tapped on 24 times and experienced one failure that's roughly four per cent. A regular rider could experience that failure three or more times a month and each time there's a failure the customer has to figure out what to do next. I was in no way going to debark that bus until my card tapped out because if you're delinquent in your tapping they automatically charge you double. I'm not going to be in that situation--ever.

[Harrison]

Yeah, I don't like that you have to tap-off the buses and LRT stations, as that isn't typical with other smart cards. I do undertand that with our 'proof of payment' and turnstile-free LRT stations that there has to be somewhere to tap off your card, as you do to exit turnstiles of rapid transit stations in other cities.

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Yeah, I don't like that you have to tap-off the buses and LRT stations, as that isn't typical with other smart cards. I do undertand that with our 'proof of payment' and turnstile-free LRT stations that there has to be somewhere to tap off your card, as you do to exit turnstiles of rapid transit stations in other cities.

Elaborate.

I'm not very sure how other cities manage their tap cards. It seemed logical to me that the tap off was intrinsic to the transfer system.

Most big cities have controlled entry points but we don't. Should we do it that way instead? Anybody who can bend the ear of the commissioner?

[Rocket252]

^ I can confirm that in the cities in Spain and Portugal you only tap on and tap off at the entry and exit turnstiles. That is the proper and secure way to manage the security on the train platforms and something essential for Edmonton.

Buses in Rome had scan on but no scan off requirements as I recall.

[Slide]

I don't understand the tap-off. Isn't that only necessary when the fare is correlated to the distance travelled? Why would a single fare system need a tap-off

[Rocket252]

Maybe to plan for the future where Edmonton will have multifare systems that will be initiated if our metro area can get their act together

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

Maybe to plan for the future where Edmonton will have multifare systems that will be initiated if our metro area can get their act together

This.

[s211]

No tap out required of buses in Vancouver, but there is for rapid transit. They gave up trying to figure out distance-based bus fares and so no tap out required.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by s211

No tap out required of buses in Vancouver, but there is for rapid transit. They gave up trying to figure out distance-based bus fares and so no tap out required.

I believe this is the same for PRESTO in the GTA, which was the basis of my comment regarding the questioning around why we tap off buses here.

[Hardhatdan]

I wish it was a distance based fare system, tap in and tap out tracked by distance.

If you don't tap out, you get sent a standard full fare.

For me, I can't afford to take transit a short hop to Downtown or Whyte. The cost for 2 people both ways is more than parking and the travel time to Downtown is equivalent and to Whyte is longer.

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Slide

I don't understand the tap-off. Isn't that only necessary when the fare is correlated to the distance travelled? Why would a single fare system need a tap-off

The way I see it is due to the transfer system. It's timed to 90 minutes so you tap on at 9 am, say, and go somewhere 20 minutes away. You tap off and it's at that exact time you're charged your $2.75.

In this example I'm going somewhere to buy some groceries and I'll spend 15 or 20 minutes picking them up. Then I go to the bus stop and wait five or ten minutes for another bus.

I tap on and the system knows that I've tapped on just 40 minutes later so it doesn't matter whether my new bus takes an hour to get to where it's supposed to go. I still pay just $2.75.

It's actually really convenient for people who live, work, and shop around transit centres or transit stops. But that's wishful thinking because the development of facilities transit users typically need are moving farther away from the transit hubs.

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

Maybe to plan for the future where Edmonton will have multifare systems that will be initiated if our metro area can get their act together

Multi-fare transit "zones" typically discourage transit use for those who have to pay more to ride on the same system. They tried it in Victoria BC where I lived before moving back to Edmonton and it failed spectacularly.

Now they have a single fare "day pass" and got rid of the transfers entirely.

I will point out, too, that we have a kind of a "zone" system here because it still costs five bucks to use the Route 747 to the airport. I suspect the projected LRT line there will cost even more since there's a specific user base who has a cab or rental car as their only alternative.

I don't want to get in front of my skis but that preferred clientele won't use the train if it's overrun with bums.

[Slide]

Originally Posted by stilicho

The way I see it is due to the transfer system. It's timed to 90 minutes so you tap on at 9 am, say, and go somewhere 20 minutes away. You tap off and it's at that exact time you're charged your $2.75.

In this example I'm going somewhere to buy some groceries and I'll spend 15 or 20 minutes picking them up. Then I go to the bus stop and wait five or ten minutes for another bus.

I tap on and the system knows that I've tapped on just 40 minutes later so it doesn't matter whether my new bus takes an hour to get to where it's supposed to go. I still pay just $2.75.

It's actually really convenient for people who live, work, and shop around transit centres or transit stops. But that's wishful thinking because the development of facilities transit users typically need are moving farther away from the transit hubs.

You can do this without requiring a tap off. I've used systems like this in other cities, no tap off required. The system knows I tapped on at 9:00am, and i have until 10:30. So if i get on another bus at 10:00 and tap, the system says my transfer is still valid. This doesn't require a tap off because my first tap on charges me $2.75 for 90 minutes; not when i tap off. It's unnecessary. It should work exactly like a transfer did before the card system, which is to charge you at the start, not at the end.

I've only ever used tap off in distance based systems where my fare is calculated on how far i've gone which then makes sense to charge you at the end, not at the start.

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Slide

You can do this without requiring a tap off. I've used systems like this in other cities, no tap off required. The system knows I tapped on at 9:00am, and i have until 10:30. So if i get on another bus at 10:00 and tap, the system says my transfer is still valid. This doesn't require a tap off because my first tap on charges me $2.75 for 90 minutes; not when i tap off. It's unnecessary. It should work exactly like a transfer did before the card system, which is to charge you at the start, not at the end.

I've only ever used tap off in distance based systems where my fare is calculated on how far i've gone which then makes sense to charge you at the end, not at the start.

Truthfully the entire interface, hardware, and reporting product looks like it was bought and installed out of the box without any developer input or any project management.

Have you used it yet?

The "transaction history" is laughably incomprehensible.

[Slide]

Originally Posted by stilicho

Truthfully the entire interface, hardware, and reporting product looks like it was bought and installed out of the box without any developer input or any project management.

Have you used it yet?

The "transaction history" is laughably incomprehensible.

I haven't had the chance to try it yet, so my thoughts on it are just based on what others have shared here. And i dont doubt all the problems and lack of full thought behind some of its decisions that would make it quintessentially Edmonton.

Ultimately, I guess, when the bar is: "they finally implemented 20 year old technology and you finally dont have to pay with cash in the year 2023" then whatever system they put in is a win.

So i am happy about that. Does anyone know if you can load/buy a card/ticket with a credit card at an LRT station or are those machines still cash only? Because if its still cash only, then i take back previous comment

[Rocket252]

As per CTV 5 car accidents involving the SE LRT - just in testing phase.


https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/illegal-righ...e-southeast-lrt-trains-transed-1.6322262

[ExcaliburKid]

Driving down 75th street yesterday around 2:30pm, just north of the Whitemud, a gravel truck right-turned directly into a northbound train. Ripped the hood and bumper clean off the semi and the train had extensive scraping and gouges and an entire passenger window was smashed out

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Slide

Does anyone know if you can load/buy a card/ticket with a credit card at an LRT station or are those machines still cash only? Because if its still cash only, then i take back previous comment

Yes you can - all of the Arc machines at the LRT stations (and transit centres as well, but haven't been to one recently to see) accept credit card payments.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by ExcaliburKid

Driving down 75th street yesterday around 2:30pm, just north of the Whitemud, a gravel truck right-turned directly into a northbound train. Ripped the hood and bumper clean off the semi and the train had extensive scraping and gouges and an entire passenger window was smashed out

Well... at least it was a train and not a pedestrian, cyclist or a small car. Drivers ed needs some work.