Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Et si on se mettait à ne discuter qu'en français à partir de maintenant (dans ce fil-ci spécifiquement)...? Lol

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Et si on se mettait à ne discuter qu'en français à partir de maintenant (dans ce fil-ci spécifiquement)...? Lol

Ça ne me déplairait pas du tout, mais ça nuirait selon moi à l'une des principales raisons-d'être du fil, c'est-à-dire de partager des perspectives et des faits avec des gens qui ne les entendront pas ailleurs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

"... que le Québec devienne ..." (subjonctif après "que".)

(Je corrige parce que je sais que ça te rend service; je voudrais qu'on le fasse aussi, si j'étais à ta place. Ton français est vraiment impressionnant, en passant.)

Et je dirais que c'est l'inverse: ce sont les libéraux qui ne prennent pas les Québécois au sérieux (ç'a commencé sous Couillard et ça n'a fait qu'empirer depuis). Et... surprise... les résultats suivent.

Oui bravo à notre ami Dengler pour son français!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by lio45

Et si on se mettait à ne discuter qu'en français à partir de maintenant (dans ce fil-ci spécifiquement)...? Lol

It would be an improvement, I think. You should do it.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Or Halifax could simply evolve to a more user-friendly, more transient identity where no one is considered to be "from away" and you're a Haligonian almost from the moment you move there. All of which is quite typical of Canada west of the Ottawa River, but historically not as common in Atlantic Canada.

Halifax would obviously be the first place in Atlantic Canada to truly transition towards this modern Canadian civic identity.

I'd actually bet on that. It's probably already happening to some degree.

I haven't gone back and read the rest of the thread since I've last posted (one could say I've lost interest)... but the "come from away" thing confuses me a little.

I was born in NS, my parents were born in NS, their parents were born in NS... from there I'm not sure... but I've never heard anyone in my circle of friends or family, my entire life, refer to people as "come from away". Is that a rural thing, or have I missed something all these years? You all talk like Haligonians are sitting on their front porches with all of their pedigreed Nova Scotians pointing to people walking by... "he's a come-from-away, ya know"...

To me, it sounds like a rural thing, perhaps? I know this dude from Ontario who moved to rural PEI to get away from it all, and he says he has been referred to by the locals as "come from away", but it's never been a thing with me or anyone that I know.

Just confused a little by the discussion, like I've lived here all my life but have never heard what obviously must be a common local expression/viewpoint. I guess I don't travel in the 'right' circles or something...

Anyhow... sorry to interrupt, just raising my eyebrows over a small sliver of the conversation... continuez, s'il te plait...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I haven't gone back and read the rest of the thread since I've last posted (one could say I've lost interest)... but the "come from away" thing confuses me a little.

I was born in NS, my parents were born in NS, their parents were born in NS... from there I'm not sure... but I've never heard anyone in my circle of friends or family, my entire life, refer to people as "come from away". Is that a rural thing, or have I missed something all these years? You all talk like Haligonians are sitting on their front porches with all of their pedigreed Nova Scotians pointing to people walking by... "he's a come-from-away, ya know"...

To me, it sounds like a rural thing, perhaps? I know this dude from Ontario who moved to rural PEI to get away from it all, and he says he has been referred to by the locals as "come from away", but it's never been a thing with me or anyone that I know.

Just confused a little by the discussion, like I've lived here all my life but have never heard what obviously must be a common local expression/viewpoint. I guess I don't travel in the 'right' circles or something...

Anyhow... sorry to interrupt, just raising my eyebrows over a small sliver of the conversation... continuez, s'il te plait...

Sorry, I didn't say that the "come from away" thing was something I observed in Halifax. I only observed it personally in PEI (and of course Newfoundland).

Someone123 was the one who mentioned that it was something that one could hear all over Atlantic Canada.

Though I have to say again that there is a fairly benign differentiation between being a local vs. a non-local all over the Maritimes. The main cities are less like that of course, and Halifax is probably the furthest along in terms of no longer having that mindset present.

I'd still say that Halifax is a bit more like that than, say, London (Ontario) or Saskatoon. But not for long, I'd guess.

[Nashe]

Atlantic Canada towns are probably some of the ones you'll find with the longest roots... and thus get a bit insular. Case in point: both my oldest known maternal ancestor (1646-1710) and paternal ancestor (1796-1873) raised their families within 150km of where I grew up and currently live in SE NB and every generation in between was well inside that radius. Conversations with Boomers or older often involve some sort of initial "who's your father?" exchange to establish lineage interconnects.

But overall I'd agree that PEI and NL likely have the strongest "insider/outsider" vibes that propogate even outside of the small towns and villages, in my experience.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Atlantic Canada towns are probably some of the ones you'll find with the longest roots... and thus get a bit insular. Case in point: both my oldest known maternal ancestor (1646-1710) and paternal ancestor (1796-1873) raised their families within 150km of where I grew up and currently live in SE NB and every generation in between was well inside that radius. Conversations with Boomers or older often involve some sort of initial "who's your father?" exchange to establish lineage interconnects.

But overall I'd agree that PEI and NL likely have the strongest "insider/outsider" vibes that propogate even outside of the small towns and villages, in my experience.

My Acadien family obviously doesn't live exactly where they settled in the early 1600s because they were deported from the area starting in 1755.

But I have aunts, uncles and cousins who live less than 5 km from the land that was granted to one of our forebears by the British government (I have a copy of the document at home), post-deportation around the 1760s or 1770s I would say.

And now that I think of it, I do have relatives (an aunt and an uncle) who live about 60 km from the original place where our family settled in Acadie in the first half of the 1600s.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My Acadien family obviously doesn't live exactly where they settled in the early 1600s because they were deported from the area starting in 1755.

But I have aunts, uncles and cousins who live less than 5 km from the land that was granted to one of our forebears by the British government (I have a copy of the document at home), post-deportation around the 1760s or 1770s I would say.

Very common in Acadie. Heck, we're probably related. (Got any ties to Pierre Arsenault?) My uncles and aunts on both sides of my family were born, lived and (some) died in Kent county.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Québec solidaire has stolen away a Liberal riding in central western Montréal in a byelection.

This was Dominique Anglade's old seat.

Kind of a "proxy fight" between the current Big Two in the polls (CAQ and PQ).

CAQ was rooting for QS, they love it when that unelectable party gets to position itself as the alternative to them.

PQ would like QS to disappear and is much more comfortable with the West Island Bloc as their sole rival when it comes to being an alternative to the CAQ.

I've started to see articles mentioning the (obviously inevitable) moment when the CAQ hits its Best Before Date, which is a newish thing (previously, it was just considered the Natural Governing Party for the foreseeable future). All other parties would love to be the one that replaces them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Kind of a "proxy fight" between the current Big Two in the polls (CAQ and PQ).

CAQ was rooting for QS, they love it when that unelectable party gets to position itself as the alternative to them.

PQ would like QS to disappear and is much more comfortable with the West Island Bloc as their sole rival when it comes to being an alternative to the CAQ.

I've started to see articles mentioning the (obviously inevitable) moment when the CAQ hits its Best Before Date, which is a newish thing (previously, it was just considered the Natural Governing Party for the foreseeable future). All other parties would love to be the one that replaces them.

It would be interesting and maybe even surprising to consider which of the PLQ, PQ and QS has the highest potential ceiling when it comes to appealling to the largest demographic of voters.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It would be interesting and maybe even surprising to consider which of the PLQ, PQ and QS has the highest potential ceiling when it comes to appealling to the largest demographic of voters.

That's not "interesting", the answer is just obvious (PQ by far).

A more interesting question is, does the CAQ get replaced at some point in the foreseeable future, or do we become like Alberta with their provincial conservatives from the 1960s to the 2010s? The "real Quebec election" would be the CAQ leadership races...

[lio45]

I'll grant you that one thing that is "interesting" is that given that the CAQ is firmly in the saddle and all signs point to it staying there for the foreseeable future, the time when it gets replaced is so far away in the future that we can't know for sure that the QS and PLQ (as you know, both are completely unelectable province-wide now and both have the clear intention of remaining unelectable for a long time) won't have completely reinvented themselves by then, in order to be competitive options rather than just opposition blocs.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Atlantic Canada towns are probably some of the ones you'll find with the longest roots... and thus get a bit insular. Case in point: both my oldest known maternal ancestor (1646-1710) and paternal ancestor (1796-1873) raised their families within 150km of where I grew up and currently live in SE NB and every generation in between was well inside that radius. Conversations with Boomers or older often involve some sort of initial "who's your father?" exchange to establish lineage interconnects.

But overall I'd agree that PEI and NL likely have the strongest "insider/outsider" vibes that propogate even outside of the small towns and villages, in my experience.

I've heard people I know from Cape Breton joke about the "who's your father" thing, but have never heard it in the Halifax/Dartmouth area (except from "come from away" Cape Bretoners... ). Interesting, and IMHO further drives home the point that the Atlantic Provinces have very granular cultural differences, even in areas not far away from each other.

I'm sure Quebec and other provinces are like that as well, but of course I can only speak of the place in which I live and the areas with which I have a high level of familiarity.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I've heard people I know from Cape Breton joke about the "who's your father" thing, but have never heard it in the Halifax/Dartmouth area (except from "come from away" Cape Bretoners... ). Interesting, and IMHO further drives home the point that the Atlantic Provinces have very granular cultural differences, even in areas not far away from each other.

I'm sure Quebec and other provinces are like that as well, but of course I can only speak of the place in which I live and the areas with which I have a high level of familiarity.

My family spans several Acadies (there is more than one) and it's interesting how there can sometimes be an insider-outsider dimension between most of them.

[ciudad_del_norte]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I've heard people I know from Cape Breton joke about the "who's your father" thing, but have never heard it in the Halifax/Dartmouth area (except from "come from away" Cape Bretoners... ). Interesting, and IMHO further drives home the point that the Atlantic Provinces have very granular cultural differences, even in areas not far away from each other.

I'm sure Quebec and other provinces are like that as well, but of course I can only speak of the place in which I live and the areas with which I have a high level of familiarity.

It's been about a decade since I lived in Halifax, and from what I can tell the city has changed quite a bit since then. That being said I do remember there being more of a general cultural awareness/distinction between outsiders and locals. People were usually nice enough, but it often seemed clear that on some level if you weren't from there, there was an outsider status that stays with you. It wasn't necessarily even a bad thing, it was just something that was relevant enough that people were aware of it in a way that I wasn't used to, particularily coming from 'berta.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ciudad_del_norte

It's been about a decade since I lived in Halifax, and from what I can tell the city has changed quite a bit since then. That being said I do remember there being more of a general cultural awareness/distinction between outsiders and locals. People were usually nice enough, but it often seemed clear that on some level if you weren't from there, there was an outsider status that stays with you. It wasn't necessarily even a bad thing, it was just something that was relevant enough that people were aware of it in a way that I wasn't used to, particularily coming from 'berta.

Very interesting. I guess being 'from' here I had somehow become blind to it... or people from other places were more sensitive to a certain 'vibe' that was given off? Among the 'locals', of which I was one, there was never really a thing where we would snub somebody from elsewhere, or knowingly make them feel like an outsider. That said, if somebody came from 'the big city' and treated us like a bunch of lowly know-nothings (it did happen from time-to-time), that was considered to be insulting, and animosity would be felt.

I recall briefly having a summer job with a business owner from somewhere in Ontario, who made it no secret that he thought all Maritimers were a bunch of ignorant idiots, who were obviously below him (he literally verbalized it), and that was my first real experience with an arrogant idiot from the "ROC" () who held some sort of superiority complex over people from the east cost that he viewed as being below him. I was somewhat naive to it at the time, but when I later realized what it was about, I was somewhat by it. The irony of the situation was that he was some fly-by-night vacuum cleaner salesman, and I, at the time, was an engineering student. I could have just as easily flipped some sort of superiority complex on him, but I have never worked that way (still don't).

Anyhow... sorry for the derail from 'choses sur le québec'... just got carried away a little. Fascinating stuff, especially looking back on it from today.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My family spans several Acadies (there is more than one) and it's interesting how there can sometimes be an insider-outsider dimension between most of them.

That's interesting in itself, as I would have thought there would be a "brotherhood" among people with Acadien heritage, that would overcome any insider-outsider dimension. Unless it's like a family with its own internal squabbles, but if someone from outside the family becomes a problem, then the family bonds together against the outsider, despite their differences.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though I have to say again that there is a fairly benign differentiation between being a local vs. a non-local all over the Maritimes. The main cities are less like that of course, and Halifax is probably the furthest along in terms of no longer having that mindset present.

I'd still say that Halifax is a bit more like that than, say, London (Ontario) or Saskatoon. But not for long, I'd guess.

Forgot to answer this one.

Can't disagree with any of it, though to me I haven't really sensed any quantum shift in Halifax over the past decade or so. I can say there has been a quiet evolution that has happened over the past four or five decades, to the point that the Halifax/Dartmouth I remember from the 1970s and 80s feels very different from the same area of today, in many ways (and then I've changed as well, as people tend to do - moving goalposts and all that).

But then I think that is true to a certain extent for almost any area. I first visited Calgary in 1983, and again in 1996. There were noteable changes between those visits, but when I went back in 2015 it seemed like an entirely different city to me. I'm sure it would seem different again today, but perhaps that is more because I wasn't there all the time in between. (FWIW, now that I think of it, being a Maritimer in Calgary in all three visits felt very much like a 'come from away' situation...). Another interesting observation was Banff - 1983 Banff felt like a small quaint Rocky Mountain city with some gift shops, etc. but very small town. 1996 felt like I had been airlifted to a small 'Canadian theme park' in the middle of Japan. 2015 was all-out tourist town with an 'outdoorsy' focus.

Sorry, again off-topic for Quebec...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That's interesting in itself, as I would have thought there would be a "brotherhood" among people with Acadien heritage, that would overcome any insider-outsider dimension. Unless it's like a family with its own internal squabbles, but if someone from outside the family becomes a problem, then the family bonds together against the outsider, despite their differences.

There is definitely an Acadien brotherhood and solidarity that exists across the provinces and regions, and it has been growing in recent decades. People don't dislike each other at all but if you visit communities you'll really see how different they are. Speech is notably quite different and so is the culture and cuisine, so you have rappie pie (râpure) in Nova Scotia which most people in northern New Brunswick couldn't make if their life depended on it. Poutine râpée (not related to the Québécois poutine) is a SE New Brunswick dish that my family in the north of the province has never eaten.

Northern New Brunswick Acadiens swear like Québécois but with Acadien accents, but that type of cussing is not heard from Nova Scotia Acadiens, and even only sporadically heard in southeastern New Brunswick.

Part of this is due to being in different provinces (I haven't even touched upon PEI Acadiens) so under different education systems, and institutional frameworks more generally. But even in New Brunswick there is a difference between the north and the southeast, with life in the north being more wholly francophone, as opposed to the southeast where Acadiens rub shoulders with English all day and often use that language more than French. The Acadien communities are also generally separated from each other by often very long stretches of anglo areas where lamost no one is Acadien. So until more modern communications and transportation they were fairly isolated from each other.

Interesting how there is probably less diversity and more commonality between francophones over great distances in Quebec, than there is between Acadien regions that aren't really that far apart.