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  #4861  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 6:02 PM
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I think most people in Quebec see a pretty big difference between first and second language French. (Assuming that second language French is actually growing in the ROC - I assume it is slowly on the way down in most places after several decades of decent growth.)
Undoubtedly there is a difference but the "opening" I was talking about has more to do with the fact that there's actually quite a bit of goodwill on the Maritime side (aside maybe from that reactionary chunk of NB, though most of those people seem to be about 700 years old) and actually many politicians there are in favour of preserving or promoting French, even though they may not have the power to engineer any specific outcome. I think it would be easy to get bilingual service in tourism around the Maritimes for example. Or have a situation where Francophones can move to Halifax while sending their kids to a Francophone school (not just immersion).

I think Quebec City and Halifax is one of those "city pairs" where there could be a stronger relationship than exists today. Though right now the highway is so-so, the rail transit is ridiculous, and it looks like flights are connection only and about $600 return.

If Quebec politics were a little different you could see an "everything east of Ontario" voting bloc emerge pretty easily as well I think as the underlying values are similar for the most part. But you are not going to get a situation where people around NS all spontaneously start speaking French and love divisive/populist Quebec politics.
     
     
  #4862  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 6:21 PM
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I'm low-key hoping that maybe 10 or 20 years from now, it will be socially acceptable enough to use "CFA" as a convenient acronym for "anyone who has moved to [whatever place is being discussed], whether from the ROC or another country"

As with ROC I don't think there's a more concise way of expressing CFA, but unfortunately the phrase/acronym has baggage, so for now we just settle for using way more words to express the same thing. I'm one of the people who might be "othered" by use of CFA to describe "non-old-stock" people and I'm still fine with the acronym (for pragmatic reasons), and my Albertan parents, who over a few decades began to think of themselves as "Nova Scotian now, I guess, having moved here from Alberta decades ago" would earnestly (or at least humourously) agree that they're CFAs. Because they are.

Although maybe I'm being foolishly naïve (@Lio - there's another one for you, according to the spell check) and the baggage historically associated with the term could become relevant again as more people move to Halifax/NS/wherever and pressures on the, well, non-CFAs increase significantly, to the point that many or even most are displaced (becoming somewhere else's CFAs) or left homeless.
Or Halifax could simply evolve to a more user-friendly, more transient identity where no one is considered to be "from away" and you're a Haligonian almost from the moment you move there. All of which is quite typical of Canada west of the Ottawa River, but historically not as common in Atlantic Canada.

Halifax would obviously be the first place in Atlantic Canada to truly transition towards this modern Canadian civic identity.

I'd actually bet on that. It's probably already happening to some degree.
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  #4863  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:01 PM
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Globalization and cosmopolitanism are one trend but there are others and these things are often pendulum-like. There are a lot of reasons to think we might be at the high end of the pendulum swing right now rather than in the middle.

Some aspects of culture are imposed by geography and the physical environment and that hasn't changed all that much.

In Atlantic Canada there have been heavy constraints on what you might call cultural self-expression due to economics and demographics. I think we might find that the cultural scene in NS/Halifax is richer in the future and the province generally becomes more interesting, and not in some kind of generic globalist way. And we might find that more people from the outlying areas who would have moved to Alberta or Ontario in the past end up staying in NS.
     
     
  #4864  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:23 PM
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Globalization and cosmopolitanism are one trend but there are others and these things are often pendulum-like. There are a lot of reasons to think we might be at the high end of the pendulum swing right now rather than in the middle.

Some aspects of culture are imposed by geography and the physical environment and that hasn't changed all that much.

In Atlantic Canada there have been heavy constraints on what you might call cultural self-expression due to economics and demographics. I think we might find that the cultural scene in NS/Halifax is richer in the future and the province generally becomes more interesting, and not in some kind of generic globalist way. And we might find that more people from the outlying areas who would have moved to Alberta or Ontario in the past end up staying in NS.
I have always found Halifax and Nova Scotia fairly interesting culturally to begin with. Even when I was a kid and it wasn't as affluent. The question is will more money and new blood "from away" make it more like every other place or even richer and more unique in the future?
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  #4865  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:24 PM
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A and B are sitting in a restaurant. A wants one of B's french fries. B says no. A says he will kill himself if B doesn't give him the french fry. A says it is ridiculous that B would let A kill himself over something so trivial as a french fry, which is about as bad as killing yourself because you didn't get a french fry, so they are even.

The real issue there is not the french fry, it is the suicide threats.

All that being said I agree with you, issues like Quebec provincial worker dress codes should generally be up to Quebec voters. The HRM mayor and council also basically agreed with this and the Charter might agree. The Charter gives wide laterality on a lot of issues compared to similar documents in many other countries.
I'd improve your analogy a bit:

A and B are sitting in a restaurant. A wants one of B's french fries. B says no. A says he will kill himself if B doesn't give him the french fry; he then pulls a sharp knife and puts the point to his own neck, pushes a bit in order to draw some blood, and tells B he's really going to plunge that knife into his neck unless he's given one fry. B sees this, and tells A that he doesn't care and that A can go ahead and slice his own neck wide open right then and there, he's STILL not going to give him a french fry.

In that analogy, they're BOTH being idiots. For "A" it obviously goes without saying, but if "B" was sane/reasonable, he'd be "okay, okay, put that knife down, I'll give you your fry" and then everything else can get discussed later (it would likely end up with B helping A get committed to an insane asylum).
     
     
  #4866  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:26 PM
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I think it would be easy to get bilingual service in tourism around the Maritimes for example. Or have a situation where Francophones can move to Halifax while sending their kids to a Francophone school (not just immersion).
Mweh on the first point, at least in my experience. Service in French outside Quebec is still 98% dependent on being served by a member of the local francophone community, or someone who moved there from Quebec or a francophonie country. The kids of French immersion are pretty discreet. I am told that it's because they all have awesome government jobs as a result of their bilingualism and don't take lowly service jobs. At least that is the explanation given in Ottawa.

Yay for the second point though, meaning that I definitely agree.
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  #4867  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:28 PM
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I'd improve your analogy a bit:

A and B are sitting in a restaurant. A wants one of B's french fries. B says no. A says he will kill himself if B doesn't give him the french fry; he then pulls a sharp knife and puts the point to his own neck, pushes a bit in order to draw some blood, and tells B he's really going to plunge that knife into his neck unless he's given one fry. B sees this, and tells A that he doesn't care and that A can go ahead and slice his own neck wide open right then and there, he's STILL not going to give him a french fry.

In that analogy, they're BOTH being idiots. For "A" it obviously goes without saying, but if "B" was sane/reasonable, he'd be "okay, okay, put that knife down, I'll give you your fry" and then everything else can get discussed later (it would likely end up with B helping A get committed to an insane asylum).
Both your stories, though usually in less extreme circumstances, are good examples of how divorces happen.

I'll let everyone extrapolate on how that translates to the geopolitical world.
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  #4868  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:33 PM
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I think Quebec City and Halifax is one of those "city pairs" where there could be a stronger relationship than exists today. Though right now the highway is so-so, the rail transit is ridiculous, and it looks like flights are connection only and about $600 return.

If Quebec politics were a little different you could see an "everything east of Ontario" voting bloc emerge pretty easily as well I think as the underlying values are similar for the most part. .
I've often thought about this as well. On a number of polling issues Atlantic Canada lines up reasonably well with Quebec. Not all of them of course but the differences often aren't as stark as with Ontario and the West.

The language difference and other cultural blindspots are quite difficult humps to overcome, however.

Atlantic Canada (or at least the Maritimes) also loves Canada and Ottawa a lot more than Quebec does.
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  #4869  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:34 PM
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Or Halifax could simply evolve to a more user-friendly, more transient identity where no one is considered to be "from away" and you're a Haligonian almost from the moment you move there. All of which is quite typical of Canada west of the Ottawa River, but historically not as common in Atlantic Canada.

Halifax would obviously be the first place in Atlantic Canada to truly transition towards this modern Canadian civic identity.

I'd actually bet on that. It's probably already happening to some degree.
Absolutely I'd say that's the paradigm we're in at this point. I meant more that there are nevertheless cases where it's useful to have an all-encompassing term for people who chose to move to [wherever "here" is], in statistical analysis for example, not so much for calling people that to their face (although I guess maybe you don't get one without the other).

I'd argue that Halifax is already a very transient city, and as much as I like to think of this city as "mature" or even "worldly", there is an underlying cultural belief here that no one should have to leave their homes just because they don't have enough money (the city was, at least in principle, extremely cautious about anything that might look like gentrification for the decades when I was growing up, and THE guiding policy principle was "make it so that anyone can remain in their geographically tiny neighbourhood from cradle to grave if they so choose while also living a full and productive life".

Great in principle, but the city never considered what would happen if land values suddenly "corrected" across the entire municipality at once. And once that started happening, those principles became the source of the new problems that we're facing now (compounded by the fact that they generally resulted in "very nice places to live", which makes more people more willing to spend more money to move here).

On the desk of a salaried Chief Planner (or tenured Planning/Architecture/Policy prof, etc), a walkable, bikeable city with no true down-and-out areas, usable transit, nice public facilities and landscaping, bespoke architecture with built-in mitigation against wind and shadows, excellent snow clearance capacity that is only really used about 7 days each year, ~0 SROs or cheap hotels, nicely preserved neighbourhoods made up of 250-year-old-wooden buildings, good wastewater treatment and strong environmental regulations, with information available in as many languages as possible and as much free everything for everyone as possible... that's undeniably a good thing.

But for the average person who has started building a life there, what good are all these things if the next step in the process is that they have to move somewhere that is more affordable (by virtue of being the opposite of most/all of that)? Given that I grew up during the decades of strong anti-gentrification, "causing people to have to move is the worst thing a society can do" messaging, it's hard for me to be like, "oh, right, the natural way of things is that people move from city to city all the time based on finances, and why would anyone ever expect to live in one place indefinitely?"

(Plus, I just like it here, and many of the things that I like about it are a direct result of work that my generation (including me) has put in, just to make the place that we live in a better place. I guess the punchline is that yeah, this does sort of happen everywhere all the time, and we just failed to realize that, and were too focused on "how things should be" to notice all of the "how things are".)

Certainly, over time, corporations might flourish there ("it's where our employees and/or executives want to live", etc.) which might bring higher-paying job opportunities to people who grew up expecting to live their lives there, allowing them to remain. But this part hasn't really happened here yet in any major way - there's the Shipbuilding Program, but that can't really be seen as a solution to what's happening now.

The obvious solution is just to build much more housing, more quickly than we have been (and maybe even lower our standards a *tiny* bit), but this has not really been happening either, it is always "on the horizon" as the pace of construction continues to gradually trend upward (though very few of the buildings are "totally straightforward", and many are "luxury" residences with frivolous amounts of square footage per room/unit) while the population skyrockets in comparison, largely squeezing into older buildings that will inevitably be redeveloped soon and replaced with much more expensive, state-of-the-art ones.

Last edited by Hali87; Mar 13, 2023 at 8:01 PM.
     
     
  #4870  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:38 PM
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Atlantic Canada (or at least the Maritimes) also loves Canada and Ottawa a lot more than Quebec does.
I recall a conversation on this forum in which it was discussed that Quebec and Newfoundland could be a compatible country on some levels.

(As a bonus, we'd stop fighting over Labrador ...)

Honestly, in the event of Quebec sovereignty, if Newfoundland wanted to join, and I had to give my opinion, it definitely wouldn't be an immediate "no".
     
     
  #4871  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:43 PM
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But you are not going to get a situation where people around NS all spontaneously start speaking French and love divisive/populist Quebec politics.
"Spontaneously speaking French" and "loving divisive/populist Quebec politics" is not an indivisible pairing.

People in Meteghan speak French spontaneously for the most part (at least for now) and people in Caraquet all do and will likely continue to do so for a good while. Neither of them are involved in Quebec politics - divisive, populist or otherwise.

Though MonctonRad might allege that people in Caraquet are involved in divisive New Brunswick politics!
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  #4872  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 7:49 PM
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I recall a conversation on this forum in which it was discussed that Quebec and Newfoundland could be a compatible country on some levels.

(As a bonus, we'd stop fighting over Labrador ...)

Honestly, in the event of Quebec sovereignty, if Newfoundland wanted to join, and I had to give my opinion, it definitely wouldn't be an immediate "no".
No for me too. Why would Quebec (or NL) want that?

I also think that NL's contract with Hydro-Québec would remain valid no matter what happens with Quebec's status.
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  #4873  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 8:14 PM
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In politics there is a lot of catastrophizing which has probably worsened in recent years (with a neurotic Twitter-style mentality seemingly spreading through society), although I think the high water mark was around 2020-2021 and hopefully we won't go back there anytime soon.

Bill 21 is not something I would promote but in the scheme of laws it is not that major. Bill 101 is similar.

JT does not handle this stuff well either. Maybe I'm just missing the "good" things he says but part of being in charge of a federation is saying sometimes that while you don't agree with the politics of all the provinces they have autonomy. But note that he is the MP for Papineau and that affects his interest level in Quebec politics. If I remember correctly, Harper was less opinionated on Quebec cultural issues. Then the media have an outsized voice as well with entities like the CBC having a large weight and not necessarily being the voice of all of Canada at the moment.
     
     
  #4874  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2023, 8:41 PM
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I guess the punchline is that yeah, this does sort of happen everywhere all the time, and we just failed to realize that, and were too focused on "how things should be" to notice all of the "how things are".)
I think it is actually kind of unusual, geographically or historically, and a lot of areas in the developed world have more guardrails. Even cities in the USA which may have, for example, stronger rent control and tenancy laws (that have their own problems but do help the people who benefit from them). It sucks more than usual for some people in NS right now because this is new and society has not adapted. Plus the economy as a whole is very unstable.

You're describing a situation that a lot of people don't like right now so I would say the future politics and outcomes are up in the air. Canadians in general (especially young ones) are not in love with what is happening. And we don't know how Quebec society would evolve if something like the foreign buyer bonanza arrived there.

The attitude that there's some kind of government failure going on if people get priced out of an area, and the government should step in, is not universal. The "activation energy" for the NS government to get involved in housing seemed a lot lower than here in BC (whether they can fix things or are willing to make sacrifices is another question). The politics really don't appear similar to me. I wonder if one failure in NS will be that rural politicians view people getting priced out of the city as an opportunity.
     
     
  #4875  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2023, 1:06 AM
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Québec solidaire has stolen away a Liberal riding in central western Montréal in a byelection.

This was Dominique Anglade's old seat.
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  #4876  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2023, 1:43 AM
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Québec solidaire has stolen away a Liberal riding in central western Montréal in a byelection.

This was Dominique Anglade's old seat.
Wow. Je viens de voir les résultats. C'est toute une raclée!
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  #4877  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2023, 1:58 AM
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Wow. Je viens de voir les résultats. C'est toute une raclée!
Imaginez que le Québec deviendra comme les provinces des Prairies, où personne ne prend les partis libéraux provinciaux au sérieux.

=====
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmP8Gw9QTTc
En passant, l'accent acadien de la nouvelle écosse est pas mal étrange...
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  #4878  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2023, 2:08 AM
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Wow. Je viens de voir les résultats. C'est toute une raclée!
Le PLQ a peut-être moins de bastions très solides qu'on pense dans l'ouest de Montréal.
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  #4879  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2023, 2:12 AM
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Imaginez que le Québec deviendra comme les provinces des Prairies, où personne ne prend les partis libéraux provinciaux au sérieux.

=====
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmP8Gw9QTTc
En passant, l'accent acadien de la nouvelle écosse est pas mal étrange...
Je trouve très charmant l'accent de Georgette LeBlanc, ancienne poétesse officielle du Parlement.
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  #4880  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2023, 3:06 AM
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Imaginez que le Québec deviendra comme les provinces des Prairies, où personne ne prend les partis libéraux provinciaux au sérieux.
"... que le Québec devienne ..." (subjonctif après "que".)

(Je corrige parce que je sais que ça te rend service; je voudrais qu'on le fasse aussi, si j'étais à ta place. Ton français est vraiment impressionnant, en passant.)

Et je dirais que c'est l'inverse: ce sont les libéraux qui ne prennent pas les Québécois au sérieux (ç'a commencé sous Couillard et ça n'a fait qu'empirer depuis). Et... surprise... les résultats suivent.
     
     
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