Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oops. I meant that I wasn't being snarky!

Okay, then scratch my comment. Credit given for a typo...

That said, I'm still not overly positive that this is a great way to use my time/energy.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's the best we have to go on. Plus media and academia in the ROC, where again there is unanimity or near-unanimity against these two Quebec laws.

Now, I am also aware that at least in the case of Bill 21 polls show that between 35-40% of ROCers would favour something similar. Quebec still stands out from the ROC when it comes to support for it, but it's true the dichotomy does not appear as huge.

All of which also reveals though just how disconnected political, media and academic élites can be from the populace these days. (The ROC is far from unique in this respect.)

Keep in mind that there are probably many people in the mythical ROC who would align with at least some aspects of these concepts but wouldn't discuss publicly for fear of being skewered on social media (or even in public) and accused of one of the many social no-no's of the current world, even if that's not their intent. There can be real-world consequences to such things now, such as loss of job, etc. (just as a hypothetical possibility...)

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec on the whole is quite a bit more "activist" when it comes to identity issues, so maybe that's why my posts come off that way.

Your guys in the tavern in Rouyn-Noranda are more likely to have views about language, identity and Quebec-Canada politics, I can confirm to you. Is it everyone? Maybe not. But things tend to be more politicized here.

I guess maybe the tavern guys in Nova Scotia might get worked up about identity issues related to, I dunno, the influence of the US on Canada, but even at that...?

Another thing you might consider is that people self-filter depending on who they're talking to. Very very few people in Quebec (when sober) will talk frankly about politics, language, society, politics, etc. with English-speaking Canadians.

You get a different perspective on things if you speak unaccented Canadian French. Or have the time to make close francophone friends - and even then they may hold back.

Quite humbly, I do think I have a pretty good perspective of what ROCers think because I can speak unaccented English and also have a neutral first name like Paul. So when people introduce me as "Paul" in social gatherings in Toronto or Regina, pretty much no one would suspect that I am a francophone. Especially not if they think I am from "Ottawa".

Fair enough. I'll give you that, but my contention is that the R-N folks could probably give a rat's ass about what is important to Nova Scotians now. Which makes me wonder why there should be an expectation that people in other provinces would devote a great portion of their energy to the Quebec perspective - people tend to be more wrapped up in their own lives. I think it's great if they did, but not a reasonable expectation, IMHO. (Then there are those who will stick their nose into a Quebec thread just because they are actually interested)

Additionally, however, if it became public knowledge that Quebec was moving ahead with separation from Canada, suddenly that's their business and I would fully expect everybody in the country to have an opinion...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"My Quebec SSP thread includes OldDartmouthMark!"

Somebody print a bumper sticker.

Please don't!

[Ozabald]

Interesting discussion about what a Quebec separation scenario could look like. There were two items not mentioned; Quebec's share of the Canadian debt and airspace. If Canada wanted to play hardball, they could forbid any flights flying to/from Quebec to use Canadian airspace. That would mean a flight from Paris to Montreal would have to first travel south to cross the Atlantic and then loop northwards into New York ATC airspace. Flights would not be able to traverse the normal Europe-NA routes across the North Atlantic as the western half is Canadian controlled airspace out of Gander and Moncton.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Fair enough. I'll give you that, but my contention is that the R-N folks could probably give a rat's ass about what is important to Nova Scotians now. .

Meanwhile, in the ROC...

https://cdn.halifax.ca/sites/default/files/documents/city-hall/regional-council/220111rc1582.pdf

I actually don't know if Halifax ended up putting the money forward, but tons of other Canadian municipalities did.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Geez, you don't look at this for a couple of days and already I'm 5 pages behind the times. Don't you people have lives outside of SSP?

I can't speak for the others, but I'm... semi-retired, let's call it that

I'm not sure what I'm getting, though, TBH. You say it's a largely unfiltered view, but of whom? To me it largely sounds like the views of activists,

The sample of Quebecois you find on this forum is skewed: we're more educated, more worldly, better-traveled, and more Anglophile in general (as New Brisavoine pointed out, we're posting in fluent English on an Anglo discussion forum).

The typical Quebecois is way less connected than us to life and culture in Anglo North America.

So, yeah, if the average Quebecois is nice to my face but secretly despises me because I'm just another 'dumb anglo', it will destroy my opinion of the people that I've met... but I feel that I know people well enough that I can read sincerity in face-to-face encounters, and therefore I think much of what you and Lio post here is meant to be provocative, not educational. Maybe I'm wrong, but damn it's a sad state if I am.

Not at all. Acajack was completely right when pointing out the difference between "liking you" and "wanting to become you".

Answer those sincerely, please:

Would you want Canada to merge with the USA?

Would you want Canada to merge with Mexico?

Would you want Canada to merge with the UK?

...

"Huh, so it turns out OldDartmouthMark hates Americans."

"Huh, so it turns out OldDartmouthMark hates Mexicans."

"Huh, so it turns out OldDartmouthMark hates the British."


... you agree with those conclusions, or not? I think you see our point

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Interesting discussion about what a Quebec separation scenario could look like. There were two items not mentioned; Quebec's share of the Canadian debt and airspace. If Canada wanted to play hardball, they could forbid any flights flying to/from Quebec to use Canadian airspace. That would mean a flight from Paris to Montreal would have to first travel south to cross the Atlantic and then loop northwards into New York ATC airspace. Flights would not be able to traverse the normal Europe-NA routes across the North Atlantic as the western half is Canadian controlled airspace out of Gander and Moncton.

On the airspace question, nobody actually does that except for truly rogue states. I very very strongly doubt that Canada-sans-Québec or Quebec would ever try to pull anything of that nature.

They'd probably get in trouble with the ICAO or some other international body if they did.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Which makes me wonder why there should be an expectation that people in other provinces would devote a great portion of their energy to the Quebec perspective - people tend to be more wrapped up in their own lives. I think it's great if they did, but not a reasonable expectation, IMHO. (Then there are those who will stick their nose into a Quebec thread just because they are actually interested)
.

Is Quebec asking for people in the ROC to try and learn about the Québécois perspective, or simply demanding that ROCers do an MYOB?

It's more the latter 99% of the time in my observation.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is Quebec asking for people in the ROC to try and learn about the Québécois perspective, or simply demanding that ROCers do an MYOB? It's more the latter 99% of the time in my observation.

I find there is a general sentiment today (and it's not new) that "I'm unable to be happy until everyone else is as unhappy as I am" Someone asking for something that would empower them is automatically regarded with suspicion by others because that MUST mean they are "losing", in turn.

In reality, we have a lot to be thankful for and should be happy we can squabble over such things.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Which makes me wonder why there should be an expectation that people in other provinces would devote a great portion of their energy to the Quebec perspective - people tend to be more wrapped up in their own lives.

It's literally the other way around: in Quebec, there's a general expectation that people in other provinces would please-pretty-please NOT devote a great portion of their energy to trying to interfere with what Quebec is doing in its own internal affairs.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is Quebec asking for people in the ROC to try and learn about the Québécois perspective, or simply demanding that ROCers do an MYOB?

It's more the latter 99% of the time in my observation.

Exactly.

We don't ask you to understand us, we just ask you to not spend your municipal tax dollars trying to fight what Quebec democratically decides to do within Quebec. If you really have so much extra money that you don't know what to do with it, send it to Ukraine instead.

If the ROC could actually stop paying so much attention to Quebec, this would do wonders for strengthening federalism.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

On the airspace question, nobody actually does that except for truly rogue states. I very very strongly doubt that Canada-sans-Québec or Quebec would ever try to pull anything of that nature.

They'd probably get in trouble with the ICAO or some other international body if they did.

You are likely right. Though airspace access would be an item added to what would be a very long list of items at the negotiation table. And some of the items would deal with very obscure stuff. As an example, when Canada joined Newfoundland in 1949 , negotiations included margarine. The Terms of Union included a negotiated concession where Newfoundland was able to continue to manufacture margarine (produced there since 1883) and colour it yellow; while production was still banned in the rest of Canada at the time. As well, Newfoundland margarine producers were not allowed to "export" margarine to the rest of Canada.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Interesting discussion about what a Quebec separation scenario could look like. There were two items not mentioned; Quebec's share of the Canadian debt and airspace. If Canada wanted to play hardball, they could forbid any flights flying to/from Quebec to use Canadian airspace. That would mean a flight from Paris to Montreal would have to first travel south to cross the Atlantic and then loop northwards into New York ATC airspace. Flights would not be able to traverse the normal Europe-NA routes across the North Atlantic as the western half is Canadian controlled airspace out of Gander and Moncton.

Locking us out of each other's airspace would be even more annoying to Ontario than to Quebec -- all flights from Pearson to Europe currently pass through Quebec's airspace.

The Yankees could probably force us to all play nice, because I'm not sure they'd enjoy all the extra pointless traffic over New England.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's literally the other way around: in Quebec, there's a general expectation that people in other provinces would please-pretty-please NOT devote a great portion of their energy to trying to interfere with what Quebec is doing in its own internal affairs.

Exactly.

We don't ask you to understand us, we just ask you to not spend your municipal tax dollars trying to fight what Quebec democratically decides to do within Quebec. If you really have so much extra money that you don't know what to do with it, send it to Ukraine instead.

If the ROC could actually stop paying so much attention to Quebec, this would do wonders for strengthening federalism.

In my travels and discussions I very often find that ROCers (SSPers hate it when I say that!) are quite a bit more aware of goings-on in Quebec than about stuff that's going on in their own backyard.

Of course I am not an asshole so I am not the type to say "hey man what about starlight tours?" to dudes ranting about Bill 101 and the "language cops" in a bar in Regina.

And of course it's almost a meme that ROCers also seem to be more aware of highly mediatized US news stories than stuff happening closer to home.

Since my family is on the language divide and we have lots of anglophones and anglicized francophones, I have been exposed to that a lot in conversations over the years: Jussie Smollett, Casey Anthony, Scott Peterson, Kiki Camarena, Westboro Bible Church, Duke lacrosse team, kids in cages at the Mexican border, fires in California, Asian-Americans getting bashed, Iran-Contra, etc.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In my travels and discussions I very often find that ROCers (SSPers hate it when I say that!) are quite a bit more aware of goings-on in Quebec than about stuff that's going on in their own backyard.

To be fair, the term is quite dismissive. Very "you people".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

To be fair, the term is quite dismissive. Very "you people".

Look at it another way: you guys ROC(k)!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Nashe

To be fair, the term is quite dismissive. Very "you people".

Would you prefer "CanadiAns"? Interchangeable, to me.

(You could actually use that in common speech and everyone would find it normal and get what you mean: "c'est un point de vue très Canadian..." (literally "That's what typical ROCers would think..."))

[Acajack]

kwoldtimer has been pushing an alternative to the ROC: MOC = Most Of Canada.

Though that would make you guys MOCers!

Hey, that might not be a bad fit.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Would you prefer "CanadiAns"? Interchangeable, to me.

(You could actually use that in common speech and everyone would find it normal and get what you mean: "c'est un point de vue très Canadian..." (literally "That's what typical ROCers would think..."))

You do hear that in Quebec sometimes, though in my experience when it's used it's even less nice than "ROC". ROC is not really used in a mean way, though I won't deny it is dismissive in addition to being a verbal "division" (demarcation).

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I won't deny that your view exists out there. It always has. But it's a minority view in English-speaking Canada.

Also, these days woke-ish millennials and Gen Z people in the ROC also have it in for Quebec as they see it as a bastion of evil resistance to the Canadian diversity and multiculturalism dogmas.

It's not just old francophobic anglo boomers.

I haven't really seen much evidence of woke-ish millennials and Gen Z people outside Quebec in Canada seeing Quebec as being wrong and evil on the things you mentioned. I have definitely seen it in the media but not really in society.