Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also, these days woke-ish millennials and Gen Z people in the ROC also have it in for Quebec as they see it as a bastion of evil resistance to the Canadian diversity and multiculturalism dogmas. It's not just old francophobic anglo boomers.

Haha, definitely possible. But don't feel bad, they're angry at everyone, not just you.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I tend to be of the opposite view, at least when I am dealing with someone I consider to be a respectable interlocutor. (Maybe I ain't one?)

I didn't say that.

Originally Posted by Acajack

For example, it's not very interesting to me to talk to an Albertan who is all concerned about climate change and wants the oil and gas industry reined in, because I can get that view from any Joe Schmo here where I live. And double that if that climate-concerned Albertan tries to pass himself off as typical of most Albertans.

I find I learn more from the different-minded as opposed to the like-minded. Or at least from the like-minded who have insights into the different-minded based on where they live and who they rub shoulders with.

All I'm saying is that I prefer to converse with a person, rather than a representative of some imagined average group. Perhaps I'm missing the point that you have your ear to the ground and are right on point with what the mindset is in Quebec, and how we other provinces better watch out or we won't know what hit us...

Perhaps I should pay more attention, because the views you express seem more activist in nature, and from the perception of one who has an axe to grind with 'anglos'. If the entirety of the province feels that way then we're all fucked already - Quebec, along with the other provinces and territories of Canada.

Either way, then it seems like there's no point in me being involved in the discussion, as I will only view it as a mass of unreasonable people bent on destruction of the Country I've grown to appreciate... my posts will continue to become more despondent and confrontational, which will have a negative effect on my state of well-being. At the moment, I'm considering the better choice is for me to not participate in this thread, live my life as I've been doing, and if I hear official news that our country is about to fall apart, act accordingly. Otherwise, it's all just noise to me.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While there are certainly differences within the ROC in many respects, when it comes to opinions on Quebec (and a lot of these issues we are discussing which are Quebec-ROC discords), the ROC is virtually a monolith.

Then my opinion is that you have a very simplistic (and inaccurate) view of the other regions of your country.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You need to consider what the Plan B that is on people's minds is: independence.

Independence won't resolve everything but it will take away the perceived as ever-growing Canadian Trojan Horse that anglicizes Quebec from the inside.

Lots of places balance a robust single national language domestically and seamless openness to the global language that is English in dealings with the outside world. Québécois are allowed to travel internationally too, so they can see this!

"Perceived" is the key word here. IMHO.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not at all that they secretly despise you.

Do you understand the difference between "liking you" and "wanting to be you"?

(I didn't invent that phrase. I stole it from a political scientist I once heard at a forum. I think it may have been Stéphane Dion's father. He did not have quite the same views as his son.)

Good god. I'm not a fan of the tone.

Live and let live. You be you, I'll be me. I want the individual in Quebec to be who they are. Likewise for everybody else.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Then my opinion is that you have a very simplistic (and inaccurate) view of the other regions of your country.

Exhibit A: Quebec Bill 21. I am not aware of one single elected official - federal, provincial or municipal - outside Quebec who supports the bill or who has even expressed even an understanding of why it was adopted. Not one. Zero. Nenni. Nada.

I am pretty sure one could report a similar "goose egg" for Quebec Bill 96.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Good god. I'm not a fan of the tone.

Live and let live. You be you, I'll be me. I want the individual in Quebec to be who they are. Likewise for everybody else.

Sorry, it was meant to be snarky.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I didn't say that.



All I'm saying is that I prefer to converse with a person, rather than a representative of some imagined average group. Perhaps I'm missing the point that you have your ear to the ground and are right on point with what the mindset is in Quebec, and how we other provinces better watch out or we won't know what hit us...

Perhaps I should pay more attention, because the views you express seem more activist in nature, and from the perception of one who has an axe to grind with 'anglos'. If the entirety of the province feels that way then we're all fucked already - Quebec, along with the other provinces and territories of Canada.

Either way, then it seems like there's no point in me being involved in the discussion, as I will only view it as a mass of unreasonable people bent on destruction of the Country I've grown to appreciate... my posts will continue to become more despondent and confrontational, which will have a negative effect on my state of well-being. At the moment, I'm considering the better choice is for me to not participate in this thread, live my life as I've been doing, and if I hear official news that our country is about to fall apart, act accordingly. Otherwise, it's all just noise to me.

I don't think that our country is about to fall apart. It's survived probably worse crises. Though sometimes just barely.

But I think it's a bit naïve to think that the threat will ever be completely extinguished. And I even used to say that in much happier times.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OldDartmouthMark is probably right in that no one at the corner tavern in Eastern Passage is discussing this, but scratch the surface and raise the topics and see what happens.

Literally I was thinking that what these folks might be thinking in terms of Quebec's linguistic or separatist aspirations is probably similar to what the equivalent taverne-dweller in Rouyn-Noranda would be thinking about Nova Scotia's issues, over and above some upcoming game against the Mooseheads or perhaps the Tim Horton's commercial shot with Sidney Crosby...

Raise the topics, and people will likely shrug their shoulders and move on to something more relevant to their lives.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I won't deny that your view exists out there. It always has. But it's a minority view in English-speaking Canada.

How can you even say that? You really don't know what's in other peoples' minds and hearts. That's demonstrated in your posts here on a regular basis.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Exhibit A: Quebec Bill 21. I am not aware of one single elected official - federal, provincial or municipal - outside Quebec who supports the bill or who has even expressed even an understanding of why it was adopted. Not one. Zero. Nenni. Nada.

I am pretty sure one could report a similar "goose egg" for Quebec Bill 96.

I've discovered the problem. You think that these politicians are the 'voice of the people'.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry, it was meant to be snarky.

Precisely why I am thinking that this is not worth the energy it takes to keep up with it. It has become somewhat of a worthless exchange, and I'm sure we both have better things that we could be doing with our time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Precisely why I am thinking that this is not worth the energy it takes to keep up with it. It has become somewhat of a worthless exchange, and I'm sure we both have better things that we could be doing with our time.

Oops. I meant that I wasn't being snarky!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I've discovered the problem. You think that these politicians are the 'voice of the people'.

It's the best we have to go on. Plus media and academia in the ROC, where again there is unanimity or near-unanimity against these two Quebec laws.

Now, I am also aware that at least in the case of Bill 21 polls show that between 35-40% of ROCers would favour something similar. Quebec still stands out from the ROC when it comes to support for it, but it's true the dichotomy does not appear as huge.

All of which also reveals though just how disconnected political, media and academic élites can be from the populace these days. (The ROC is far from unique in this respect.)

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Now, I am also aware that at least in the case of Bill 21 polls show that between 35-40% of ROCers would favour something similar. Quebec still stands out from the ROC when it comes to support for it, but it's true the dichotomy does not appear as huge.

Hey, man, 35-40% agreement on anything in this day and age is a win, I'd say.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Perhaps I should pay more attention, because the views you express seem more activist in nature, and from the perception of one who has an axe to grind with 'anglos'. If the entirety of the province feels that way then we're all fucked already - Quebec, along with the other provinces and territories of Canada.
.

Quebec on the whole is quite a bit more "activist" when it comes to identity issues, so maybe that's why my posts come off that way.

Your guys in the tavern in Rouyn-Noranda are more likely to have views about language, identity and Quebec-Canada politics, I can confirm to you. Is it everyone? Maybe not. But things tend to be more politicized here.

I guess maybe the tavern guys in Nova Scotia might get worked up about identity issues related to, I dunno, the influence of the US on Canada, but even at that...?

Another thing you might consider is that people self-filter depending on who they're talking to. Very very few people in Quebec (when sober) will talk frankly about politics, language, society, politics, etc. with English-speaking Canadians.

You get a different perspective on things if you speak unaccented Canadian French. Or have the time to make close francophone friends - and even then they may hold back.

Quite humbly, I do think I have a pretty good perspective of what ROCers think because I can speak unaccented English and also have a neutral first name like Paul. So when people introduce me as "Paul" in social gatherings in Toronto or Regina, pretty much no one would suspect that I am a francophone. Especially not if they think I am from "Ottawa".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Hey, man, 35-40% agreement on anything in this day and age is a win, I'd say.

That's why I think François Legault is right when he constantly refers to (approx.) two thirds of Quebecers supporting these two bills. For stuff that's that controversial, it's considerable support.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I didn't say that.



All I'm saying is that I prefer to converse with a person, rather than a representative of some imagined average group. Perhaps I'm missing the point that you have your ear to the ground and are right on point with what the mindset is in Quebec, and how we other provinces better watch out or we won't know what hit us...

Perhaps I should pay more attention, because the views you express seem more activist in nature, and from the perception of one who has an axe to grind with 'anglos'. If the entirety of the province feels that way then we're all fucked already - Quebec, along with the other provinces and territories of Canada.

Either way, then it seems like there's no point in me being involved in the discussion, as I will only view it as a mass of unreasonable people bent on destruction of the Country I've grown to appreciate... my posts will continue to become more despondent and confrontational, which will have a negative effect on my state of well-being. At the moment, I'm considering the better choice is for me to not participate in this thread, live my life as I've been doing, and if I hear official news that our country is about to fall apart, act accordingly. Otherwise, it's all just noise to me.

New Brisavoine explained quite well here why you guys are in fact lucky to have us on this thread!

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think you're banging at the wrong door here. The Québécois in this thread are opposed to independence from what I understand, and those old enough were NON voters in 1995.

More generally, when I read some people here saying they are appalled by what the Québécois in this thread are writing and they are therefore going to abstain from reading this thread in future, I wonder whether they realize that the Québec forumers here are not only rather pro-Canada, but are also fluent English speakers, who know ROC well, and have even lived there (at least some of them). So these guys, far from being rabid sovereignists, are in fact far closer to you guys than the average Québécois. Imagine if you discussed these issues with the non-English-speaking Québécois who have never been to ROC and have very little knowledge of ROC!! Well they wouldn't even participate in this thread to start with.

So I find it odd to fume and accuse those Québécois who are closest and most open to ROC, and most favorable to a united Canada, i.e. those who participate in this thread.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

How can you even say that? You really don't know what's in other peoples' minds and hearts. That's demonstrated in your posts here on a regular basis.

I don't claim to be an oracle, but on these topics I don't know of many people on SSP who'd be as close to being an "insider" in both English-speaking and French-speaking Canada.

[Acajack]

"My Quebec SSP thread includes OldDartmouthMark!"

Somebody print a bumper sticker.