Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Loco101]

I was really hoping that this threat wouldn't just turn into arguing over sovereignty and languages.

I have been to every region in Quebec with the exception of Nunavik. Quebec is my favourite province to travel in and I find that so many people in other provinces have a perception of Quebec that is at least 20-30 years behind today. And of course they think that certain politicians or political parties represent and speak for the whole province's population or at least the francophone population which definitely isn't true.

I would be worried if Québec was wanting to put hard borders with bordering provinces but even the most harden separatist wants borders to remain open. So it's not something worth worrying or panicking about.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I was really hoping that this threat wouldn't just turn into arguing over sovereignty and languages.

I have been to every region in Quebec with the exception of Nunavik. Quebec is my favourite province to travel in and I find that so many people in other provinces have a perception of Quebec that is at least 20-30 years behind today. And of course they think that certain politicians or political parties represent and speak for the whole province's population or at least the francophone population which definitely isn't true.

I would be worried if Québec was wanting to put hard borders with bordering provinces but even the most harden separatist wants borders to remain open. So it's not something worth worrying or panicking about.

Without saying more, Quebec is quite nice, an original part of Canada, perhaps THE original part of the country as we know it today. But look who is being called the Anglo boogeyman etc., the ones who praise the benefits of a unified country, and would like to keep it together (that's patriotism). When nations divide however, you can't just automatically expect open borders, it doesn't work that way, no more than we have no open border with the US right now, even though our countries are friends and allies.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Architype

Here are some of the things to consider if Quebec separated. Quebec is better in Canada where it has already been granted distinct status in terms of language and some political issues.

- The reason Quebec is doing ok, or even well right now speaks to the fact that many in Quebec are bilingual, but with separation many more will be unilingual by choice, bolstered by more restrictive immigration policy and stricter language laws, and the economy will be severely affected.

- Quebec would lose clout as a small nation, and would graduate to becoming more dependent on France, becoming a satellite of France (re-colonization).

- the standard of living would go down without equalization payments from Canada.

- Natives would claim a great deal of the territory or control of the territory, this could become an international issue?

- Quebec would be more dominated economically and culturally by the US than it is within Canada. Canada would no longer be officially bilingual, reducing the comfort zone for Francophones.

Or, Quebec might become more bilingual, punch above its weight as a small nation, improve its standard of living, and make mutually beneficial agreements with its First Nations.

Speculation on the future seems pointless - nobody knows.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Architype

Without saying more, Quebec is quite nice, an original part of Canada, perhaps THE original part of the country as we know it today. But look who is being called the Anglo boogeyman etc., the ones who praise the benefits of a unified country, and would like to keep it together (that's patriotism). When nations divide however, you can't just automatically expect open borders, it doesn't work that way, no more than we have no open border with the US right now, even though our countries are friends and allies.

Or, the border might be completely open.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

Without saying more, Quebec is quite nice, an original part of Canada, perhaps THE original part of the country as we know it today. But look who is being called the Anglo boogeyman etc., the ones who praise the benefits of a unified country, and would like to keep it together (that's patriotism). When nations divide however, you can't just automatically expect open borders, it doesn't work that way, no more than we have no open border with the US right now, even though our countries are friends and allies.

The US border is a complex matter. The Canada-Quebec border would have its complexities too but they would be very different.

Canada also doesn't want an open border with the US. It's not just them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I was really hoping that this threat wouldn't just turn into arguing over sovereignty and languages.

I have been to every region in Quebec with the exception of Nunavik. Quebec is my favourite province to travel in and I find that so many people in other provinces have a perception of Quebec that is at least 20-30 years behind today. And of course they think that certain politicians or political parties represent and speak for the whole province's population or at least the francophone population which definitely isn't true.

I would be worried if Québec was wanting to put hard borders with bordering provinces but even the most harden separatist wants borders to remain open. So it's not something worth worrying or panicking about.

All things considered it hasn't been a bad thread.

Though I suppose people who were expecting reassurance that the traditional faultlines are fading away will be disappointed with it.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Actually since 2001. The percentage of people living in Québec whose first official language spoken is English has risen since 2001.

They were 17.0% of all Québec residents in 1971, then declined to 14.2% in 2001 (their historical lowest), but since 2001 they have risen at each census:
2001: 14.2%
2006: 14.8%
2011: 15.1%
2016: 15.4%
2021: 16.9%

Notice the big jump between 2016 and 2021. At 16.9%, the percentage of English as first official language spoken is now almost back to where it was when the PQ first gained ground in the early 1970s.

This would suggest that immigration in Québec (both international and interprovincial immigration) plays much more to the advantage of English than to the advantage of French. Between 2016 and 2021, the number of people in Québec for whom English (alone) was the first official language spoken rose by 13% (the entire population of Québec rose by only 4%), whereas the percentage for whom French (alone) was the first official language spoken rose by 2%, and the percentage of those for whom both English and French was the first official language spoken rose by 18%.

I wouldn't read too much into the 2021 census numbers given the pandemic-related wonkiness we saw in a number of the stats. Maybe a couple thousand Ontario Anglos were living/working remotely from their family cottages in Quebec. Maybe a couple thousand Francophone snowbirds decided not to return home as usual from Florida during the restrictions. Maybe a bunch of people didn't get counted at all. Who knows really?

I'd wait until we see the numbers from 2026 before hitting the panic button.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Architype

When nations divide however, you can't just automatically expect open borders, it doesn't work that way, no more than we have no open border with the US right now, even though our countries are friends and allies.

Open borders would be a favor that Quebec would be doing to Canada (and we're saying it would almost certainly be granted, since everyone here is fine with it under any scenario) as there would be some Canada both east and west of it. Also, Quebec would control Ontario's access to the ocean, whether via Seaway ships or rail/truck traffic for goods loaded/unloaded in Halifax.

We wouldn't need an open border to trade -- see how it works very well with the USA.

If the RoC would prefer a closed border, okay, but seems to me it'd be shooting itself in the foot more than anything else.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I wouldn't read too much into the 2021 census numbers given the pandemic-related wonkiness we saw in a number of the stats. Maybe a couple thousand Ontario Anglos were living/working remotely from their family cottages in Quebec. Maybe a couple thousand Francophone snowbirds decided not to return home as usual from Florida during the restrictions. Maybe a bunch of people didn't get counted at all. Who knows really?

I'd wait until we see the numbers from 2026 before hitting the panic button.

The census stats only tell part of the story, though. Or perhaps they confirm what people are feeling on the ground.

There are multiple accounts in social and traditional media about stuff like English-only service from businesses in very predominantly francophone areas.

A restaurant in Quebec City even opened with English only signs, menus and service. Admittedly a very isolated thing in that city at least, but there is a canary-in-the-coal-mine aspect to these trends that is not lost on people.

I realize that part of this may also be related to labour shortages, but even so, the socio-political effects are still real.

At least that's what some are trying to have us believe, though I haven't heard of other places in the world where a labour shortage all of a sudden leads to a noticeable drop in the ability to get served by businesses in the local language.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

One thing I find peculiar is that the Canadian left, has, in recent years, suddenly switched to being hostile to Quebecois/francophones/bilingualism.

I remember back in my student years in the late 2000s/early 2010s, all the NDP-youth types in Anglo-Canada were sympathetic to Quebec nationalism, very pro-bilingual, very supportive of ROC francophones, etc. Being opposed to bilingual rules or ranting about separatists marked you as a hard right populist.

I wonder why that changed.

Wokeness happened. The criteria that make woke people (who are mostly on the left) include race and religion but doesn't include language. Québec being ethnically mostly composed of white people and religiously catholics and former catholics (now secular), and since those groups coming very low in the woke hierarchy, it makes the left rooting for other groups than Québécois in the grand scheme of things. If Québécois didn't took back control of their own destiny during the Quiet Revolution, they might still be on the radar as victims to be defended by wokness (assuming there were still speaking French), but in traditional Canadian views, the British taking over New France is viewed as a blessing for French Canadians more than a hindrance, so Québec might still score pretty low on the hierarchy.

That and the very successful demonization campaigns of the last few decades against separatists (and anyone that is seem close to be a separatist) in the crusade to "save Canada" helped to create the actual climate (a similar demonization campaign was done in the United States against the Democrats with a lot of success too).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Open borders would be a favor that Quebec would be doing to Canada (and we're saying it would almost certainly be granted, since everyone here is fine with it under any scenario) as there would be some Canada both east and west of it. Also, Quebec would control Ontario's access to the ocean, whether via Seaway ships or rail/truck traffic for goods loaded/unloaded in Halifax.

We wouldn't need an open border to trade -- see how it works very well with the USA.

If the RoC would prefer a closed border, okay, but seems to me it'd be shooting itself in the foot more than anything else.

It will be argued that other highly interesting options would be available to Canada-sans-Québec so as to play hard ball with the République on other fronts, like building highways and railways through northern Maine, or *demanding* a corridor that would remain Canadian territory along the A-20 and A-85 routings (that happen to have railways running close by).

Seems like an awful lot of cash and trouble, in addition to being extremely unlikely, in order to stick it to the Frenchies for breaking up Canada.

Something that tinpot dictatorships in the Caucasus would do.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I wouldn't read too much into the 2021 census numbers given the pandemic-related wonkiness we saw in a number of the stats. Maybe a couple thousand Ontario Anglos were living/working remotely from their family cottages in Quebec. Maybe a couple thousand Francophone snowbirds decided not to return home as usual from Florida during the restrictions. Maybe a bunch of people didn't get counted at all. Who knows really?

I'd wait until we see the numbers from 2026 before hitting the panic button.

Generally you have to be a resident of a province to be counted as part of its population (i.e. driver's license, health care card and in the case of Quebec, taxes). Transferring your residency takes a minimum of 3 months and your previous province of residence is notified that you've left - so you can't just go back without having to redo the entire process.

It's not as simple as just being in a place for a few months in order to be counted. These numbers are legit.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Architype

Here are some of the things to consider if Quebec separated. Quebec is better in Canada where it has already been granted distinct status in terms of language and some political issues.

I am not a separatist, I prefer Québec to stay in Canada if and only if everyone stays in its lane. I am an autonomist and I want more power for the provinces in their fields and for Ottawa to basically mind its own business. That being said, Québec would do pretty good on its own.

Originally Posted by Architype

- The reason Quebec is doing ok, or even well right now speaks to the fact that many in Quebec are bilingual, but with separation many more will be unilingual by choice, bolstered by more restrictive immigration policy and stricter language laws, and the economy will be severely affected.

The number of bilingual Québécois is a factor in how well Québec is doing, but it is far from the only one. More accessible education, a diversified economy, the ability to look beyond Canada, subsidized daycare, Hydro-Québec, resources are more important factors. Why would Québécois be less bilingual after separation? Knowing another language would be as important as it is now. If being in a bilingual country was the only reason for a province to be bilingual, there would be much more French spoken in the ROC.

Originally Posted by Architype

- Quebec would lose clout as a small nation, and would graduate to becoming more dependent on France, becoming a satellite of France (re-colonization).

Why would Québec be more dependent on France? Just because Canada went from being dependant on England to being dependant on the United States doesn't mean that every state has to be dependent on another one. Is Brazil dependant on Portugal, or Ecuador on Spain?

Originally Posted by Architype

- the standard of living would go down without equalization payments from Canada.

Equalization payments help Québec but are not that essential. And they are on borrowed time: Québec is working on improving its economy and standard of living (which will contribute to reduce equalization to Québec) and Alberta is trying very hard to get rid of that, someday they will succeed.

Originally Posted by Architype

- Natives would claim a great deal of the territory or control of the territory, this could become an international issue?

It will be, but if it became an issue in an independent Québec, it will also become an issue in the ROC and in the USA. It might end up with 120 % of Canadian territory claimed by natives...

Originally Posted by Architype

- Quebec would be more dominated economically and culturally by the US than it is within Canada. Canada would no longer be officially bilingual, reducing the comfort zone for Francophones.

I thought you said Québec would be dominated by France... I don't see much difference being "dominated" by the United States than by the ROC. Decisions made in Toronto or New York can be as disconnected from the reality of Québec. Culturally, the USA are very present but we also consume French culture and especially our own culture. Culturally, Canada is more dominated by the USA than Québec would be if it became independent.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It will be argued that other highly interesting options would be available to Canada-sans-Québec so as to play hard ball with the République on other fronts, like building highways and railways through northern Maine, or *demanding* a corridor that would remain Canadian territory along the A-20 and A-85 routings (that happen to have railways running close by).

Seems like an awful lot of cash and trouble, in addition to being extremely unlikely, in order to stick it to the Frenchies for breaking up Canada.

Something that tinpot dictatorships in the Caucasus would do.

What's the hardest hardball possible from the RoC? Seems like Quebec would hold all the cards since it wouldn't need nor expect anything beyond its borders. If Canada prefers closed borders, no problem for Quebec. It controls the Seaway and if Ontarians and Maritimers prefer to pass through New England (whose borders would be less closed than Quebec's in the "hardball" scenario), doesn't change anything for us.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

One thing I find peculiar is that the Canadian left, has, in recent years, suddenly switched to being hostile to Quebecois/francophones/bilingualism.

I remember back in my student years in the late 2000s/early 2010s, all the NDP-youth types in Anglo-Canada were sympathetic to Quebec nationalism, very pro-bilingual, very supportive of ROC francophones, etc. Being opposed to bilingual rules or ranting about separatists marked you as a hard right populist.

I wonder why that changed.

At least recently, the wokesters who have dominated discourse on the Canadian left do not see eye-to-eye with Quebec mainstream opinion on many issues. The Elghawaby disaster (still not resolved!), Quebec's preference for healthy-levels of immigration and emphasis on integration, Roxham, Bill 21 to protect secularism of the state, Quebec's rejection of Trudeau's post-national state ideals etc.

As an act of petty revenge, they would prefer to assimilate and destroy the Quebec nation, to wipe out any dissenting voices that dares to go against their doctrine. It's their modus operandi, as many commentators like Bill Maher have pointed out.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I was really hoping that this threat wouldn't just turn into arguing over sovereignty and languages.

Just noticed your typo, are you talking about the thread of sovereignty (i.e. this one) or the threat of sovereignty?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

... so as to play hard ball with the République on other fronts, like building highways and railways through northern Maine,

You probably said this reflexively because it's what's usually floated to bypass Cabano and Edmunston (resulting in a much shorter and much more direct route), but if you wanted to go around Quebec entirely, it wouldn't be through northern Maine. You'd have to go through the Appalachians in NH and VT, then over Lake Champlain and across the northern part of New York state, to connect to Cornwall.

Right now there's absolutely no good freeway connection on the U.S. side between Cornwall and either of Houlton/Calais, so a lot of it would have to be built (and the Americans don't need it...)




(Also, if you guys want the closed borders scenario, you should have told us before we did A-85! )

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

You probably said this reflexively because it's what's usually floated to bypass Cabano and Edmunston (resulting in a much shorter and much more direct route), but if you wanted to go around Quebec entirely, it wouldn't be through northern Maine. You'd have to go through the Appalachians in NH and VT, then over Lake Champlain and across the northern part of New York state, to connect to Cornwall.

Right now there's absolutely no good freeway connection on the U.S. side between Cornwall and either of Houlton/Calais, so a lot of it would have to be built (and the Americans don't need it...)

Oh yeah, my bad exactly.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

At least recently, the wokesters who have dominated discourse on the Canadian left do not see eye-to-eye with Quebec mainstream opinion on many issues. The Elghawaby disaster (still not resolved!), Quebec's preference for healthy-levels of immigration and emphasis on integration, Roxham, Bill 21 to protect secularism of the state, Quebec's rejection of Trudeau's post-national state ideals etc.

As an act of petty revenge, they would prefer to assimilate and destroy the Quebec nation, to wipe out any dissenting voices that dares to go against their doctrine. It's their modus operandi, as many commentators like Bill Maher have pointed out.

There is some of that present for sure, though in general I don't actually think they're that nasty. Not yet anyway.

I'd say they're mostly just indifferent and tone-deaf to our concerns, though it's true they may become more hostile when we get too uppity.

And we also don't know what the future holds. It's definitely impossible that in the future an emboldened and self-righteous Canada might choose to flex a lot more muscle to "save" minorities like anglophones, Indigenous people and other minorities from the evil Québécois.

One thing that is true about woke and woke-sympathetic Canadians is they feel their cause is supremely virtuous. The fervour can be religious in nature: don't you dare question this, if you don't get it it's just because you're a rube who hasn't yet seen the light...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I am not a separatist, I prefer Québec to stay in Canada if and only if everyone stays in its lane. I am an autonomist and I want more power for the provinces in their fields and for Ottawa to basically mind its own business. That being said, Québec would do pretty good on its own.



The number of bilingual Québécois is a factor in how well Québec is doing, but it is far from the only one. More accessible education, a diversified economy, the ability to look beyond Canada, subsidized daycare, Hydro-Québec, resources are more important factors. Why would Québécois be less bilingual after separation? Knowing another language would be as important as it is now. If being in a bilingual country was the only reason for a province to be bilingual, there would be much more French spoken in the ROC.



Why would Québec be more dependent on France? Just because Canada went from being dependant on England to being dependant on the United States doesn't mean that every state has to be dependent on another one. Is Brazil dependant on Portugal, or Ecuador on Spain?



Equalization payments help Québec but are not that essential. And they are on borrowed time: Québec is working on improving its economy and standard of living (which will contribute to reduce equalization to Québec) and Alberta is trying very hard to get rid of that, someday they will succeed.



It will be, but if it became an issue in an independent Québec, it will also become an issue in the ROC and in the USA. It might end up with 120 % of Canadian territory claimed by natives...



I thought you said Québec would be dominated by France... I don't see much difference being "dominated" by the United States than by the ROC. Decisions made in Toronto or New York can be as disconnected from the reality of Québec. Culturally, the USA are very present but we also consume French culture and especially our own culture. Culturally, Canada is more dominated by the USA than Québec would be if it became independent.

You're more patient than me. And I am pretty patient on here!