Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would say that Québec and the ROC are much closer culturally than France and the UK.

We share the same country (state) after all and there are minority communities, Anglo-Quebecers and francophones outside Quebec, within each "solitude" that act as bridges towards the other.

You don't have any of that in the France-UK pairing.

So it stands to reason, given historical evolution, that it's safe to assume an eventual cultural merging, ditching the old world of antiquity in favour of a more assimilated Canadian culture. That cannot be described as a bad thing since such a coalescence is what it takes to achieve a full national identity and strength. To strive against a national identity is subversive and self defeating, so it's easily arguable that it is something we should be working towards, and not against.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Architype

So it stands to reason, given historical evolution, that it's safe to assume an eventual cultural merging, ditching the old world of antiquity in favour of a more assimilated Canadian culture.

I don't think so. French Canadian culture is of course closer to English Canadian culture than France to England, for historical reasons, due to conquest, subjugation, and then living in a common country after the dominion of Canada was founded. So from 1760 all the way to the 1950s there was a sort of rapprochement between French Canada and British (later English Canadian) culture, and detachment from France, but after the 1950s it seems to me things have gone in the other direction. With the Révolution tranquille, then the PQ governments, flight of Anglo-Quebeckers, more autonomy, etc, it feels like in many respects Québec has moved away from the rest of Canada in the past 50 years. At the moment, the two don't seem to be getting closer together (see the veil debate for instance).

Also, since the 1950s, Québec has absorbed many things from France that didn't exist before. Cultural links, travels have increased, whereas before the 1950s Québec was quite separated from France. When you read intellectual newspapers like Le Devoir, you can see that France's political and cultural life influences the debates in Québec (be it in terms of vocabulary, concepts, points of view) in a way it didn't before the 1950s, and in a way it of course doesn't in ROC, where France and its culture are essentially unknown beyond tourist clichés.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sounds like Blaine Higgs still owes the U de Moncton about 200-250 million dollars if he wants to keep up with what Quebec is doing for McGill.

Premier Higgs would be temperamentally disinclined to give UdeM an extra $250M. There's a reason why my nickname for the Premier is "Parsimonious Higgs". NB currently runs an $850M annual surplus and he doesn't want to spend any of it.

If however he was struck by a bolt of lightning and suddenly forget that he used to be an accountant, I would prefer (in the spirit of justice and equity) that he would take that $250M that you mentioned, and used it as seed money to establish an English language comprehensive university in Moncton.

The anglophone population in greater Moncton exceeds 100,000, yet there is no public anglophone university in the city. If you look at all the CMAs in Canada, there is not a single one where there is not a university extant or planned. The anglophone population in Moncton (large enough on its own to be considered a CMA) has been ignored by the province for far too long. This needs to be addressed. UdeM has three campuses (Shippegan and Edmundston in addition to Moncton). Meanwhile, UNB only has two campuses (Fredericton and Saint John). Where is UNB-Moncton???

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Talking of the Acadien parts of New Brunswick, here are the data for the Francophone counties of New Brunswick. Not looking good at all.

Data refer to this group of blue counties:



Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 58.1% >> 55.5%
- English: 41.2% >> 43.0%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 54.5% >> 51.3%
- English: 45.9% >> 48.3%

Main language at work:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 48.7% >> 46.3%
- English: 57.7% >> 59.9%

Louisana here we come!

It should be noted that three of the counties that you have appropriated into "Acadian New Brunswick" are in fact majority English speaking (Westmorland, Miramichi & Victoria). I would posit that by including these counties in your statistical base that you are introducing bias. Perhaps you should redo your analysis based only on the four majority francophone counties and you might discover that things aren't quite as dismal as you purport...........

There are three types of lies - lies, damned lies and statistics.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I don't think so. French Canadian culture is of course closer to English Canadian culture than France to England, for historical reasons, due to conquest, subjugation, and then living in a common country after the dominion of Canada was founded. So from 1760 all the way to the 1950s there was a sort of rapprochement between French Canada and British (later English Canadian) culture, and detachment from France, but after the 1950s it seems to me things have gone in the other direction. With the Révolution tranquille, then the PQ governments, flight of Anglo-Quebeckers, more autonomy, etc, it feels like in many respects Québec has moved away from the rest of Canada in the past 50 years. At the moment, the two don't seem to be getting closer together (see the veil debate for instance).

Also, since the 1950s, Québec has absorbed many things from France that didn't exist before. Cultural links, travels have increased, whereas before the 1950s Québec was quite separated from France. When you read intellectual newspapers like Le Devoir, you can see that France's political and cultural life influences the debates in Québec (be it in terms of vocabulary, concepts, points of view) in a way it didn't before the 1950s, and in a way it of course doesn't in ROC, where France and its culture are essentially unknown beyond tourist clichés.

So from that, I take it that Quebec is trying to remerge with the old world instead of looking forward to a newer one which is already extant and is most likely to persist. If I tried to hold up British culture as something we should aspire to and preserve (e.g. the monarchy), I think I would get reprimanded here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

So it stands to reason, given historical evolution, that it's safe to assume an eventual cultural merging, ditching the old world of antiquity in favour of a more assimilated Canadian culture. That cannot be described as a bad thing since such a coalescence is what it takes to achieve a full national identity and strength. To strive against a national identity is subversive and self defeating, so it's easily arguable that it is something we should be working towards, and not against.

I understand the sentiment but it is unrealistic and even arguably insincere as integrating the francophone element in the wider Canadian identity involves swallowing it up as opposed to creating a cultural fusion that respects its innate nature. Except for a few superficial folksy things that get appropriated and robbed of their true nature like poutine.

For example I have stopped counting the best Canadian album, book, film, etc lists (even done by the CBC) that do not include anything in French.

We are even more isolated from the mainstream (Anglo) Canadian culture than African-Americans are from mainstream US culture and our population share is almost 10% higher.

Yes I know that part of this is self-inflicted, but what can we do? Sometimes it is a question of basic survival.

So forgive us if we are not that enthusiastic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Premier Higgs would be temperamentally disinclined to give UdeM an extra $250M. There's a reason why my nickname for the Premier is "Parsimonious Higgs". NB currently runs an $850M annual surplus and he doesn't want to spend any of it.

If however he was struck by a bolt of lightning and suddenly forget that he used to be an accountant, I would prefer (in the spirit of justice and equity) that he would take that $250M that you mentioned, and used it as seed money to establish an English language comprehensive university in Moncton.

The anglophone population in greater Moncton exceeds 100,000, yet there is no public anglophone university in the city. If you look at all the CMAs in Canada, there is not a single one where there is not a university extant or planned. The anglophone population in Moncton (large enough on its own to be considered a CMA) has been ignored by the province for far too long. This needs to be addressed. UdeM has three campuses (Shippegan and Edmundston in addition to Moncton). Meanwhile, UNB only has two campuses (Fredericton and Saint John). Where is UNB-Moncton???

Mount Allison is in Sackville and serves as Moncton's anglophone university. At 30 minutes away it is surely as close or closer than most people in the GTA are to York or U of T.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

So from that, I take it that Quebec is trying to remerge with the old world instead of looking forward to a newer one which is already extant and is most likely to persist. If I tried to hold up British culture as something we should aspire to and preserve (e.g. the monarchy), I think I would get reprimanded here.

It is not a question of old world vs new world. Quebec is no more old world than, say, Brazil is. It's just a question of having different influences.

(And British influences are still significant in Canada and even the US.)

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It is not a question of old world vs new world. Quebec is no more old world than, say, Brazil is. It's just a question of having different influences.

(And British influences are still significant in Canada and even the US.)

It seems innate in us to reach for something more exotic than we see ourselves as being. It's also sad to see things that way, considering we possess the second largest political entity in the world, with one of the brightest futures, so automatically have responsibility to suit, while ignoring the whole of what it should intrinsically be. Our responsibility to the country which we have in reality is more important than the preservation of some outmoded ideal of old world culture.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Mount Allison is in Sackville and serves as Moncton's anglophone university. At 30 minutes away it is surely as close or closer than most people in the GTA are to York or U of T.

In some ways yes, but, it is 30 minutes from Moncton at 120 km/hr on an expressway frequently icy and snow covered in the winter. One of my three sons went to MTA, and road conditions were enough of a concern that he lived in residence or in an apartment in Sackville rather than commute. There are not that many Moncton students that commute to MTA. Living in Sackville adds $40-50,000 to the cost of a university education to Anglo Monctonians.

Also, MTA is more of a small national Ivy League liberal arts university than a provincial comprehensive university. There are no professional programs and virtually no graduate programs. MTA has very high standards, limited enrolment and, it is difficult to get into. It is a fine university, but doesn’t really fulfill the needs of anglophone Moncton.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Architype

So it stands to reason, given historical evolution, that it's safe to assume an eventual cultural merging, ditching the old world of antiquity in favour of a more assimilated Canadian culture. That cannot be described as a bad thing since such a coalescence is what it takes to achieve a full national identity and strength. To strive against a national identity is subversive and self defeating, so it's easily arguable that it is something we should be working towards, and not against.

One could argue that the canadian indentity is moving faster toward the american one than the québécois indentity is moving toward the Canadian one.

If we are to be forced into an indentity that is not our own, why chose a temporary one instead than the most powerful one?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I don't think so. French Canadian culture is of course closer to English Canadian culture than France to England, for historical reasons, due to conquest, subjugation, and then living in a common country after the dominion of Canada was founded. So from 1760 all the way to the 1950s there was a sort of rapprochement between French Canada and British (later English Canadian) culture, and detachment from France, but after the 1950s it seems to me things have gone in the other direction. With the Révolution tranquille, then the PQ governments, flight of Anglo-Quebeckers, more autonomy, etc, it feels like in many respects Québec has moved away from the rest of Canada in the past 50 years. At the moment, the two don't seem to be getting closer together (see the veil debate for instance).

Also, since the 1950s, Québec has absorbed many things from France that didn't exist before. Cultural links, travels have increased, whereas before the 1950s Québec was quite separated from France. When you read intellectual newspapers like Le Devoir, you can see that France's political and cultural life influences the debates in Québec (be it in terms of vocabulary, concepts, points of view) in a way it didn't before the 1950s, and in a way it of course doesn't in ROC, where France and its culture are essentially unknown beyond tourist clichés.

If this is the case then, I ask why is there concern about the loss of French culture and language in Quebec? Why would there be a need to separate from the country of which they are an important part, given the trajectory of the province to having more in common with France than Canada?

Open question(s):
What do the young people in Quebec think about this? After all, they are the future, and if they get influences from 'anglo' sources (i.e. music, popular shows, etc.), do they buy into the idea of their society moving towards becoming more insular and less-connected to the world around them? Is it just a bunch of older people telling younger people how they should live, or is Quebec society moving toward an Anglophone-free existence as a whole, with the consensus being equal among young and old?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Architype

If I tried to hold up British culture as something we should aspire to and preserve (e.g. the monarchy), I think I would get reprimanded here.

Not at all. Or at least, certainly not by us.

Interesting how your natural way of thinking is so alien to us, and vice versa.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

If this is the case then, I ask why is there concern about the loss of French culture and language in Quebec? Why would there be a need to separate from the country of which they are an important part, given the trajectory of the province to having more in common with France than Canada?

Open question(s):
What do the young people in Quebec think about this? After all, they are the future, and if they get influences from 'anglo' sources (i.e. music, popular shows, etc.), do they buy into the idea of their society moving towards becoming more insular and less-connected to the world around them? Is it just a bunch of older people telling younger people how they should live, or is Quebec society moving toward an Anglophone-free existence as a whole, with the consensus being equal among young and old?

These are good questions. Quebec exists as a cultural and economic island in a sea of Anglo dominance, and that would not change even if it became independent.

Originally Posted by lio45

Not at all. Or at least, certainly not by us.

Interesting how your natural way of thinking is so alien to us, and vice versa.

I am being a bit provocative of course, but the consensus, perhaps for good reason, is moving away from Britain more than ever before. If Quebec is moving closer to France then that's an anomaly in the new western world. Frankly, I would not mind the emphasis on preservation of French language and culture at all, it's the political fuckery that I have a problem with.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At this point I expect to live long enough to see Canada try and weasel its way out of French as an official language (at least in the way the linguistic duality plays out now) and that things will start to be scaled back. (We're already seeing the early signs of this.)

I am sure we will hear the same type of historically revisionist denials we always hear, i.e. that there never really was a formal long-term to commitment to bilingualism, or something like that.

Bill 96?

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Architype

I am being a bit provocative of course, but the consensus, perhaps for good reason, is moving away from Britain more than ever before. If Quebec is moving closer to France then that's an anomaly in the new western world. Frankly, I would not mind the emphasis on preservation of French language and culture at all, it's the political fuckery that I have a problem with.

Moving away from France doesn't necessarily mean moving closer to English Canada or to the United States. It can mean moving in our own direction altogether.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Moving away from France doesn't necessarily mean moving closer to English Canada or to the United States. It can mean moving in our own direction altogether.

What if we want you to?
The South Shore is ours.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by TWAK

What if we want you to?
The South Shore is ours.

The good news is that you don't get to decide.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Moving away from France doesn't necessarily mean moving closer to English Canada or to the United States. It can mean moving in our own direction altogether.

There is a lot if misunderstanding here. Influence from France has grown in Québec in the past years and decades.

But Québec is Québec - it is not a pseudo France in America, and not the same as Anglo-Canada except in French or the same as the US except in French.

It has different Influences than Anglo-Canada does, and in different doses, and of course a lot of its own homegrown stuff as well.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Maybe it is because ROCers are unable to balance influences, and for example went from all-in on the British one to ditching it and going all-in on the American one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

If this is the case then, I ask why is there concern about the loss of French culture and language in Quebec? Why would there be a need to separate from the country of which they are an important part, given the trajectory of the province to having more in common with France than Canada?

Open question(s):
What do the young people in Quebec think about this? After all, they are the future, and if they get influences from 'anglo' sources (i.e. music, popular shows, etc.), do they buy into the idea of their society moving towards becoming more insular and less-connected to the world around them? Is it just a bunch of older people telling younger people how they should live, or is Quebec society moving toward an Anglophone-free existence as a whole, with the consensus being equal among young and old?

I live with young people just above the voting age. They are not passionate about defending Québec and its identity, and not at all eager for it to become independent. That said you would be mistaken if you believe they see being part of the same country as ROCers as some fantastic window on the wider world and all its treasures. (Note that quite a few people in their extended family are anglophone ROCers, so they have more exposure to the ROC than most Québécois kids. They also grew up right next to Ontario.)

Generally speaking they have very little interest in ROC culture that isn't internationally packaged. Their relationship to Drake and The Weeknd is the same as it would be if they were in Sweden.

Their views of the ROC and its culture in that sense are not really that different from that of older Québécois. That it is not really that interesting and a pale imitation of the real deal in the US.