Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's not happening tonorrow (and may not ever) but in terms of what-ifs people might want to consider what happens if Quebec eventually becomes the most affluent province in the country.

Exactly my point. As you say, independence is typically never mostly a matter of finances, but at the same time, everything else being equal, good finances relative to the rest of the country always boost the idea of independence, while bad finances relative to the rest of the country always hinder the idea of independence.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Jesus Christ - the anglophone and allophone population of Quebec is less than 20%, and virtually all of Quebec outside of metropolitan Montreal is pur laine old stock French. Do you really think that in a couple of generations that the last French speaking Quebecers will be preparing to shuffle off this mortal coil???

You really are an agent provocateur. You have no skin in this game. You are from France. Why does this matter so much to you???

The only linguistic group in Quebec that is in peril is the anglophone community, some of which have roots in the province going back 250 years. Does this not count for something???

Things can change fast. I read books in high school written in beautiful French by people my parents' age from Louisiana. There is no French language literature to speak of in Louisiana today.

In my lifetime largish communities and regions in Canada have switched from having French to English as the main language, or vice versa even.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Things can change fast. I read books in high school written in beautiful French by people my parents' age from Louisiana. There is no French language literature to speak of in Louisiana today.

In my lifetime largish communities and regions in Canada have switched from having French to English as the main language, or vice versa even.

This would never happen in Quebec. The French fact is just too large, too predominant and too powerful. To predict the demise of the French fact in Quebec in reasonably foreseeable time horizons borders on hysteria and paranoia.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This would never happen in Quebec. The French fact is just too large, too predominant and too powerful. To predict the demise of the French fact in Quebec in reasonably foreseeable time horizons borders on hysteria and paranoia.

You may indeed be right but why would we still idly sit by and watch things erode for us anyway? The stats don't lie.

After 5% it's 10, and after 10 it's 20, and so on.

They used to say the exact same thing about places I used to live in outside Quebec.

[Acajack]

They also used to say that Bill 101 was unncessary overkill and now everyone agrees it was needed to save French, and did just that.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You may indeed be right but why would we still idly sit by and watch things erode for us anyway? The stats don't lie.

After 5% it's 10, and after 10 it's 20, and so on.

They used to say the exact same thing about places I used to live in outside Quebec.

So the answer is extermination then. Or, perhaps in other words, the final solution...............

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

So the answer is extermination then. Or, perhaps in other words, the final solution...............

You are better than this.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Lol, PEI wouldn't be getting two senators to itself, if the Maritimes joined the USA it's obvious they'd be admitted as a single state. Maybe even merged into Maine, if that's what's required (and if Maritimers still prefer that to being the Alaska of Canada) so that the balance in the Senate is fully untouched.

The GOP would have nearly no objections to the latter scenario, especially since Maine already allows separate districts in Presidential elections (only state along with Nebraska to do that).

As if the Acadiens are ever going to accept being swallowed by the US, and on top of that not have le Nouveau-Brunswick anymore and depend from Maine!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

As if the Acadiens are ever going to accept being swallowed by the US, and on top of that not have le Nouveau-Brunswick anymore and depend from Maine!

As if they'd do any better if NB was its own U.S. state.

In this scenario, they could become Americans (just like everyone in New England right now who has Quebecois roots; a significant percentage) or else move to the other side of Baie des Chaleurs. In the long run, they'd be safer living in the maritime-oriented parts of an independent Quebec than they are right now anyway.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You are better than this.

Yes, I regretted typing it once I submitted it. I apologize.

But you must admit that current Quebec policies are designed to marginalize the anglophone community to the point of complete irrelevance.

What will Quebec do to world class anglophone institutions like McGill University? Will they receive progressively diminishing funding levels into the future to the point that the faculty begins to leave and the student body withers away? Will there be a McGill University in 100 years???

This is what I fear is closer to becoming a fact than the death of the French language in Quebec.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This is what I fear is closer to becoming a fact than the death of the French language in Quebec.

Stats show exactly the opposite.

Between the 2011 and 2021 censuses, the number of people living in Québec whose mother tongue was English rose from 700,415 in 2011 to 843,945 in 2021. As a result, their share in the total population of Québec rose from 9.0% in 2011 to 10.0% in 2021.

The number of people living in Québec for whom English was the language most spoken at home rose from 912,360 in 2011 to 1,111,670 in 2021. That means their share in the total population of Québec rose from 11.7% in 2011 to 13.2% in 2021.

The number of workers in Québec for whom English is the main language at work rose from 675,165 in 2011 to 798,800 in 2021. That means their share in the total number of workers in Québec rose from 17.4% in 2011 to 19.5% in 2021.

It is English that is in the ascendancy in Québec, and French that is threatened, not the other way around! Only 10.0% of the population of Québec have English as their native tongue, but 19.5% work in an environment where English is the main language at work. Try to process that...

[New Brisavoine]

Stats for Québec:

Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 79.7% >> 77.8%
- English: 9.0% >> 10.0%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 82.5% >> 81.0%
- English: 11.7% >> 13.2%

Main language at work:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 87.6% >> 85.3%
- English: 17.4% >> 19.5%

French is on the retreat whatever the metric considered.

[New Brisavoine]

Stats for the island of Montréal:

Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 50.2% >> 49.3%
- English: 19.1% >> 20.9%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 56.0% >> 55.0%
- English: 27.6% >> 30.0%

Main language at work:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 70.8% >> 67.4%
- English: 38.9% >> 42.1%

At current rates, it's only a question of time before English is more spoken than French in Montréal. When that happens, it's game over for the French language in the entire province of Québec (there isn't the Catholic church and the vibrant rural life that existed back in the days when Montréal was majority Anglophone to save French in the rest of Québec if Montréal becomes majority Anglophone again).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by lio45

Sorry you found it offensive; though I must say, your "we'd have to start to all get loads of guns if we got integrated into the USA" comment really DID make me think of that.

Anyway, my apologies.

Sorry you couldn't understand why that might be offensive. No worries, though. No harm no foul... it's only words after all. Apology accepted and appreciated.

My firearm skills comment was just a sarcastic jab at the US gun culture, FWIW, of which the NS shooter piece of shit was a part. No need to comment further... that guy is best left a forgotten loser.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That would mean 8 solid Democrat senators in the US Senate, tilting the majority in favor of the Democrats there. No way the Republicans are EVER going to agree to that.

As I said, it would depend upon the political makeup/climate of the govt at the time, and their perceived value of such a thing. I agree that they probably wouldn't even blink an eye at it unless it was an 'offer they couldn't refuse'... a sweet deal that was so good they'd be foolish to turn it down. Or, perhaps there's intrinsic value to locking down control of the northern area of the eastern seaboard. Right now it works for them as we are basically their puppet, depending upon them for military support.

We can debate it all day long, but won't know for sure unless it ever happens, which it won't. In the end it's just interesting fodder for conversation.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

What is the basis for the assumption that the USA would want to annex part(s) of Canada? Still working on Manifest Destiny?

It's just conversation. Somebody mentioned the idea of the smouldering remains of a Quebec-free 'ROC' being swallowed up by our neighbour to the south, and that brings forth other ideas. I can't speak for you, but I use this forum to throw some of my thoughts against the wall and see where they land.

I find that interesting, and sometimes useful. YMMV.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Workplaces like schools already have dress codes and for example teachers cannot wear ballcaps. What the law does is say that religion cannot be used to get exempted from the same rules everyone else must aide by.

As somebody who is not overly religious, I can still understand how important religion is to some. Most of us can understand that there are many cases where religion and culture are almost interchangeable, where religion and culture are inseparable.

So, while a government (as a voice of its people) can qualify something as a dress code limitation, the people who are most affected by such actions see it as a government-led limitation on their culture. It's kind of ironic that the people who are shouting the loudest about their culture being limited or suppressed don't seem to understand the hypocrisy of this.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by lio45

Lol, PEI wouldn't be getting two senators to itself, if the Maritimes joined the USA it's obvious they'd be admitted as a single state. Maybe even merged into Maine, if that's what's required (and if Maritimers still prefer that to being the Alaska of Canada) so that the balance in the Senate is fully untouched.

The GOP would have nearly no objections to the latter scenario, especially since Maine already allows separate districts in Presidential elections (only state along with Nebraska to do that).

Yup.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

We can debate it all day long, but won't know for sure unless it ever happens, which it won't. In the end it's just interesting fodder for conversation.

The question of Quebec’s independence is a very real one, it’s far from only theoretical.

The question of what the Cut-Off Maritimes would prefer to do in this case is therefore just as “real”, unless there’s one clear option that’s ahead of all others in most Maritimers’ minds (in which case, I agree, it’s not really a question).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

The question of Quebec’s independence is a very real one, it’s far from only theoretical.

The question of what the Cut-Off Maritimes would prefer to do in this case is therefore just as “real”, unless there’s one clear option that’s ahead of all others in most Maritimers’ minds (in which case, I agree, it’s not really a question).

Well, the northern colonies were "pre-approved" for membership in the United States during the First Continental Congress (it was not mentioned in the Second Continental Congress). I wonder if we could petition the USA for entry based on this pre-approval from the first congress???