Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

But you are the one who brought up the (cost) of the ferry connecting NL to the mainland. That's where the 'money discussion' originated.

Are you saying that you are an "ROCer"? (Though technically I suppose you are, but defintely not in spirit... )

Haha! You sneaky devil!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Oh, the debate is primarily a passionate one regarding how one sees oneself in the fabric of Canada, North America and the world. It is at it's core a matter of how one self identifies. Are you solely a Quebecois, a Canadian, or a combination of both?

As a general rule most ROCers prefer to have, and are passionate about having a unified Canada from coast to coast, including a Quebec that is a proud homeland for the French fact in North America. It is at the margins of this debate where there is controversy (ie - how the rump anglophone population is treated in Quebec, and whether or not an anglo-Canadian can migrate to Quebec and feel welcomed and comfortable).

I acknowledge that the debate in Quebec itself is somewhat more existential, and that the Quebecois feel differently about their status in Canada, and how minority populations should be treated. This is the dangerous terrain which could lead to the nation fracturing (especially if the Canadian PM and the Quebec Premier of the day are hostile and belligerent).

So, the debate is about perception and passion. At the end of the day however, if the decision is made to separate, then the debate will shift to a purely economic one - ie who gets what and who pays for what (just like in any divorce). And, just like in any divorce, there will be hurt feelings, anger and likely some bitter recriminations. Not many divorces are velvet ones. There will be hard feelings for decades. Don't expect otherwise.........

Agree!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So I guess if people can feel that strongly about lines on a map then they should be able to easily understand that people don't relish the idea of the actual people they are part of vanishing off the face of the earth.

You wouldn't disappear, but you would become another you, an Anglophone you.

That reminds me of a commercial the pro-independence side broadcasted at the time of the last referendum. A grandfather from Québec talks to his grandson in French, then the grandson turns towards his mom and says in English: "Mum, what is grandpa saying?" And you can see the grandfather looking very sad. That was a powerful commercial I thought.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You wouldn't disappear, but you would become another you, an Anglophone you.

That reminds me of a commercial the pro-independence side broadcasted at the time of the last referendum. A grandfather from Québec talks to his grandson in French, then the grandson turns towards his mom and says in English: "Mum, what is grandpa saying?" And you can see the grandfather looking very sad. That was a powerful commercial I thought.

Jesus Christ - the anglophone and allophone population of Quebec is less than 20%, and virtually all of Quebec outside of metropolitan Montreal is pur laine old stock French. Do you really think that in a couple of generations that the last French speaking Quebecers will be preparing to shuffle off this mortal coil???

You really are an agent provocateur. You have no skin in this game. You are from France. Why does this matter so much to you???

The only linguistic group in Quebec that is in peril is the anglophone community, some of which have roots in the province going back 250 years. Does this not count for something???

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

My mindset is: this is Canada. Take it or leave it. If any province wants to leave, the door is open.

I mostly agree in principle here, but in practice, the consequences of Quebec separating would be devastating for the Atlantic Provinces - there would then be no way to get between the East Coast and Ontario/ROC without crossing international borders. Not just for people but also for goods. I don't think 9-Provinces-Canada could last for more than a decade or two (at most!) before becoming 5-Provinces-Canada, or just falling apart completely.

There would also be potentially massive (certainly disproportionate) issues that would come up re: ROC-Francophones, and First Nations both inside and outside of Quebec's borders.

East of Quebec, it's hard to be aloof about it all, even if I think that in principle they should be allowed to be the masters of their own destiny or whatever. There would be way more consequences than most people acknowledge, and not just for Quebec.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by dleung

Or they flee Quebec because they're too Muslim to work as a teacher (hardcore Evangelicals ok though cuz no one can tell!)
Or they flee Arkansas because they're too female to never have an unwanted pregnancy
Or they flee Missouri because they're too black to get a mortgage

It's all exactly the same and fine right?

You cannot change being black, you can change being a woman but it is a rather heavy process. Religion is merely an opinion and it can be changed. But you don't even have to change it to work in a position of authority in Québec, you just need not to show it. Those positions of power need to be neutral from political or religious opinions and it has to show in the dress code. Religions don't make people above the law.

You could say that religion is more than opinion, it is a lifestlye. Well so is nudism, and you still need to get dress to work on a job (well, for most jobs at least).

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by dleung

A shared concept of human rights would be a good start. Would be weird to have refugees fleeing from one province to the next just because they can't have abortions, or wear a hijab, or run a business in either one of the official languages lol

What about getting medical treatment in your official language. This is done in Québec but it is at best a luxury in 8 provinces. And Québec is the racist one?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though in all honesty, being able to wear a hijab (or even a niqab or burqa) in all circumstances of one's life both public and private without exception, is probably seen as essential, basic, inviolable human right by a majority of Canadians now - at least outside Quebec.

So in that sense dleung isn't really that out of touch.

I don't think a majority of Canadians are really that approving of hijabs and they definitely aren't of niqabs and burqas.


The one thing that nobody has really questioned is how can clothing be confirmed as being a religious symbol? I have issue with people who want to hide and cover their faces. But is a hijab really something that much different than wearing a ball cap with a scarf and a rain coat? I'm surprised that nobody has challenged that yet. And many non-Muslim cultures and societies have females and even males that covered their heads when out in public but it wasn't anything religious.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by lio45

In the rankings of the deadliest mass shootings, Nova Scotia would be the sixth U.S. state, after Nevada, Florida, Virginia, Connecticut, and Texas, in that order. (The remaining 45 states never saw anything as deadly as Portapique.)

So, y'all would fit right in!

Sorry, but that is an extremely tasteless comment. I'm holding back what I really want to say to that.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by acajack

haha! You sneaky devil!

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It's not easy to answer a vague question like that, so I'd say yes, and no.

We are all allowed our own opinions here, so my opinion is that the needs of the country should be held at higher importance than the needs of any one province. If any province wants to push the limits of the constitution and the laws of Canada, then there should be due process with the understanding that there may be success, failure, or compromise (which is success by my metric).

IMHO, Quebec already has quite a bit of leeway to do its own thing, and appears to push the limits more than any other province... and it has "Canada" to use as a hostage whenever things aren't going in some particular way.

Regardless... all I want is 'my country' (which includes Quebec) to remain as one, so nobody should be surprised by my previous post. But it doesn't matter what I want, so maybe I will someday be living in the 51st state of Atlantica. Guess I better brush up on my firearm skills...

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I would support more provincial autonomy in general- for all provinces - but I would be opposed to giving Quebec unique autonomous rights, even if thats necessary to keep Quebec inside Canada.

My mindset is: this is Canada. Take it or leave it. If any province wants to leave, the door is open.

I am all for more decentralization for everyone, I have certainly no problem with other provinces wanting the same powers as Québec. What I don't want is to get stuck with more power in Ottawa because an handfull of provinces don't want it. A one-size-fits-all federation usually fits no one (except Ontario for some reasons, but that must be a coincidence...).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Actually, wouldn't the entry of ROC in the US tilt the US in the liberal camp? For that very reason, the Republicans will never agree to the entry of ROC in the US.

I doubt it, actually, and in fact I was suggesting that the Atlantic Provinces (NS, NB, PEI, NL) would have no choice but to join the US, as a separated Quebec could physically block access to the other Canadian provinces. The population of the Atlantic provinces is under 2.5M, and I'm sure the US would limit the voting clout of a little part of Canada absorbed into their country of 330ish million by playing with the electoral college boundaries or something of the sort.

Besides, whatever perceived political leaning Canada would bring to the US could be handled differently depending upon which political party had control over the house and the senate at the time that this 'opportunity' presented itself.

Increased territory on the eastern seaboard would definitely be a benefit to them. This includes benefits for military, shipping, fishing, natural resources extraction, etc.

One might consider that control of access to the St. Lawrence Seaway could be a side benefit should an economically stressed Quebec develop a dependence on a hostile nation...

But honestly, this is all a muse as it will never happen. Quebec isn't that dumb...

[kwoldtimer]

What is the basis for the assumption that the USA would want to annex part(s) of Canada? Still working on Manifest Destiny?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I don't think a majority of Canadians are really that approving of hijabs and they definitely aren't of niqabs and burqas.


The one thing that nobody has really questioned is how can clothing be confirmed as being a religious symbol? I have issue with people who want to hide and cover their faces. But is a hijab really something that much different than wearing a ball cap with a scarf and a rain coat? I'm surprised that nobody has challenged that yet. And many non-Muslim cultures and societies have females and even males that covered their heads when out in public but it wasn't anything religious.

Workplaces like schools already have dress codes and for example teachers cannot wear ballcaps. What the law does is say that religion cannot be used to get exempted from the same rules everyone else must aide by.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I doubt it, actually, and in fact I was suggesting that the Atlantic Provinces (NS, NB, PEI, NL) would have no choice but to join the US, as a separated Quebec could physically block access to the other Canadian provinces. The population of the Atlantic provinces is under 2.5M, and I'm sure the US would limit the voting clout of a little part of Canada absorbed into their country of 330ish million by playing with the electoral college boundaries or something of the sort.

That would mean 8 solid Democrat senators in the US Senate, tilting the majority in favor of the Democrats there. No way the Republicans are EVER going to agree to that.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Sorry, but that is an extremely tasteless comment. I'm holding back what I really want to say to that.

Sorry you found it offensive; though I must say, your "we'd have to start to all get loads of guns if we got integrated into the USA" comment really DID make me think of that.

Anyway, my apologies.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That would mean 8 solid Democrat senators in the US Senate, tilting the majority in favor of the Democrats there. No way the Republicans are EVER going to agree to that.

Lol, PEI wouldn't be getting two senators to itself, if the Maritimes joined the USA it's obvious they'd be admitted as a single state. Maybe even merged into Maine, if that's what's required (and if Maritimers still prefer that to being the Alaska of Canada) so that the balance in the Senate is fully untouched.

The GOP would have nearly no objections to the latter scenario, especially since Maine already allows separate districts in Presidential elections (only state along with Nebraska to do that).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Workplaces like schools already have dress codes and for example teachers cannot wear ballcaps. What the law does is say that religion cannot be used to get exempted from the same rules everyone else must aide by.

Exactly. The correct way to see these laws (and it's how nearly everyone here in Quebec views them) is that they finally close a loophole in the laws (that allowed "playing the religion card").

[lio45]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

But honestly, this is all a muse as it will never happen. Quebec isn't that dumb...

It came within a hair of happening, and that was back when Quebec wasn't doing too well economically.

Also, intelligence has nothing to do with it. It's like saying Anglos in Upper Canada "were too dumb" to join Americans in 1775-1776.

[Acajack]

It's not happening tonorrow (and may not ever) but in terms of what-ifs people might want to consider what happens if Quebec eventually becomes the most affluent province in the country.