Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think there is even one entertainment district (yet) within a five-minute walk of where the arena will be located, but yes this is still THE location. Can't be anywhere else.

I was thinking of Preston, Chinatown, Zibi, Vieux Hull, Hintonburgh, though I think 5 minutes was quite a stretch in hindsight. Let's say "reasonable walking distance", instead.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by esquire

When CanadInns Stadium was closed they just piled up stacks of that stuff in the concourse. Once the seats and turf were removed, it was about as much effort as running a thrift store.

I have seen a few of the old stadium seats end up in small town arenas, but very few considering that there were thousands and thousands of those things.

That option to stack them up in the concourse and set up a thrift store is not always an option. I'm concentrating on those situations in which they need to get out asap. Tossing 10,000 seats into a disposal bin is an expenditure. In my experience, there's always been a dealer for much odder things than bum supports to avoid paying for disposal. Surely, there are stadium seat buyers/sellers willing to take the entire lot. It's a win/win even if the offer per seat is next to nothing. Also, in my experience, the dealers have an international reach.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by JHikka

MLS in Austin is doing quite well, all things considered. I know some will scoff at the idea of MLS being in the same realm of Big 4, but the entire notion of Big 4 is being mostly thrown away now that there's the NFL and everyone else. I'm fairly certain MLS is closer to NHL than the NHL is to the other three. Anyway. The NHL was wise to get into Vegas early and have reaped the rewards of doing so. There's still a chance for Austin but i'd be surprised if they bite on that over somewhere like San Diego.

I agree about the MLS, it is very close to catching up and will surpass the NHL in less than a decade. It benefits from a lot more international attention/recognition in comparison to the NHL, so I think it will naturally get there. Getting to Vegas early is absolutely going to be the determining factor in the Golden Knights’ staying power. I think if the NHL goes there it will see the same result - Austin is a young, rich city with lots of transplants from other parts of the country. If a team gets there before the NFL or NBA, I predict there will be a similar success. They have Moody Center now, but I am not 100% sure what the full capacity is since I keep seeing conflicting information. Houston is a much tougher market given the competition that already exists, but it is huge at the end of the day.

San Diego is clearly a tough sports market given the NFL situation, but the city is planning on building a new NHL-sized arena, so anything is possible there.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

How many teams can a league get before it's too much? We want to be able to play every team at least once, while keeping the multi-game rivalries. Hope Quebec City won't be passed-up again, but it probably will considering the high-cost of a franchise nowadays. A second Toronto area franchise would be welcome.

I don’t see expansion having too many teams as a real problem. Every major league is starting to eye expansion to cash in on revenue increases - NFL is looking to 40 already, MLB and NBA are finally going to make the jump to 32, and MLS is rapidly going to be approaching 32 while also looking ahead to at least 34 at this point in time.

It’s not necessarily about the money for buying a franchise in the case of Quebec City. The most likely owner, Videotron, generates a revenue of $3.75B/year. They had no problem putting up the almost $600M back in 2015. The issue with Quebec City is potential operating income. It would most likely be on the lower end and comparable with Winnipeg, which only produces an operating income of a third of what Vegas/Seattle produce (~20M vs ~60M). Despite this, I don’t believe it will be passed up in the next expansion. They were ultimately “deferred” in their bid due to the desire to add two more western teams after making it all the way to the third round of scrutiny so I believe the league wants them, but it still trying to figure out how they fit into things.

I have noticed that many realistic expansion destinations coming up in the media from more official sources mention a lot of western division locations but no eastern ones except for Toronto/Hamilton and Quebec City. If they are planning on adding four new teams eventually, Toronto and Quebec both fit very well with two new western teams in Texas.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ The operating income difference, is that due to local cable deals? That is a massive difference!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

I agree about the MLS, it is very close to catching up and will surpass the NHL in less than a decade. It benefits from a lot more international attention/recognition in comparison to the NHL, so I think it will naturally get there. Getting to Vegas early is absolutely going to be the determining factor in the Golden Knights’ staying power. I think if the NHL goes there it will see the same result - Austin is a young, rich city with lots of transplants from other parts of the country. If a team gets there before the NFL or NBA, I predict there will be a similar success. They have Moody Center now, but I am not 100% sure what the full capacity is since I keep seeing conflicting information. Houston is a much tougher market given the competition that already exists, but it is huge at the end of the day.

San Diego is clearly a tough sports market given the NFL situation, but the city is planning on building a new NHL-sized arena, so anything is possible there.

MLS is poking around in San Diego, as well, although they still have a few other holes to fill before they move in, IMO. Detroit and Phoenix are the most obvious, then potentially Las Vegas and Sacramento, and then San Diego, maybe.

Originally Posted by ericmacm

I don’t see expansion having too many teams as a real problem. Every major league is starting to eye expansion to cash in on revenue increases - NFL is looking to 40 already, MLB and NBA are finally going to make the jump to 32, and MLS is rapidly going to be approaching 32 while also looking ahead to at least 34 at this point in time.

People in MLS circles are talking about 36 teams being on the horizon sooner rather than later.

I'm waiting to see which league is the first to bite on Mexico City, and whether or not that will happen before NFL London.

Originally Posted by ericmacm

I have noticed that many realistic expansion destinations coming up in the media from more official sources mention a lot of western division locations but no eastern ones except for Toronto/Hamilton and Quebec City. If they are planning on adding four new teams eventually, Toronto and Quebec both fit very well with two new western teams in Texas.

There's always Atlanta: Round 3.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

^ The operating income difference, is that due to local cable deals? That is a massive difference!

Gameday revenues would be a large chunk of that, as well as local corporate deals specific to the market, including broadcast deals. Think things like corporate boxes all the way down to tickets.

[Acajack]

What are the territorial rights like in Texas, ie with the Dallas Stars? Asking because there is always lots of talk about the rights of the Leafs (Hamilton, GTA2), Sabres (Hamilton) and Habs (Quebec City).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

People in MLS circles are talking about 36 teams being on the horizon sooner rather than later.

I'm waiting to see which league is the first to bite on Mexico City, and whether or not that will happen before NFL London.

Surely you are not talking about MLS in Mexico City, but one of the other US leagues?

[HomeInMyShoes]

Originally Posted by JHikka

There's always Atlanta: Round 3.

Bullwinkle: "This time for sure!"

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Surely you are not talking about MLS in Mexico City, but one of the other US leagues?

MLS does not need to expand to Mexico. They already have competition with Mexican teams in the form of Leagues Cup, with increasing collaboration between MLS and LigaMX, as well as operating under the umbrella of Concacaf.

MLB is usually the Mexico City bait. The Giants and Padres are playing there in April.

Originally Posted by Acajack

What are the territorial rights like in Texas, ie with the Dallas Stars? Asking because there is always lots of talk about the rights of the Leafs (Hamilton, GTA2), Sabres (Hamilton) and Habs (Quebec City).

Good reading on this subject here: https://sportslawnews.wordpress.com/...imous-consent/

Basically, maybe. The Leafs think they have a veto, whereas it's unlikely it would hold up in court if forced. NHL typically relies on 75% vote of BoG for new teams.

The Canadian Competition Bureau (CCB) analyzed the NHL’s policies in 2008 regarding potential antitrust issues with the relocation policies. The Competition Bureau aimed to determine if the 50-mile home territory rule was an undue restriction of competition. The CCB believed that the veto rule has not been in effect since 1993, precisely what Gary Bettman had stated in Dewy Ranch. Without the veto rule, the CCB determined that there is no legal issue with needing 3/4 of approval from the Board of Governors.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

It’s not necessarily about the money for buying a franchise in the case of Quebec City. The most likely owner, Videotron, generates a revenue of $3.75B/year. They had no problem putting up the almost $600M back in 2015. .

Québecor (the parent company of Vidéotron) is probably solid enough to pay for a team, though even if they're a bit short I am sure they can find other partners. The NHL unlike the NFL allows ownership groups does it not? It wouldn't be a problem putting together a group to own the Nordiques 2.0.

[OTSkyline]

For the sale of the Senators, wasn't one of the stipulations that the new team had to continue the relocation to Lebreton Flats downtwon? I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere, that they couldn't relocate them outside of Ottawa and needed to proceed with the downtown move..

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Good reading on this subject here: https://sportslawnews.wordpress.com/...imous-consent/

Basically, maybe. The Leafs think they have a veto, whereas it's unlikely it would hold up in court if forced. NHL typically relies on 75% vote of BoG for new teams.

Thanks. So if the Leafs' case is potentially flimsy, then Geoff Molson couldn't block the Nordiques 2.0 and Dallas couldn't block Houston or Austin.

Aside from lobbying their NHL BOG friends of course. Though not sure about lobbying's effect when hundreds of millions of new franchise dollars are on the table to share.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

MLS does not need to expand to Mexico. They already have competition with Mexican teams in the form of Leagues Cup, with increasing collaboration between MLS and LigaMX, as well as operating under the umbrella of Concacaf.

MLB is usually the Mexico City bait. The Giants and Padres are playing there in April.

s.

Funny how I don't see MLB as likely to put a team in Mexico. Mexico isn't that big a baseball country, unlike a few others in Latin America.

I'd see NFL first of course, based on Mexican market development and growth that's taken place in recent decades.

Then I'd see NBA due to global popularity and the "flash" factor. Even if basketball AFAIK doesn't have very deep roots in Mexico either. But it's en vogue. That's all that counts.

Agree on MLS and forget about NHL of course.

[esquire]

At the risk of veering off topic, I wonder how much leagues can expand before they start hitting the wall?

In theory, what prevents the NFL, NHL, NBA, etc. from growing to 40, 60, 80 teams?

They won't run out of players. We know that. If the leagues are willing to allow smaller cities and venues, like for instance a MLB team in TD Ameritrade Park in Omaha, then there is no shortage of cities that can probably handle it. Although it probably would lead to situations like the one faced by Canucks or Sabres fans becoming common, i.e. potentially living your entire life without ever seeing your team win a championship. That could be tough to swallow, but it would be a common scenario with 50+ teams.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

For the sale of the Senators, wasn't one of the stipulations that the new team had to continue the relocation to Lebreton Flats downtwon? I thought I remembered seeing that somewhere, that they couldn't relocate them outside of Ottawa and needed to proceed with the downtown move..

That's likely why they're weeding out potential ownership groups who are either noncommittal or flimsy on deadlines re: moving out of Kanata.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks. So if the Leafs' case is potentially flimsy, then Geoff Molson couldn't block the Nordiques 2.0 and Dallas couldn't block Houston or Austin.

I think the Leafs would have a better case for blocking Hamilton or elsewhere in the GTA than Montreal or Dallas based on proximity and directly sharing the same market, but I don't think the case is very strong.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Aside from lobbying their NHL BOG friends of course. Though not sure about lobbying's effect when hundreds of millions of new franchise dollars are on the table to share.

The Leafs would stand to benefit from GTA2 because they would be receiving a slice of the expansion fee directly (1/32th), as would every other team in any other expansion scenario. $1B divided 32 ways is roughly $31M/ea.

For Toronto (and presumably Buffalo if Hamilton is the expansion destination) they would have to, presumably, prove to the rest of the BoG that the new team would eat enough into their direct revenues that even their slice of the expansion fee wouldn't offset those losses. I'm skeptical at best for that sort of scenario being true.

Originally Posted by esquire

At the risk of veering off topic, I wonder how much leagues can expand before they start hitting the wall?

In theory, what prevents the NFL, NHL, NBA, etc. from growing to 40, 60, 80 teams?

We're going to find out one way or another.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by esquire

At the risk of veering off topic, I wonder how much leagues can expand before they start hitting the wall?

In theory, what prevents the NFL, NHL, NBA, etc. from growing to 40, 60, 80 teams?

They won't run out of players. We know that. If the leagues are willing to allow smaller cities and venues, like for instance a MLB team in TD Ameritrade Park in Omaha, then there is no shortage of cities that can probably handle it. Although it probably would lead to situations like the one faced by Canucks or Sabres fans becoming common, i.e. potentially living your entire life without ever seeing your team win a championship. That could be tough to swallow, but it would be a common scenario with 50+ teams.

At what point does a league have so many teams that it cheapens the product? Could the Sens fetch nearly $1B if the league had 40+ teams? With more teams, there's a chance multiple teams might be fore sale at the same time, there are more chances that numerous teams are struggle (as we've seen with Pheonix, Florida, Carolina and even Ottawa). At some point, the playoffs need to be expanded as fans will be frustrated that it becomes extremly hard to make the playoffs, let alone win the Cup.

Originally Posted by JHikka

That's likely why they're weeding out potential ownership groups who are either noncommittal or flimsy on deadlines re: moving out of Kanata.

I hope that's the case and the NHL heavily favours groups who want to build at the Flats.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks. So if the Leafs' case is potentially flimsy, then Geoff Molson couldn't block the Nordiques 2.0 and Dallas couldn't block Houston or Austin.

Aside from lobbying their NHL BOG friends of course. Though not sure about lobbying's effect when hundreds of millions of new franchise dollars are on the table to share.

I disagree. Support will come pretty easily as no owner wants to risk their legacy sharing their backyard with another team. There's so many more potential billionaire team owners in every US City since the turn of the century. The only thing that may top Toronto real estate appreciation is a major league team value LOL

[esquire]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

At what point does a league have so many teams that it cheapens the product? Could the Sens fetch nearly $1B if the league had 40+ teams? With more teams, there's a chance multiple teams might be fore sale at the same time, there are more chances that numerous teams are struggle (as we've seen with Pheonix, Florida, Carolina and even Ottawa). At some point, the playoffs need to be expanded as fans will be frustrated that it becomes extremly hard to make the playoffs, let alone win the Cup.

I honestly wonder if the leagues need to stretch their imaginations and come up with alternative championships to create some fan excitement. Create some kind of meaningful sub-leagues or some such that expands the number of winners a bit. Kind of like how the 60+ teams of the CHL are divided up into 3 leagues, so your local team might at least celebrate winning the QMJHL even if it never actually wins the Memorial Cup.

If you end up with 60 teams chasing the Stanley Cup then as you point out, there might be teams that go decades without even making the playoffs. Tough to send out those $10,000 season ticket invoices when you're heading into year 15 of the playoff drought.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I honestly wonder if the leagues need to stretch their imaginations and come up with alternative championships to create some fan excitement. Create some kind of meaningful sub-leagues or some such that expands the number of winners a bit. Kind of like how the 60+ teams of the CHL are divided up into 3 leagues, so your local team might at least celebrate winning the QMJHL even if it never actually wins the Memorial Cup.

If you end up with 60 teams chasing the Stanley Cup then as you point out, there might be teams that go decades without even making the playoffs. Tough to send out those $10,000 season ticket invoices when you're heading into year 15 of the playoff drought.

Or you do like some leagues and sports around the world and create multiple different championships that teams can compete for!

[savevp]

The CHL is a great example where the Mem Cup is effectively a Champions League.

It's more difficult in the NHL where you're arguably starting to degrade the talent pool with many more clubs. And you don't have the global pipeline of soccer where you can have a compelling champions league format; the NHL will probably win every time.

I could see a European division in the near-ish future though. At least there you have hockey cities with lots of actual hockey fans. Whether they'd be NHL fans is a question, but I suspect they would.