Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[WhipperSnapper]

How do you feel about Trudeau's desires for corporate (English) Canada to be as bilingual as the federal government? There's a minute chance given his dictatorial tendencies in implementing his desires and that he has enough seats locked up to be a perpetual minority PM. Short term it may give French Canadians disproportional representation as with senior level positions in the governments of Canada. Longer term, it will force English Canada (if it were to survive) to become bilingual.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

How do you feel about Trudeau's desires for corporate (English) Canada to be as bilingual as the federal government? There's a minute chance given his dictatorial tendencies and that he has enough seats locked up to be a perpetual minority PM. Short term it may give French Canadians disproportional representation as with senior level positions in the governments of Canada. Longer term, it will force English Canada (if it were to survive) to become bilingual.

This is not really what is being proposed at all. What you've just mentioned would be ridiculous and practical to apply.

What is being proposed in Bill C-13 is that federally-regulated corporations in Quebec be subject to French language of work stipulations just like non-federally regulated businesses in Quebec.

Right now, Air Canada, CN, the chartered banks and a bunch of other corporations in Quebec are exempted from Bill 101 and can have their employees working entirely in English all day. They aren't obliged to offer employees training in French or work tools or a working environment in French like other corps in Quebec are.

It's a loophole that certain parties in Quebec have been wanting to see closed for a while.

So there is no plan to make all of corporate "English" Canada as bilingual as the federal government. And certainly no applicability of these new rules (if they get adopted) outside Quebec.

[MonctonRad]

If passed, will Air Canada, CNR etc be allowed to decamp their head offices from Quebec to prevent a mass loss of qualified employees???

Or, would they keep their head office in Quebec but establish a "general office" in Toronto where 95% of their head office employees would work

After all, The Bank of Nova Scotia is (still) headquartered in Halifax, but virtually all senior administrative work is based out of Toronto. I think the only stipulation is that the annual general meeting every year has to be held in Halifax.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by lio45

When Justin Trudeau makes a speech in Tokyo, we're just glad when he doesn't say he's "thankful to be here in China". You'd want him to learn a speech in Japanese by heart?!?!? (this is actually hilarious, I'm seriously chuckling at the ridiculousness of the suggestion)

(also chuckling while reading this)

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is not really what is being proposed at all. What you've just mentioned would be ridiculous and practical to apply.

What is being proposed in Bill C-13 is that federally-regulated corporations in Quebec be subject to French language of work stipulations just like non-federally regulated businesses in Quebec.

Right now, Air Canada, CN, the chartered banks and a bunch of other corporations in Quebec are exempted from Bill 101 and can have their employees working entirely in English all day. They aren't obliged to offer employees training in French or work tools or a working environment in French like other corps in Quebec are.

It's a loophole that certain parties in Quebec have been wanting to see closed for a while.

So there is no plan to make all of corporate "English" Canada as bilingual as the federal government. And certainly no applicability of these new rules (if they get adopted) outside Quebec.

Not sure that "loophole" is the correct way to describe it.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If passed, will Air Canada, CNR etc be allowed to decamp their head offices from Quebec to prevent a mass loss of qualified employees???

Or, would they keep their head office in Quebec but establish a "general office" in Toronto where 95% of their head office employees would work

After all, The Bank of Nova Scotia is (still) headquartered in Halifax, but virtually all senior administrative work is based out of Toronto. I think the only stipulation is that the annual general meeting every year has to be held in Halifax.

I think that Air Canada is legally obliged to remain in Montreal, no? Not sure whether a token head office would do it.

[esquire]

I find this Biden should have spoken Polish thing fascinating.

Poland is not insecure when it comes to the mother tongue, so by and large the population is not going to be butthurt over the fact that Biden delivered his remarks in English. No one who doesn't already have a chip on their shoulder vis a vis Biden is going to take it as some sort of affront to Poland. Besides, I have a feeling this type of thing may be more common in Europe where various delegations will speak in their mother tongue, it's not the English vs. everything else dynamic you get in North America.

And believe it or not, this situation has played out in reverse... back in the 90s, Vaclav Havel spoke at the University of Manitoba. I didn't see the big box of translation devices at the entrance so I never grabbed one. When he started speaking in Czech everyone except me, it seemed, whipped out their earpieces. So I sat there listening to him but not understanding a word he said. What a jerk! In Winnipeg and speaking Czech. I should have thrown a tomato at him.

[Acajack]

Air Canada and CN are AFAIK legally required to have their head offices in Montreal. These were conditions built into the legislation that privatized them.

Both have some head office functions in Montreal for sure, though I am not certain that they are 100% operated from that city.

It's said in more cynical circles that Air Canada is actually run from Toronto, and that CN is run from Chicago, of all places.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's said in more cynical circles that Air Canada is actually run from Toronto, and that CN is run from Chicago, of all places.

I don't think it's cynical so much as it is reality... the railway carries the CN name but it is generally accepted by people in the industry that it's really Illinois Central and operated from Chicago.

In much the same way that BMO is officially headquartered in Montreal but operated out of Toronto.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Air Canada and CN are AFAIK legally required to have their head offices in Montreal. These were conditions built into the legislation that privatized them.

Both have some head office functions in Montreal for sure, though I am not certain that they are 100% operated from that city.

It's said in more cynical circles that Air Canada is actually run from Toronto, and that CN is run from Chicago, of all places.

For AC, anecdotally, there is an mtlurb forumer who works at the head office and claims that the employees are very much bilingual, so the risk of it becoming a shadow head office seems low. It's worth pointing out that the much maligned CEO of Air Canada (still) lives in Montreal, contrary to the majority of the executive board members of Bell Canada, for instance.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by esquire

I find this Biden should have spoken Polish thing fascinating.

Poland is not insecure when it comes to the mother tongue, so by and large the population is not going to be butthurt over the fact that Biden delivered his remarks in English. No one who doesn't already have a chip on their shoulder vis a vis Biden is going to take it as some sort of affront to Poland. Besides, I have a feeling this type of thing may be more common in Europe where various delegations will speak in their mother tongue, it's not the English vs. everything else dynamic you get in North America.

And believe it or not, this situation has played out in reverse... back in the 90s, Vaclav Havel spoke at the University of Manitoba. I didn't see the big box of translation devices at the entrance so I never grabbed one. When he started speaking in Czech everyone except me, it seemed, whipped out their earpieces. So I sat there listening to him but not understanding a word he said. What a jerk! In Winnipeg and speaking Czech. I should have thrown a tomato at him.

I feel like you missed the point entirely. In your example, translation devices where provided... because it was assumed correctly that the audience would not understand Czech.

I do not understand as well that Biden should have given his speech in Polish. English is fine. He struggles sometimes in English so I can just imagine in another language... I hope however there was some form of translation offered. Would just be normal practice.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Zeej

For AC, anecdotally, there is an mtlurb forumer who works at the head office and claims that the employees are very much bilingual, so the risk of it becoming a shadow head office seems low. It's worth pointing out that the much maligned CEO of Air Canada (still) lives in Montreal, contrary to the majority of the executive board members of Bell Canada, for instance.

All the ROCers in this thread salivating at the loss of a few headquarters/corporations in Montreal will be very disappointed. Bilingual is the norm, not the exception.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by vanatox

I feel like you missed the point entirely. In your example, translation devices where provided... because it was assumed correctly that the audience would not understand Czech.

I do not understand as well that Biden should have given his speech in Polish. English is fine. He struggles sometimes in English so I can just imagine in another language... I hope however there was some form of translation offered. Would just be normal practice.

Do not mistake disagreement for missing the point

Do we know that there wasn't some form of live translation provided? Considering the efforts in getting him to the region I would imagine adding a couple of screens and a translator would have been peanuts.

Anyway, in the example I gave, the speech was entirely for the people in the room on that day. Biden's speech was meant for worldwide consumption. Whether the people on hand understood it or not was immaterial in the grand scheme of things.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by esquire

Do not mistake disagreement for missing the point

Do we know that there wasn't some form of live translation provided? Considering the efforts in getting him to the region I would imagine adding a couple of screens and a translator would have been peanuts.

Anyway, in the example I gave, the speech was entirely for the people in the room on that day. Biden's speech was meant for worldwide consumption. Whether the people on hand understood it or not was immaterial in the grand scheme of things.

I do not disagree. I just found your example was not relevant.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

When Justin Trudeau makes a speech in Tokyo, we're just glad when he doesn't say he's "thankful to be here in China". You'd want him to learn a speech in Japanese by heart?!?!? (this is actually hilarious, I'm seriously chuckling at the ridiculousness of the suggestion)

Justin Trudeau doesn't make speeches on public squares in Tokyo. That's precisely the point. But in the US, apparently, there's a rule book somewhere that says every president must make his one speech-in-central-Europe-to-enter-history-books. It's ridiculous.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Anglo-Montrealers being Anglo-Montrealers.

yeah, just like the seven-up guy.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Justin Trudeau doesn't make speeches on public squares in Tokyo. That's precisely the point. But in the US, apparently, there's a rule book somewhere that says every president must make his one speech-in-central-Europe-to-enter-history-books. It's ridiculous.

why are you so bent on choosing this hill to die on? You are being ridiculous. I am quite sure we can go back and find plenty of examples of French Presidents giving speeches in French in former French colonies.

As for De Gaulle, he had the Gall to come to Canada and exclaim "Vive le Quebec Libre", after tens of thousands of Canadians perished liberating his own fucking country from the Nazis

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by esquire

Poland is not insecure when it comes to the mother tongue, so by and large the population is not going to be butthurt over the fact that Biden delivered his remarks in English. No one who doesn't already have a chip on their shoulder vis a vis Biden is going to take it as some sort of affront to Poland.

Depends vis-à-vis whom. If a leader of Russia (even an impeccably democratic one) came to Warsaw and made a speech on the same public square in Russian only (complete with Russian pop music and lights), the Polish public would be as pissed off as the Québec public if the prime minister of Canada came to Montréal and made a speech on the Place d'Armes in English only.

Poles too have lots of chips on their shoulders (vis-à-vis the Russians, but also the Czechs, the Germans, and even the Ukrainians, who "stole" their 2nd largest city, Lwow, in 1945, even though of course today they have toned down their resentment at Ukrainian nationalists in the name of fighting against a greater evil).

Speaking of which, Angela Merkel coming to Warsaw and making a speech in German only (which probably 50% of the population could understand) would have triggered super outrage in Poland. See the cover of the Polish magazine Wprost depicting Angela Merkel as Hitler for example, which generated great outrage in Germany at the time.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Depends vis-à-vis whom. If a leader of Russia (even an impeccably democratic one) came to Warsaw and made a speech on the same public square in Russian only (complete with Russian pop music and lights), the Polish public would be as pissed off as the Québec public if the prime minister of Canada came to Montréal and made a speech on the Place d'Armes in English only.

Poles too have lots of chips on their shoulders (vis-à-vis the Russians, but also the Czechs, the Germans, and even the Ukrainians, who "stole" their 2nd largest city, Lwow, in 1945, even though of course today they have toned down their resentment at Ukrainian nationalists in the name of fighting against a greater evil).

The "chips" here are related to foreign relations and perceptions of those other countries, not the language itself. Russian nationalists would not be well received no matter which language they deliver their remarks in. Similarly, I don't think Xi Jinping, for instance, would receive a warm reception in Canada even if his remarks were delivered in flawless English.

That is not the same as the dynamic in your example of a Canadian PM delivering English remarks in Quebec.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Apparently, 50% of Poles can speak English. Though these numbers are often inflated and over-estimate just how good people are in their second language.

I'd actually believe it. Having spent some time in Poland, I'd say the average person there is more likely to speak English than in Germany or France. They're also notably better than their neighbours in Slovakia and Czechia whose ability to speak English is much worse.

People in Central Europe think of English as the "world language". There is their national language for communicating with each other, and English for communicating with everyone else.