Metro Vancouver Parks & Green Space

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Bear in mind that the core thesis of the About Here video isn't that we should just have more coffee shops on the Seawall, it's that we should aim to design it as a destination rather than a liminal space.

It is though. People go there to get some exercise and enjoy the view. They don't use it to get from A to B. It's not very efficient. If they do use it as part of their walk home for example, it's to enjoy it for what it is.

Originally Posted by chowhou

If you want a space to be vibrant, you need a reason for people to stick around like live shows, destinations, or any sort of gravity like the video mentions.

The seawall does have that, at certain spots. Olympic Village and Coal Harbour are two of them.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

At the very least, it probably wouldn't hurt to overhaul Leg-in-Boot (and possibly the rest of South False Creek).

Should do better once they trigger the South False Creek redevelopment Plan... in 2050 or whatever.

You essentially need Market Hill Road to properly connect to 6th Ave, and we all know how lovely 6th Ave is. You'd need to develop the lots on the eastern side of Cambie Bridge and re-jig the pathway between Leg-in-Boot and Southeast Flase Creek and get rid of all the zig-zaging and dead ends.

Or (to keep this on parks) you'd have to revamp CityStudio, Spyglass, and install 3-4 CRUs next to CityStudio under Cambie Bridge and maybe that foot traffic would help the Sqaure. Fixing suburbia isn't easy

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It is though. People go there to get some exercise and enjoy the view. They don't use it to get from A to B. It's not very efficient. If they do use it as part of their walk home for example, it's to enjoy it for what it is.

The seawall does have that, at certain spots. Olympic Village and Coal Harbour are two of them.

I mentioned OV earlier as a good example of a place people go, and we see the success of businesses in that area, but for these SFC properties or 90% of the rest of the Seawall it's not a destination, it's liminal space to get to the next part of the Seawall. No one is "going" to Existential Alley, or under the Cambie Bridge, or these SFC properties, they're typically passing through. Now there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that, but I would not call that a destination.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Should do better once they trigger the South False Creek redevelopment Plan... in 2050 or whatever.

You essentially need Market Hill Road to properly connect to 6th Ave, and we all know how lovely 6th Ave is. You'd need to develop the lots on the eastern side of Cambie Bridge and re-jig the pathway between Leg-in-Boot and Southeast Flase Creek and get rid of all the zig-zaging and dead ends.

Or (to keep this on parks) you'd have to revamp CityStudio, Spyglass, and install 3-4 CRUs next to CityStudio under Cambie Bridge and maybe that foot traffic would help the Sqaure. Fixing suburbia isn't easy

Would it make much difference? The retail at 1000 Beach isn't exactly thriving and it is pretty accessible and surrounded by larger buildings. How many times has that restaurant pavilion gone bust? The current pub style place at the point seems to be doing ok but its gone through many incarnations.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It is though. People go there to get some exercise and enjoy the view. They don't use it to get from A to B. It's not very efficient. If they do use it as part of their walk home for example, it's to enjoy it for what it is.

This. I know many people who pick a central place like Granville Island to meet and then walk the seawall. "Walking the seawall" is the destination activity.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The seawall does have that, at certain spots. Olympic Village and Coal Harbour are two of them.

The question is how many more of those spots do you need?

[GenWhy?]

Would be a good opportunity to get involved in the upcoming next engagement phase of the West End Waterfront Plan this coming quarter, and grand opportunities for activation by the aquatic ferry stop with its redevelopment. Most new rec centres in Canada have a very successful cafe attached with outdoor area, viewing area - something akin to the layout of the Boathouse in Kits

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

This. I know many people who pick a central place like Granville Island to meet and then walk the seawall. "Walking the seawall" is the destination activity.

The question is how many more of those spots do you need?

Yeah we're going to get them whether we want to or not. I expect something at Plaza of Nations, NEFC, SFC (when they redevelop the coop area), and Senakw.

That's probably fine though, within reason.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Bear in mind that the core thesis of the About Here video isn't that we should just have more coffee shops on the Seawall, it's that we should aim to design it as a destination rather than a liminal space.

Just throwing a cafe in a Skytrain station isn't guaranteed to work if 99.9% of people have no intention of slowing down their commute just like throwing a cafe on the Seawall isn't guaranteed to work if 99.9% of people have no intention of slowing down their run/bike ride.

If you want a space to be vibrant, you need a reason for people to stick around like live shows, destinations, or any sort of gravity like the video mentions.

I wasn't impressed with the arguments in the video - most of the examples of more vibrant seawalls are much shorter. Obviously parts of Vancouver's much longer seawall will be liminal - and those are where the 'boring' shots were filmed. And being much longer, with far more parks, activities will be more spread out.

There are a series of places along the seawall that have destination spots with more activity. Granville Island, Coal Harbour, Olympic Village, the Convention Centre, the local centre at the foot of Davie are all busy (especially in summer, when the Halifax waterfront images were taken - and that's much less vibrant for much of the year). It's often busy under Cambie Bridge on the north side with a variety of active uses. There are festivals that use various parks at different times of the year (although the Jazz Fest won't be in David Lam this year, having lost their sponsorship).

The even more active waterfront has been planned for the Plaza of Nations replacement. I'm hoping it'll work a bit like the Shipyards in North Vancouver, which is also part of the available seawall for Vancouver residents. And GenWhy makes a point I completely agree with - the new Aquatic Centre should have a cafe/viewing deck incorporated into the design.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Yeah we're going to get them whether we want to or not. I expect something at Plaza of Nations, NEFC, SFC (when they redevelop the coop area), and Senakw.

That's probably fine though, within reason.

Of those, I'm not sure SFC really needs one as it is served by Granville island and OV at ether end. What people seem to ignore is that for many months when it s wet and/or cold the foot traffic really drops along the seawall.

[GenWhy?]

OV is funny to because where one is in relation to the seawall and restaurants, you're in the plaza and to access or see the seawall you have to leave the establishments, which the exception of Tap, and they close the 2nd level most days unless it's July or August.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I wasn't impressed with the arguments in the video - most of the examples of more vibrant seawalls are much shorter. Obviously parts of Vancouver's much longer seawall will be liminal - and those are where the 'boring' shots were filmed.

Some of the shots were near Sunset beach, which could probably be far more vibrant given its proximity to Davie Village, the Burrard Bridge, the Aquatic Centre, and the water taxi docks. Other than the music festival this past summer, the lawn at Sunset is pretty underused. I think some grass volleyball nets that could be removed for events, plus some outdoor basketball courts in the parking lot, and some proper benches and picnic tables would be very popular there.

Also, David Lam and George Wainborn parks are very popular in the summer for picnics and bbqs. How about the city adds some facilities to those parks like washrooms and picnic tables to facilitate those activities? And maybe license some food and beverage vendors for those areas?

I don't think the video was arguing that the seawall needs to be packed with restaurants and buskers and shops along its entire length. It's only natural that there will be nodes of activity linked together by liminal spaces without a lot going on. But there are several locations where there are currently activities to do, and they could be added to, or where there is nothing to do but there should be.

Even for the stretch along the Coal Harbour marina, there is a bike shop and one ice cream place with a few tables outside. Considering that Tapshack around the corner and Cardero's always seem busy in the summer, I have to imagine a full service restaurant with a seawall patio could do well there.

[GenWhy?]

The Sunset patch of grass needs a solution for the water pooling yesterday

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Some of the shots were near Sunset beach, which could probably be far more vibrant given its proximity to Davie Village, the Burrard Bridge, the Aquatic Centre, and the water taxi docks. Other than the music festival this past summer, the lawn at Sunset is pretty underused. I think some grass volleyball nets that could be removed for events, plus some outdoor basketball courts in the parking lot, and some proper benches and picnic tables would be very popular there.

Also, David Lam and George Wainborn parks are very popular in the summer for picnics and bbqs. How about the city adds some facilities to those parks like washrooms and picnic tables to facilitate those activities? And maybe license some food and beverage vendors for those areas?

I don't think the video was arguing that the seawall needs to be packed with restaurants and buskers and shops along its entire length. It's only natural that there will be nodes of activity linked together by liminal spaces without a lot going on. But there are several locations where there are currently activities to do, and they could be added to, or where there is nothing to do but there should be.

Even for the stretch along the Coal Harbour marina, there is a bike shop and one ice cream place with a few tables outside. Considering that Tapshack around the corner and Cardero's always seem busy in the summer, I have to imagine a full service restaurant with a seawall patio could do well there.

David Lam Park has washrooms, surprising given the city's historic phobia over providing public conveniences.

They keywords in your observation about Tapshack is "summer", As I noted earlier, foot traffic drops of precipitously in the winter. Constant rain will do that. Short of a Robson Square-style covered skating rink it is difficult to reverse that.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Some of the shots were near Sunset beach, which could probably be far more vibrant given its proximity to Davie Village, the Burrard Bridge, the Aquatic Centre, and the water taxi docks. Other than the music festival this past summer, the lawn at Sunset is pretty underused. I think some grass volleyball nets that could be removed for events, plus some outdoor basketball courts in the parking lot, and some proper benches and picnic tables would be very popular there.

Also, David Lam and George Wainborn parks are very popular in the summer for picnics and bbqs. How about the city adds some facilities to those parks like washrooms and picnic tables to facilitate those activities? And maybe license some food and beverage vendors for those areas?

I don't think the video was arguing that the seawall needs to be packed with restaurants and buskers and shops along its entire length. It's only natural that there will be nodes of activity linked together by liminal spaces without a lot going on. But there are several locations where there are currently activities to do, and they could be added to, or where there is nothing to do but there should be.

Even for the stretch along the Coal Harbour marina, there is a bike shop and one ice cream place with a few tables outside. Considering that Tapshack around the corner and Cardero's always seem busy in the summer, I have to imagine a full service restaurant with a seawall patio could do well there.

There's already a washroom in David Lam park, and in the Community Centre.

As well as Cardero's there Cafe Villaggio, another restaurant in the Westin hotel, and Lift on the seawall next to it. Other cafes in Coal Harbour have failed, and as noted, the Park Board have land that they've tried to build a restaurant by the convention centre for 12 years, with no success so far. There are only so many people looking to eat out, and we seem to have as many places as the market supports in that location for now.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

OV is funny to because where one is in relation to the seawall and restaurants, you're in the plaza and to access or see the seawall you have to leave the establishments, which the exception of Tap, and they close the 2nd level most days unless it's July or August.

I think it shows the exact issue here... seawall specific businesses have been tried and they don't work. I'd argue the OV square and related pubs and shops are supported by the people that live there, not people on the seawall from elsewhere.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Also, David Lam and George Wainborn parks are very popular in the summer for picnics and bbqs. How about the city adds some facilities to those parks like washrooms and picnic tables to facilitate those activities? And maybe license some food and beverage vendors for those areas?

David Lam has washrooms. I see food trucks on Pacific regularly in the summer.

I assume Food trucks are picking the places they want to go, not the other way around (although I'm sure there's red tape involved in the request).

Even for the stretch along the Coal Harbour marina, there is a bike shop and one ice cream place with a few tables outside. Considering that Tapshack around the corner and Cardero's always seem busy in the summer, I have to imagine a full service restaurant with a seawall patio could do well there.

They are a few steps away at the Convention Centre.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Changing City

That's Leg-in-Boot Square that I mentioned above. The travel office is there, and there are two fitness studios. There's also one, small, local bakery. The other retail failed. The townhouses on the left of the image used to be a restaurant, but it also failed.

My guess is the [past] lack of foot traffic along the seawall, no visibility from any street, and the general lower end of [higher] density in the area.
The restaurants would need to be a destination, as the local residents can't support them on their own.
Now that the OV Canada Line Station is there, they could leverage that to reinvigorate the Stamp's Landing and Leg-in-Boot areas for nighttime restaurant visits (but residents may not like the nightime activity). Ideally, there would be a pedestrian connection lined with retail leading to the seawall from the station.

That would be comparable to Yaletown, which is largely a nightime restaurant and bar destination (which is also due to the big loading dock patios), after retail businesses tried to open there and failed (there are a few clothing shops though, but remember the 90s when there was a Le Chateau and Mark James and lots of furniture stores?).

WRT Coal Harbour, it has the classic view of he mountains, but is in the shadow of downtown and can be chilly (and height limits won't change that).

As Changing City mentioned, there may not be enough people eating out to support so many restaurants, and Vancouverites do eat out a lot!
That restaurant pavillion at 1000 Beach was very popular in the 1990s as the Chili Club, but that was before Marinaside had developed.
The isolated restaurant space at the north foot of Denman has had high turnover (is it currently tenanted?).

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Changing City

There's already a washroom in David Lam park, and in the Community Centre.

As well as Cardero's there Cafe Villaggio, another restaurant in the Westin hotel, and Lift on the seawall next to it. Other cafes in Coal Harbour have failed, and as noted, the Park Board have land that they've tried to build a restaurant by the convention centre for 12 years, with no success so far. There are only so many people looking to eat out, and we seem to have as many places as the market supports in that location for now.

Eh, maybe? I mean, at this point, the City's parks have the largest repository of parking or undeveloped land in downtown Vancouver.

One would think that maybe the City is too restrictive in allowing development, or making use of underutilized lands.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think it shows the exact issue here... seawall specific businesses have been tried and they don't work. I'd argue the OV square and related pubs and shops are supported by the people that live there, not people on the seawall from elsewhere.

I think it's more the commercial isolation and urban design that made the businesses in those locations do poorly rather than a CRU being along the water and in an actual shopping area, like Marinaside Crescent, or the Craft at English Bay. These are the only 2 locations I can think of that are on the seawall and have more than 1 or 2 CRUs.

The Japanese restaurant under Burrard you'd never know was there and that whole segment of the seawall is awkward as balls. The Beach Ave bike lane bypass was good for transportation but ya bad for business there as thousands less pass by now.

[GenWhy?]

Major component of the conversation missing is that there is no offices or jobs near seawall commercial areas. Daytime traffic and post-work traffic are big boosts.