Barrhaven LRT | Proposed

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Translation?

Vimy Bridge instead of Vimy Ridge. Never sounded right to me.

[Arcologist]

Unless we see massive population growth in Barrhaven via intensification (not sprawl), then I find it incredibly difficult to spend $3.5B to extend LRT there, especially with less people commuting downtown now that WFH is here to stay (to some extent or another.) And even if everyone in Barrhaven decided to return to work in person, is it worth spending that kind of money? Why not just expand BRT here?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Vimy Bridge instead of Vimy Ridge. Never sounded right to me.

This is the first time I've ever noticed. Also, it only works that way in English.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think the estimate was $600 million. No doubt that could balloon to $1B if built today.

Which seems highly reasonable to connect that part of the city seamlessly. The point of connecting all our major suburbs is so that we can avoid more urban sprawl, and start creating a map that creates densification across these areas. We'll see much more densification in Barrhaven as a result of the LRT and having 3 major stops there. It's already started because they're expecting it, imagine once it is finally coming to fruition.

Key examples are all western and Eastern parts of the city already around Baseline, Bayshore all the way to Tunney's. I don't see why many think Barrhaven should be excluded, it also connects the LRT to Via Rail's HFR once they get their act together - that's important. And also why Fallowfield will become a much more major station down the road.

[J.OT13]

General consensus seems to be that extending to Fallowfield is warranted, but maybe not beyond. I'm on the fence seeing that they are densifying around current BRT/future O-Train stations already, but it's still very much designed for commuters headed downtown, which will no longer be as dominant of a ridership pool as it once was.

[rocketphish]

No need to demolish homes for new LRT route to Barrhaven
Tenants along Woodroffe Avenue had fought original route

Kate Porter · CBC News
Posted: Jun 08, 2022 12:35 PM ET | Last Updated: 4 minutes ago



Ottawa city council has changed the path of the future light rail line to Barrhaven to avoid tearing down rental homes, but the new plan could also cost up to $50 million more than the initial plan projected.

After council approved the original route in November 2020, staff went back and looked at a different plan to put the elevated tracks in the median of Woodroffe Avenue, in an area they call a 600-metre "pinch point" between Knoxdale and West Hunt Club roads.

That option hadn't been recommended at the time, staff said, in part because of utilities such as a trunk watermain underground there.

But tenants currently living in homes in Manor Village and Cheryl Gardens have fought against the idea of having to move so their homes could be demolished.

Stage 3 of light rail to Kanata and Stittsville and to Barrhaven still has no funding secured from upper levels of government.

Staff say there is a need for those low-rent units given a shortage of housing. They also point out real estate prices have risen quickly, and so too have the costs of the city obtaining those privately owned lands for the train system.

They now propose sending the raised tracks down the median, adding anywhere from $35 million to $50 million to the project's price.

In total, the City of Ottawa estimates it will now cost $3.52 billion in today's dollars for the Barrhaven leg of LRT, from Baseline Station to Barrhaven Town Centre, which is south of Strandherd Drive.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-barrhaven-alignment-manor-village-change-1.6481318

[DTcrawler]

$3.52 billion... crazy to imagine we want to spend that much to extend the line into one suburb when we are spending $4.66 billion for the entirety of Stage 2. Yes, I know inflation and rising construction costs are a factor but I just can't help but imagine what kind of improvements we could make to urban transit for that amount of money.

[waterloowarrior]

From the EA, which is in 2020 dollars (Chapter 9) https://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-en...nning-and-environmental-assessment-study

Table 9-1 Barrhaven LRT and Rail Grade-Separations Estimated Capital Cost
Staging Priority Capital Cost
Baseline Station – Fallowfield Station (including VIA Rail Grade-separations): $2 B
Fallowfield Station – Barrhaven Centre Station: $1 B
Total Project Cost: $3 B

"As part of the project phasing and implementation, it is possible that the rail grade-separations may proceed in advance of the LRT Extension. The cost estimate to advance this project component in isolation (with the Southwest Transitway Rail Grade-separation constructed as a BRT facility) is estimated to be $400 M in 2020 dollars (Class C estimate)."



I really hope this project is revisited in the new TMP, especially if improvements are being made to the existing rail line through the HFR program.

[Kitchissippi]

Kind of crazy. Those crappy townhouses are nearing the end of their life and are nowhere worth $50 million. The real creative solution would have been to negotiate a redevelopment plan with the owner to build over the tracks and possibly integrating a station into a high density complex, not just here but the whole stretch from Tallwood to Hunt Club. Could have put more than double the affordable housing, and phased it so they start by building on the empty north end at Knoxdale station and move the residents there before demolishing the townhomes.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Kind of crazy. Those crappy townhouses are nearing the end of their life and are nowhere worth $50 million. The real creative solution would have been to negotiate a redevelopment plan with the owner to build over the tracks and possibly integrating a station into a high density complex, not just here but the whole stretch from Tallwood to Hunt Club. Could have put more than double the affordable housing, and phased it so they start by building on the empty north end at Knoxdale station and move the residents there before demolishing the townhomes.

That could have been an interesting idea. Too bad out politicians, or City Staff, are incapable of finding innovative solutions such as this. The deal could have involved guaranteeing x amount of years to current tenants. Instead, we have a $50 million maintenance nightmare to speed up renovictions.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That could have been an interesting idea. Too bad out politicians, or City Staff, are incapable of finding innovative solutions such as this. The deal could have involved guaranteeing x amount of years to current tenants. Instead, we have a $50 million maintenance nightmare to speed up renovictions.

Agreed. That idea just makes too much sense. The biggest problem is that the owner wouldn't be happy maintaining it as affordable housing.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

$3.52 billion... crazy to imagine we want to spend that much to extend the line into one suburb when we are spending $4.66 billion for the entirety of Stage 2. Yes, I know inflation and rising construction costs are a factor but I just can't help but imagine what kind of improvements we could make to urban transit for that amount of money.

As indicated earlier, it's really a combination of things that brings it up. If you count only straight Barrhaven LRT, it's probably closer to 1 Billion. There's integration with the HFR tracks with Via Rail and other things which they are bundling up with this Stage 3 plan for the Barrhaven side.

It's not just one suburb, it also creates a crucial easy connection to Via Rail - which in the end will make it more convenient to take Via Rail for many people once HFR is up. It also connects the Western portion of city to the airport better. If someone wanted to go from Baseline and not pay an arm and a leg for Uber/Lyft/Taxi, they would be able to take LRT (even if it requires transfers - it's still there).

[phil235]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

It's not just one suburb, it also creates a crucial easy connection to Via Rail - which in the end will make it more convenient to take Via Rail for many people once HFR is up. It also connects the Western portion of city to the airport better. If someone wanted to go from Baseline and not pay an arm and a leg for Uber/Lyft/Taxi, they would be able to take LRT (even if it requires transfers - it's still there).

I understand the connectivity it will theoretically provide (HFR is still a long way from being a sure thing), but it seems like more of the same to me - build rail where people might take it in a few decades. You could serve so many more people by investing $3 billion in the existing urban areas which are intensifying now, but are scheduled to remain transit poor for decades to come.

[H>T&T>P]

A couple points from my POV.

The rail grade separations are happening no matter what. Do we really want to build a BRT bridge over Via and then have to convert later?

They need to reach Fallowfield at a minimum to make the Algonquin College to Nepean Sportsplex part worthwhile.

If they do go to Fallowfield they will probably need or want the new Maintenance Facility which would basically take them to Longfields Station.

There is a huge opportunity in my opinion at Barrhaven Centre as no where else is in the Suburbs will the LRT enter the centre of a planned downtown that is already intensifying in anticipation without being hampered by a 6 lane 400 series highway.

My 2 cents for what its worth.

Full disclosure I live about a 15 minute walk from Barrhaven Centre.

[OTSkyline]

I really hope that the "proposed stations" for stage 3 in Kanata and Barrhaven are preliminary and not finalized. Seems to me like way too many stations and short spacing between them. 8 stations to service Kanata? 5 stations servicing Barrhaven?

There's something to be said about providing rail service to the suburbs but that doesn't mean everyone should expect LRT station at their front door.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

I really hope that the "proposed stations" for stage 3 in Kanata and Barrhaven are preliminary and not finalized. Seems to me like way too many stations and short spacing between them. 8 stations to service Kanata? 5 stations servicing Barrhaven?

There's something to be said about providing rail service to the suburbs but that doesn't mean everyone should expect LRT station at their front door.

I've got no issue with providing a higher density of stations in the burbs right from the get-go, especially if they are well-located. (Like, AT the streets they are named after, not somewhere in the general area.)

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

As indicated earlier, it's really a combination of things that brings it up. If you count only straight Barrhaven LRT, it's probably closer to 1 Billion. There's integration with the HFR tracks with Via Rail and other things which they are bundling up with this Stage 3 plan for the Barrhaven side.

It's not just one suburb, it also creates a crucial easy connection to Via Rail - which in the end will make it more convenient to take Via Rail for many people once HFR is up. It also connects the Western portion of city to the airport better. If someone wanted to go from Baseline and not pay an arm and a leg for Uber/Lyft/Taxi, they would be able to take LRT (even if it requires transfers - it's still there).

I can understand the connectivity argument when it comes to HFR, but that would be quite the detour to the airport, up to near downtown, transfer to a 12 minute train to South Keys and again the the airport. A roughly 16 kilometer - 20 minute drive or taxi ride changes to a roughly 32 kilometer - - hour+ long 3 train ride.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I've got no issue with providing a higher density of stations in the burbs right from the get-go, especially if they are well-located. (Like, AT the streets they are named after, not somewhere in the general area.)

Fine for a tram line, but when we're building a metro with $30+ million stations, I take issue with denser station spacing in the suburbs compared to the urban core.

[lrt's friend]

We should definitely make LRT as inconvenient as possible with few walk-on possibilities and maximize the last mile problem with the worst possible bus connections.

If we are not prepared to provide convenient bus connections from LRT, then we better build more stations so that more people can walk to a station.

It seems we want to have distant rail stations plus have awful bus connections, the worst of both worlds. When our ridership remains flat or declines further, the answer should be obvious.

Decisions on LRT design cannot ignore design plans for bus routes and service levels. The worst thing we can do is spend of fortune on rail then value engineer and drop stations to save money and then also cheap out on connecting bus service.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Fine for a tram line, but when we're building a metro with $30+ million stations, I take issue with denser station spacing in the suburbs compared to the urban core.

Totally, but that's still not a sound reason to not go with moar stations in the suburbs from the beginning, rather than leaving blanks on the map. It's also highly desirable if we are serious about changing our existing suburbs and building better ones.

[J.OT13]

Public consultation slides from this moth:

https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/blrt_present_jan_2023_en.pdf

Complete with the re-alignment to save homes being reconvicted anyway.