Barrhaven LRT | Proposed

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Why!? Why approve this expensive, maintenance intensive detour to save a few townhomes that are predictably now going through renovictions!?

Expropriate now, and give the remaining residents an additional 5-10 years. I'm sure there's a way around priority lists if we replace the housing elsewhere.

Part of the reason is that they can't expropriate now, at least not without council direction. Unless something changes, they can only move forward with expropriation if the project is funded.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Part of the reason is that they can't expropriate now, at least not without council direction. Unless something changes, they can only move forward with expropriation if the project is funded.

Then get council direction.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Part of the reason is that they can't expropriate now, at least not without council direction. Unless something changes, they can only move forward with expropriation if the project is funded.

See that is what is annoying, the residents would have gotten a better situation if they just let the city offer them a deal to relocate them but the developer hid that their intention of not keeping them, which ultimately made it worse for them.

Sometimes it's better to take the initial deal when they saw what happened elsewhere in the city. It sucks but atleast they would be saving the city tax dollars - now all we have is a greedy developer feeding off a free situation.

Yikes of a situation, it really is hard for them to go back on what they did but if they could find a way to go back to the original plan and just relocate them now and give a big screw off to them - that'd be nice.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

See that is what is annoying, the residents would have gotten a better situation if they just let the city offer them a deal to relocate them but the developer hid that their intention of not keeping them, which ultimately made it worse for them.

Sometimes it's better to take the initial deal when they saw what happened elsewhere in the city. It sucks but atleast they would be saving the city tax dollars - now all we have is a greedy developer feeding off a free situation.

Yikes of a situation, it really is hard for them to go back on what they did but if they could find a way to go back to the original plan and just relocate them now and give a big screw off to them - that'd be nice.

The developer did not hide there intention it was semi-known that the developer was in discussion with the city to redevelop and or modify there property when the original route was chosen.

Quote" Stephen Willis, the city’s general manager of planning and development, said staff have had recent discussions with the landowner that suggest Smart Living will seek to redevelop and intensify the site in the coming years."

From 2020: https://globalnews.ca/news/7484258/ottawa-council-barrhaven-lrt-manor-village/

Council should have moved forward with the expropriation at the time they chose the route and offered all the residents help in moving to either affordable or subsidized units like those own by OCH. Instead certain councilors and advocacy groups fought for this outcome not directly, but indirectly by not understanding what the actual options were.

Secondly its not a greedy developer in this case, its a greedy landlord that can get away with it because we don't build enough housing in the city in any form, be it private, non-profit, or public.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

This revised alignment recommended by staff could cost an extra $35 million to $50 million, bringing the total cost estimate for the Barrhaven LRT project to $3.52 billion

Wasn't the Barrhaven LRT estimated at $3 billions ? $3.52 billions is more than 3/4 of the cost of stage 2. Expect that we would be building a single line instead of 5.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

Wasn't the Barrhaven LRT estimated at $3 billions ? $3.52 billions is more than 3/4 of the cost of stage 2. Expect that we would be building a single line instead of 5.

I don’t understand how the barrhaven extension can cost so much when the city already owns the entire ROW. Is it because of the Fallowfield grade separation? Noodle to Terry Fox is a 700 million project. How can it be more than triple that?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Athens

I don’t understand how the barrhaven extension can cost so much when the city already owns the entire ROW. Is it because of the Fallowfield grade separation? Noodle to Terry Fox is a 700 million project. How can it be more than triple that?

Except the city doesn't own the entire ROW. They don't own the couple blocks between Knoxdale and W. Hunt Club (which we are discussing). Whether they expropriate it or detour around it, it is going to be expensive. They may also need to acquire the land for the Barrhaven MSF (not sure though).

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Athens

I don’t understand how the barrhaven extension can cost so much when the city already owns the entire ROW. Is it because of the Fallowfield grade separation? Noodle to Terry Fox is a 700 million project. How can it be more than triple that?

The grade separation is approximately $400M (probably a bit more due to inflation).

I think the bulk of the cost for Algonquin to Fallowfield is due to building a grade-separated track in some of the worst soil conditions in the region. From Fallowfield to Barrhaven Town Centre, the cost is slightly inflated due to the additional MSF.

And then overall, construction inflation has hit really hard so the cost of everything has ballooned. Even Stage 2's cost grew by nearly $1B from inflation alone.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Except the city doesn't own the entire ROW. They don't own the couple blocks between Knoxdale and W. Hunt Club (which we are discussing). Whether they expropriate it or detour around it, it is going to be expensive. They may also need to acquire the land for the Barrhaven MSF (not sure though).

The city already owns the land for the proposed MSF site. It was allocated for future affordable housing.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Athens

I don’t understand how the barrhaven extension can cost so much when the city already owns the entire ROW. Is it because of the Fallowfield grade separation? Noodle to Terry Fox is a 700 million project. How can it be more than triple that?

There's no need for elevated infrastructure to extend the LRT to Terry Fox. The Barrhaven extension would be elevated from Algonquin College to the Nepean Sportsplex.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

There's no need for elevated infrastructure to extend the LRT to Terry Fox. The Barrhaven extension would be elevated from Algonquin College to the Nepean Sportsplex.

If you had told 5 year old me living in Manor Village in 1985 that some day there would be elevated trains flying by over Woodroffe, it would have blown my little mind

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

There's no need for elevated infrastructure to extend the LRT to Terry Fox. The Barrhaven extension would be elevated from Algonquin College to the Nepean Sportsplex.

On top of that, the only grade separation necessary is at the Eagleson interchange, since the grade separation at Moodie was needed to get to the MSF for Stage 2 and the (unused) underpass at Kanata Avenue was built over a decade ago.

[H>T&T>P]

Originally Posted by Athens

I don’t understand how the barrhaven extension can cost so much when the city already owns the entire ROW. Is it because of the Fallowfield grade separation? Noodle to Terry Fox is a 700 million project. How can it be more than triple that?

It's actually 3 grade separations for the VIA tracks. One for Woodroffe, LRT and then then Fallowfield. Also the extension of the trench from Highbury park to past the future Chapman Mills extension.

https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/barrhaven_lrt_boards18to33_en.pdf

[Arcologist]

At this point, given changes in working patterns (work-from-home vs commuting), is it really worth spending $3.5B for a Barrhaven LRT line? Seems ludicrous!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by H>T&T>P

It's actually 3 grade separations for the VIA tracks. One for Woodroffe, LRT and then then Fallowfield. Also the extension of the trench from Highbury park to past the future Chapman Mills extension.

https://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents/files/barrhaven_lrt_boards18to33_en.pdf

Except the Woodroffe grade separation is for cars only, not buses or the O-Train. Unless you beleive that car dependant infrastructure improvements should be come from transit funding (like the way the 2006 plan was designed to pay for the Vimy Memorial Bridge or the way the city wanted the stage 2 project to pay for the widening of the 174).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Except the Woodroffe grade separation is for cars only, not buses or the O-Train. Unless you beleive that car dependant infrastructure improvements should be come from transit funding (like the way the 2006 plan was designed to pay for the Vimy Memorial Bridge or the way the city wanted the stage 2 project to pay for the widening of the 174).

In this case, it's also an improvement for VIA Rail, which will help as they transition to HFR.

Disrespectful Pun Bridge also came with connectivity between two large suburban communities, one that did not have needed retail services for years. Connectivity was in form of cars, yes, but also pedestrian and cycling improvements. Though yes, focus was a bit too much on cars.

As for the 174, I'm happy the Province rejected the City's request for widening as part of Stage 2. First off, as someone who has lived in Orleans for 5 years, traffic is a non-issue in the morning, and only somewhat of a nuisance to Jeanne d'Arc in the evening. Second, widening the 174 would do nothing for cyclists and pedestrians. And of course 3rd, we want people stuck in traffic seeing the trains whiz-by; it's an incentive to switch.

Road improvements and new infrastructure are fine by me as long as they come with improvements to transit, cycling and pedestrian infrastructure, or in the case of a new east end bridge, remove a safety hazard from downtown and make movements through the city more efficient overall (ex. avoid detours).

[H>T&T>P]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Except the Woodroffe grade separation is for cars only, not buses or the O-Train. Unless you beleive that car dependant infrastructure improvements should be come from transit funding (like the way the 2006 plan was designed to pay for the Vimy Memorial Bridge or the way the city wanted the stage 2 project to pay for the widening of the 174).

True that the Woodroffe bridge is only for cars but the city has rolled it into the Phase 3 plan for coordination purposes and I assume to try and get that funded by the Federal and Provincial Governments.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Except the Woodroffe grade separation is for cars only, not buses or the O-Train. Unless you beleive that car dependant infrastructure improvements should be come from transit funding (like the way the 2006 plan was designed to pay for the Vimy Memorial Bridge or the way the city wanted the stage 2 project to pay for the widening of the 174).

The grade separation is bundled into the Stage 3 Barrhaven plan, and the Transitway/LRT would be grade separated at the same time.

The cost of the grade separation is included in the $3.52B estimate (in case that wasn't known).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The grade separation is bundled into the Stage 3 Barrhaven plan, and the Transitway/LRT would be grade separated at the same time.

Why am I not surprised. It seems to be the M.O. of this city.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The cost of the grade separation is included in the $3.52B estimate (in case that wasn't known).

How much of the $3.52B estimate is for the thee grade separations. Whether or not Stage 3 south-west is built, those will likely end up being built, so we can subtract them off of the project cost. In fact, grade separating the transitway would likely be more expensive than grade separating the O-Train.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why am I not surprised. It seems to be the M.O. of this city.



How much of the $3.52B estimate is for the thee grade separations. Whether or not Stage 3 south-west is built, those will likely end up being built, so we can subtract them off of the project cost. In fact, grade separating the transitway would likely be more expensive than grade separating the O-Train.

I think the estimate was $600 million. No doubt that could balloon to $1B if built today.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Disrespectful Pun Bridge

Translation?