Vancouver View Cones - Reviews and Amendments

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

The city does have a plan in place for medium density along arterials, and off arterials. Towers around Skytrain stations, and soon a 6 plex 4 plex plan for virtually all single detached areas. For the first time that I've ever seen, the whole CoV can/wiil be zoned/rezoned into all forms of residential housing - towers, mid-rise, multi-plex.

Having these 6 plexes off arterials is the best. Nobody wants to live on Broadway or Main, they want to be a block or two off of it in a quieter residential style area, with easy walkability to the arterials.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

House prices are all about interest rates, and the cost of a mortgage.

That's the demand side. If you choke off supply you'll see similar results as pumping demand.

Look at rents right now. They are insane. Vacancy rates are near record lows.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Having these 6 plexes off arterials is the best. Nobody wants to live on Broadway or Main, they want to be a block or two off of it in a quieter residential style area, with easy walkability to the arterials.

YMMV - other kinds of "everybody" will accept the noise in favour of living right on top of the amenities and transit stops. Best if the city proceeds as normal and does both kinds of zoning.

Originally Posted by logan5

... When you you do go taller in order to build more units in one project (instead of 2 buildings with the same number of units) you use our limited amount of labour far more efficiently. When you split the same number of units into 2 buildings because of view cone limitations, you have to repeat the long process of building another parkade, which can take years. That years long process and labour expense building another parkade could instead be focused on building more badly needed homes in one larger, taller project.

I believe it's building permits that're the bottleneck, not labour.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That's the demand side. If you choke off supply you'll see similar results as pumping demand.

Look at rents right now. They are insane. Vacancy rates are near record lows.

Sure. But that's not because construction of rentals has been falling. More rental units have been built in Vancouver in the past 5 years than in the previous 15 years. Almost 50% of housing starts have been rentals. The hike in interest rates means that fewer people are buying so there's pressure on the rental market. And it's only rents for vacant units that are much higher. Most tenants in existing apartments have seen their rent increases far less than inflation, thanks to Provincial rent control. That's good for those tenants, but has the consequence that landlords are trying to match their inflated costs by raising rents on the units that do become available (and because there's plenty of demand).

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The time taken to dig a deep hole for say an eight storey parkade is at least twice as long as it takes to dig a four storey hole. It gets more difficult to remove the spoil the deeper you go, and the rock gets harder. If the hole gets below the glacial till, you hit even harder rock, and have to blast the rock out.

Don’t believe you. Sorry.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

YMMV - other kinds of "everybody" will accept the noise in favour of living right on top of the amenities and transit stops. Best if the city proceeds as normal and does both kinds of zoning.



I believe it's building permits that're the bottleneck, not labour.

The red tape part doesn’t use up labour resources.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Sure. But that's not because construction of rentals has been falling. More rental units have been built in Vancouver in the past 5 years than in the previous 15 years. Almost 50% of housing starts have been rentals. The hike in interest rates means that fewer people are buying so there's pressure on the rental market. And it's only rents for vacant units that are much higher. Most tenants in existing apartments have seen their rent increases far less than inflation, thanks to Provincial rent control. That's good for those tenants, but has the consequence that landlords are trying to match their inflated costs by raising rents on the units that do become available (and because there's plenty of demand).

Rentals vs. Strata really doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things. With the vacancy tax, they will get occupied when they are completed.

We're still far underbuilding for demand.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The time taken to dig a deep hole for say an eight storey parkade is at least twice as long as it takes to dig a four storey hole. It gets more difficult to remove the spoil the deeper you go, and the rock gets harder. If the hole gets below the glacial till, you hit even harder rock, and have to blast the rock out.

You really don't, unless you're working on the North Shore anyways. In that case you might run into some very strong bedrock, but generally that's not where the towers are getting built.

The bedrock in the city isn't that difficult for an excavator, though you might have to use a hydraulic hammer. I helped do a few deep shafts around here.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by logan5

Don’t believe you. Sorry.

The geography or the length of time they mentioned?

I'd just add that a deeper parkade in general is a pain (cost-wise and unforeseen issues). We've hit a few snags close to bodies of water (obviously) or in strange parts of town with old waterways and slabs of those glacial till (no blasting but it does take more time / money to deal with) or aquifers. Then there is the added cost of rebar and concrete, elevators, building footings and pilings for excavation - the sheer weight support for a taller building as well. It's just plain expensive.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Rentals vs. Strata really doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things. With the vacancy tax, they will get occupied when they are completed.

We're still far underbuilding for demand.

I agree. But I'm not sure if there are simple solutions, and whatever they are, I don't see abandoning viewcones as making any difference. There may be valid reasons to do that, but affordability isn't one of them.

Because I track developments I know there are tens of thousands of approved units that aren't being built yet across the region, including in Vancouver. Maybe we need a vacant site tax, as well as vacant units taxes. Holborn have sat on their approved rental building site opposite Woodwards for six years (and longer on the Bay Parkade and Little Mountain). There are other examples, where developers have taken years to submit a scheme (Burrard and Davie for example) and then take years before they actually build it.

It's not like construction has slowed down; housing starts last year were above the 10 year average in both the City and the rest of Metro Vancouver.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I agree. But I'm not sure if there are simple solutions, and whatever they are, I don't see abandoning viewcones as making any difference. There may be valid reasons to do that, but affordability isn't one of them.

Because I track developments I know there are tens of thousands of approved units that aren't being built yet across the region, including in Vancouver. Maybe we need a vacant site tax, as well as vacant units taxes. Holborn have sat on their approved rental building site opposite Woodwards for six years (and longer on the Bay Parkade and Little Mountain). There are other examples, where developers have taken years to submit a scheme (Burrard and Davie for example) and then take years before they actually build it.

It's not like construction has slowed down; housing starts last year were above the 10 year average in both the City and the rest of Metro Vancouver.

I do think those "park conversions" of empty land to avoid property tax are garbage. That program should end.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

You really don't, unless you're working on the North Shore anyways. In that case you might run into some very strong bedrock, but generally that's not where the towers are getting built.

The bedrock in the city isn't that difficult for an excavator, though you might have to use a hydraulic hammer. I helped do a few deep shafts around here.

I acknowledge your greater experience with holes! I understood that it depends where the hole is. The bedrock is close to the surface on parts of Cambie for example - that why the quarry that became QE Park was there. And we've seen blasting needed in a number of McMinsen's finest holes - most recently Burrard Place. Maybe it's the glacial material that has become so dense from the extra pressure that it has to be blasted?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I do think those "park conversions" of empty land to avoid property tax are garbage. That program should end.

That's down to BC Assessment - I'm not sure who tells them how to operate, but it isn't The City.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I agree. But I'm not sure if there are simple solutions, and whatever they are, I don't see abandoning viewcones as making any difference. There may be valid reasons to do that, but affordability isn't one of them.

Because I track developments I know there are tens of thousands of approved units that aren't being built yet across the region, including in Vancouver. Maybe we need a vacant site tax, as well as vacant units taxes. Holborn have sat on their approved rental building site opposite Woodwards for six years (and longer on the Bay Parkade and Little Mountain). There are other examples, where developers have taken years to submit a scheme (Burrard and Davie for example) and then take years before they actually build it.

It's not like construction has slowed down; housing starts last year were above the 10 year average in both the City and the rest of Metro Vancouver.

I would love to see a vacant site tax if for nothing else than finally getting something built on that vacant lot at Robson & Broughton!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logan5

The red tape part doesn’t use up labour resources.

Labour isn't a problem - shortage or no shortage, Metro Vancouver currently has more stuff under construction than ever.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

The geography or the length of time they mentioned?

I'd just add that a deeper parkade in general is a pain (cost-wise and unforeseen issues). We've hit a few snags close to bodies of water (obviously) or in strange parts of town with old waterways and slabs of those glacial till (no blasting but it does take more time / money to deal with) or aquifers. Then there is the added cost of rebar and concrete, elevators, building footings and pilings for excavation - the sheer weight support for a taller building as well. It's just plain expensive.

The time it takes. New crane. New piles. All so learning a new job takes quite a bit of time. Once you’ve done a few floors, things move a lot faster. Same with the residential floors. It’s a whole new learning process that takes a lot of time. Just like if you were a chef entering a new kitchen. You move 4 times faster when you know that kitchen, instead of looking through draws and cupboards for things, and dealing with people you don’t know.

I don’t have a study backing me up, but I’m fairly certain 1 60 story building will complete much faster than 2 30 story buildings.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by logan5

I don’t have a study backing me up, but I’m fairly certain 1 60 story building will complete much faster than 2 30 story buildings.

If all three buildings start digging their holes on the same day? Good luck finding an example of that!

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I acknowledge your greater experience with holes! I understood that it depends where the hole is. The bedrock is close to the surface on parts of Cambie for example - that why the quarry that became QE Park was there. And we've seen blasting needed in a number of McMinsen's finest holes - most recently Burrard Place. Maybe it's the glacial material that has become so dense from the extra pressure that it has to be blasted?

The area around Little Mountain is one of the few areas with igneous (volcanic) bedrock in Vancouver. There's also a couple of little outcrops near VCC. That's about it though.

This is a good map.

[jollyburger]

But the important question. Will 2 60 storey towers complete faster than 1 120 storey tower?

I wonder how much the costs of the structure for a 60 storey tower compare to a 20 storey tower. The cost of the building and the ability for a developer to sell/rent the units is probably more important than any time savings from adding floors to a building versus developing two towers of a shorter height.

I think this series is more about supertalls but has some relevants details on the cost/benefit of adding height to a tower.

https://buildingtheskyline.org/economics-of-skyscraper-height-series/

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I do think those "park conversions" of empty land to avoid property tax are garbage. That program should end.

Amen to that! Wasn't the NDP supposed to be looking into it?

I'd love to see "minimum zoning" to go with maximum zoning. Driving down Granville I noticed that in addition to all the new townhouses going up south of 49th, someone was actually building a new SFH! Silly.