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  #8741  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
It's a great question....every single one of them has a different excuse....game day experience, whatever that means, true north doesn't care about them, the food, the sight lines, the seats, the cost of tickets, the cost of beer...it's a never ending list....I personally think COVID has made people sedentary and they are just looking for excuses to convince themselves they should stay home.

I look at my beer league hockey that used to have 12 divisions, and now it has six....my summer slow pitch league had 16 teams and now it has 8....i honestly think working from home and the general routine of not going out has created a sedentary society....and in the smallest city in the NHL that has significant repercussions.

I truly believe life has become a competition to see who can never leave their house the most.....we skip food instead of going to restaurants, we watch Netflix instead of going to movies.
1000% nailed it right there. only thing missing is legalizing of weed / edibles. i'm in the 45-50 crowd and I know many in the 25-40 and many of them are eating some gummies and watching the game in the basement on the 65" tv and chilling
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  #8742  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
It's a great question....every single one of them has a different excuse....game day experience, whatever that means, true north doesn't care about them, the food, the sight lines, the seats, the cost of tickets, the cost of beer...it's a never ending list....I personally think COVID has made people sedentary and they are just looking for excuses to convince themselves they should stay home.

I look at my beer league hockey that used to have 12 divisions, and now it has six....my summer slow pitch league had 16 teams and now it has 8....i honestly think working from home and the general routine of not going out has created a sedentary society....and in the smallest city in the NHL that has significant repercussions.

I truly believe life has become a competition to see who can never leave their house the most.....we skip food instead of going to restaurants, we watch Netflix instead of going to movies.
I think there is some truth to this, but I also feel it's only part of the story. This perspective glosses over the massive economic and social upheaval the pandemic caused that extends beyond laziness. Have people gotten used to a bit more of a lazy, convenient lifestyle of staying home due to being forced to do so for 2 years? Yes, to a certain extent. But that's only part of the story.

Since the pandemic, we've seen record inflation, people are working less hours for a variety of reasons, older people are retiring at faster rates, housing costs and interest rates have hit recent highs, wages haven't kept up with inflation, and people have become a lot more bitter about their fellow man following divergences in philosophy among groups on how we approach a global crisis.

Sure, an increasingly large amount of people may prefer to order food on Skip/Doordash, or watch a Jets game on TV in the comfort of their home instead of buying $100 tickets and braving the cold, but I'd argue people are just exhausted. Exhausted by the pandemic, exhausted by the cost of living, exhausted by "trying to keep up", exhausted by paycheques that never seem to rise faster than the price of food and gas, exhausted by social media, and so on. And this isn't a local phenomena, it's global. It's just that Winnipeg's market is smaller than other major places in Canada that have NHL teams, so perhaps this issue is being reflected more acutely in Jets' attendance.

Oh, and let's not forget that a bunch of people actually died during the pandemic. And lots of people were left with long term complications. Oh, and two years of isolation meant a fall/winter this year where other respiratory illnesses began running rampant and overloading hospitals and healthcare systems across Canada and the world as people began getting back to their usual daily activities.

So forgive society for not being so quick to unload $250 on NHL tickets, parking, and hot dogs when the value of that money is ever shrinking for the average household relative to the cost of groceries, interest rates, housing, and fuel, while also trying to avoid catching the 4th flu/cough for the year, and being exhausted by your workplace that can't or won't find staff to fill their ever increasing list of vacant positions while offering you a nice 1.3% wage increase in the face of 6.8% inflation, while hearing constant 24/7 news about an impending recession and social anxiety about how everyone is going to afford their house or rent in this high interest rate, high commodity price environment.

Chalking up declines in consumer interest in certain sectors as everyone just being lazy is, in itself, a lazy response that ignores so many economic and social issues.

Anecdotally, the restaurants I've all been to in the past few months have been absolutely packed and difficult to get reservations at.
     
     
  #8743  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 8:35 PM
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yeah.....wasnt an issue for the first ten years....isnt an issue for the 30 cities ahead of the jets in attendance....including all those cities we used to make fun of for not being 'real hockey fans'
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
agreed 100%.

I was in Vancouver recently and came out of a downtown shopping mall built exclusively for rich people....it was packed....it dawned on me then...how can Winnipeg ever compete with cities like this?....I can't buy an expensive shirt in Winnipeg even if I want to....the canucks are terrible but there's still a line of people who don't care that tickets cost $100...in Winnipeg, once the cobbled together groups who bought tickets went away, the harsh truth was exposed...there isn't enough wealth here to be a major league city.

I just hope they don't leave again until I'm dead.
Well of course they're not gonna compete with Vancouver, that's one of the richest franchises in the whole league lol. Being a low-revenue team doesn't automatically equate to being unviable. Based on attendance and ticket prices, if the Jets are unviable at the current numbers then so are Ottawa, Florida, Columbus, New Jersey, Buffalo, Arizona and probably San Jose, with Calgary and Anaheim not much better.

There are 28 teams ahead of them in attendance, with NJ, BUF and ARI behind. I don't think ARI would be in a different position regardless of the building.

They have the smallest arena, of course they have among the lowest attendance! But there's so much more to the economics than how many butts are in the seats. The lease or mortgage, the share of parking and other revenues, etc where True North is in a pretty favorable position. Plus pro sports teams often don't make much money but they can anchor other revenue streams - as long as they're making money off their property investments in the area why would they send the team away?

I feel like people's egos are just hurt because they don't fill the building anymore and it turns into this typical Winnipegger inferiority complex doom-and-gloom stuff. Just accept that they're a poor team, but probably a pretty stable one.
     
     
  #8744  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 8:44 PM
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Like I said, in 1995, everything was a crisis for the Jets. Empty seats, ownership, arena, lack of a salary cap to ensure competitiveness. 3 out of those 4 things are fixed. And empty seats are still a pretty minor problem. I mean, we're talking barely 1,000 empty seats a game on average, almost all in the cheapest seating areas.

I realize the problem could get worse (especially if prices keep going up), but this is far from some kind of death spiral situation.
     
     
  #8745  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 9:44 PM
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Like I said, in 1995, everything was a crisis for the Jets. Empty seats, ownership, arena, lack of a salary cap to ensure competitiveness. 3 out of those 4 things are fixed. And empty seats are still a pretty minor problem. I mean, we're talking barely 1,000 empty seats a game on average, almost all in the cheapest seating areas.

I realize the problem could get worse (especially if prices keep going up), but this is far from some kind of death spiral situation.
we are talking about 1500 seats in the smallest building in the league by far....if they had a normal sized building we would be talking about 3500 empty seats.

and those seats are sold in a dollar worth 70% of what 2/3 of the league takes in....they also have the fewest luxury suites in the league....

those empty seats don't buy beer or food, or parking.....where is the revenue coming from if not people going to the games?....i'm pretty sure their tv deal is pretty small compared to other cities.
     
     
  #8746  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 9:49 PM
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we are talking about 1500 seats in the smallest building in the league by far....if they had a normal sized building we would be talking about 3500 empty seats.

and those seats are sold in a dollar worth 70% of what 2/3 of the league takes in....they also have the fewest luxury suites in the league....

those empty seats don't buy beer or food, or parking.....where is the revenue coming from if not people going to the games?....i'm pretty sure their tv deal is pretty small compared to other cities.
What's going on here... usually I'm the pessimist and you're the optimist

The bottom line is if teams in the US can easily withstand things like this, then I think we will be quite alright:



     
     
  #8747  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:07 PM
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Well of course they're not gonna compete with Vancouver, that's one of the richest franchises in the whole league lol. Being a low-revenue team doesn't automatically equate to being unviable. Based on attendance and ticket prices, if the Jets are unviable at the current numbers then so are Ottawa, Florida, Columbus, New Jersey, Buffalo, Arizona and probably San Jose, with Calgary and Anaheim not much better.

There are 28 teams ahead of them in attendance, with NJ, BUF and ARI behind. I don't think ARI would be in a different position regardless of the building.

They have the smallest arena, of course they have among the lowest attendance! But there's so much more to the economics than how many butts are in the seats. The lease or mortgage, the share of parking and other revenues, etc where True North is in a pretty favorable position. Plus pro sports teams often don't make much money but they can anchor other revenue streams - as long as they're making money off their property investments in the area why would they send the team away?

I feel like people's egos are just hurt because they don't fill the building anymore and it turns into this typical Winnipegger inferiority complex doom-and-gloom stuff. Just accept that they're a poor team, but probably a pretty stable one.
pick any other NHL city....I just used Vancouver because I happened to be there....what city has less wealth than Winnipeg?

I don't accept that it is inherently a stable franchise...there is no reason to believe that...it is a business like any other....I think its absolutely naive to believe Winnipeg is a lock as a major league market.

Are you suggesting that the lucrative real estate market in downtown Winnipeg is what we should hang our hat on to be competitive?...that's an even worse argument.

the share of parking (what parking?) and other revenues is my point...Winnipeg is at a disadvantage there too...the 3500 people fewer than the median going to jets games aren't buying beer, parking or contributing to any other revenue stream.

Florida, Columbus, New Jersey, Buffalo, Arizona, San Jose are probably on the edge too...but at least they have larger markets to tap from....Buffalo is the only city that isnt at least twice the population of Winnipeg...and it is 50% larger....22 NHL cities are at least 3 times larger than Winnipeg.

even beyond economics, its pretty embarrassing that we thumped our chests so much about being such a great hockey market....looked down our noses at all those warm weather cities...and a decade into getting our team back we have one of the best teams in the league and one of the lowest attendances....and everyone defends it!....we should feel inferior....using NHL attendance as a metric....we are.
     
     
  #8748  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:09 PM
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I don't think the Florida Panthers are the benchmark of a stable franchise.
     
     
  #8749  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:13 PM
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It does amaze me, not just here but in general, how complacent Winnipeggers are about the poor attendance at Jets games....I don't think people realize just how much smaller and less wealthy Winnipeg is compared to the other cities.....the absolute most basic metric that we can control is attendance, and now we are even letting that go.
     
     
  #8750  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:19 PM
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Winnipeg has one of the lowest costs to go to a game in the league....



https://globalnews.ca/news/9179433/nhl-game-cost-canadian-city-rankings/
     
     
  #8751  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:28 PM
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Winnipeg has one of the lowest costs to go to a game in the league....



https://globalnews.ca/news/9179433/nhl-game-cost-canadian-city-rankings/
The only time the Jets and TNSE and fans need to worry is when Winnipeg falls on the other side of the coin and requires revenue sharing from the league in the same way that Phoenix and Florida often do. When owners have to start bailing out teams consistently then we could be in trouble.
     
     
  #8752  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:39 PM
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It does amaze me, not just here but in general, how complacent Winnipeggers are about the poor attendance at Jets games....I don't think people realize just how much smaller and less wealthy Winnipeg is compared to the other cities.....the absolute most basic metric that we can control is attendance, and now we are even letting that go.
If push came to shove and Winnipeg needed to bump up attendance to satisfy some ultimatum laid down by Chipman and Thomson, I'm confident it would happen. If that was all it would have taken in 1995, we never would have lost the team... people would have stepped up and bought tickets. I don't think that selling another 1,500 season tickets or whatever would be some insurmountable goal.

We are in a rough ebb right now between the pandemic, inflation and a shaky economy. Some people will dial back their hockey ticket buying habits. But by and large I don't think people are losing interest in the product and that's a key factor here.
     
     
  #8753  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:45 PM
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If push came to shove and Winnipeg needed to bump up attendance to satisfy some ultimatum laid down by Chipman and Thomson, I'm confident it would happen. If that was all it would have taken in 1995, we never would have lost the team... people would have stepped up and bought tickets. I don't think that selling another 1,500 season tickets or whatever would be some insurmountable goal.

We are in a rough ebb right now between the pandemic, inflation and a shaky economy. Some people will dial back their hockey ticket buying habits. But by and large I don't think people are losing interest in the product and that's a key factor here.
I have season tickets and we were in the lower bowl. $11,500 for two seats. No extra perks for being season ticket holders. This year, we all agreed money was tighter and we took a half season in the upper bowl after basically being threatened legal action since we had asked about getting out of our contract a year earlier than we were supposed to because of economic downturns for some of our shareholders for seats. It basically became untenable.

So, yes, I absolutely agree with your point, Esquire. I just hope TNSE has learned their lesson in all of this as well. I was treated like crap by their rep and it has made our remaining group ponder whether we even want to keep season ticket seats going into next year.
     
     
  #8754  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:54 PM
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Percent capacity is a meaningless statistic.

The owners don't get bonus points for percentage of the population that goes to games....by that logic, would a sold out 5,000 seat arena in Regina be a viable NHL franchise?

The fact is, Winnipeg does not have the revenue streams that larger cities do...television, merchandise, tickets, concessions....by almost every metric....they also bring in Canadian dollars.

Winnipeg is the smallest market in North American major league sports and it has the smallest arena in the NHL. You are right that attendance is down in other places as well, but that hits extra hard when you are already the most economically disadvantaged franchise in the league.

Jets fans are showing their true colours....they either can't afford it, or they don't prioritize it enough to pay for it.

One of the best teams in the NHL has one of the lowest attendances....that is not something to brush off....it should worry people....the malaise has set in...everyone has an excuse....the food isnt good enough, too many tuesday games, the game day experience is bad.....it all adds up to lower revenues for an already low revenue team.
My point isn't that Winnipeg is doing better than San Jose because we're at 93% capacity and they're at 80%. Winnipegers, per capita, are bigger supporters of their hockey team than arguably any other market in the league. We agree that we don't have the population base to produce the largest revenue numbers in the league, no argument there. But I can't agree that the drop in attendance in Winnipeg is caused by an economic inability of our specific market to purchase the product or that our population has abandoned the team! What is your explanation for Chicago? Chicago has 9.62 million in the metro and they draw 15,833 per game. Where are the rest of the 9.61 million people? Have you questioned the fans in San Jose about why they aren't attending Sharks games in as bigger numbers as before? Are they claiming the game day experience is bad or the sightlines are bad? Don't they make a lot more money than we do? And there are more of them!

In any market, there are only a certain number of people who will have any interest in going to an NHL game. We've proven time and again that the proportion of Winnipegers willing and wanting to go to a Jets game is as high or higher as anywhere else. Whether that's enough to support a major league team, from a raw numbers perspective, is another argument.

Considering the majority of markets is also experiencing a decline in attendance, I don't buy that what's happening in Winnipeg is indicative of an inability of the market to support the team.
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  #8755  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 11:12 PM
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agreed 100%.

I was in Vancouver recently and came out of a downtown shopping mall built exclusively for rich people....it was packed....it dawned on me then...how can Winnipeg ever compete with cities like this?....I can't buy an expensive shirt in Winnipeg even if I want to....the canucks are terrible but there's still a line of people who don't care that tickets cost $100...in Winnipeg, once the cobbled together groups who bought tickets went away, the harsh truth was exposed...there isn't enough wealth here to be a major league city.

I just hope they don't leave again until I'm dead.
I'm curious about the name of this downtown mall in Vancouver which was "built exclusively for rich people"?
     
     
  #8756  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 11:14 PM
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we are talking about 1500 seats in the smallest building in the league by far
Let's be real here for a second. The Coyotes currently play out of an arena with capacity less than 1/3 of Canada Life Centre and they will need to play there for a minimum of three full seasons. Sure there is a proposal to build a new 16,000 seat arena in Tempe but if you read up on the site issues (a former landfill located in the Sky Harbour airport exclusion zone) and the past history of the site (Cardinals being blocked by a court challenge from building a stadium on the site just over ten years ago) that alone is anything but certain. The ability of the Coyotes team to front the estimated $1.2 billion cost of the development is definitely another huge concern.

We also need to be real that behind close doors the league absolutely needs to be looking at alternatives to keeping the team in the Phoenix market. Name me one other market this sort of situation would even be allowed to get to this point.
     
     
  #8757  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 12:11 AM
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we are talking about 1500 seats in the smallest building in the league by far....if they had a normal sized building we would be talking about 3500 empty seats.

and those seats are sold in a dollar worth 70% of what 2/3 of the league takes in....they also have the fewest luxury suites in the league....

those empty seats don't buy beer or food, or parking.....where is the revenue coming from if not people going to the games?....i'm pretty sure their tv deal is pretty small compared to other cities.
I heard the new regional tv deal is significantly higher that the old one (which I heard was only around $7 - $10 million a year). Not far off from the Ottawa regional tv deal that averages $33 million per year...in a small region sandwiched between the two largest NHL markets in the league...and having smaller tv ratings than the Jets.
     
     
  #8758  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 12:12 AM
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Our group has 4 P3s in the lowerbowl and most of us enjoy going out before the games to pregame and chat . Whether it be The Market , Shark Club , Browns , Tavern , The Met ( closed this year for some reason ), Earls or Local we enjoy the pregame environment looking forward to the game . I go to 25 or so games and would much rather be live than at home watching on 65 inch TV . Some of the group have grumbled about TN treatment , beer prices etc but we have agreed that we will not give up our tickets , we love hockey and The Jets and people who do need to support the team in a market like this under a million or else they could be another 1995 over again . Getting to Arizona, Mullet Arena capacity is 4610 not 5000 And 500 of those seats are set aside for ASU students at $25 each so Coyotes are basically relying on 4110 seats to pay their bills for the foreseeable future!

Last edited by pegcityboy; Jan 24, 2023 at 12:41 AM.
     
     
  #8759  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 12:20 AM
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So on the HF boards a few months back a poster started a thread asking why Canadian teams, including Winnipeg, were no longer selling out. This is what I posted in response.

Inflation - working class, middle class and even upper-middle class people are cutting back on single-game tickets, mini-packs, season tickets due to the cost of other essentials rising 10% or more over the past year. Even some smaller businesses are cutting back due to loss of revenue.

ticket prices rising 5 - 10% or more per year for 2 decades - this has outpaced salary increases for the vast majority of people which typically amounts to 1-2% per year. We were eventually going to reach this at some point where something had to give, even in markets where the demand for hockey is high. This phenomenon applies to US sports as well. We now rely more than ever on corporations to buy blocks of seats to compensate for the loss of individual season ticket holders.
     
     
  #8760  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 1:32 AM
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I have season tickets and we were in the lower bowl. $11,500 for two seats. No extra perks for being season ticket holders. This year, we all agreed money was tighter and we took a half season in the upper bowl after basically being threatened legal action since we had asked about getting out of our contract a year earlier than we were supposed to because of economic downturns for some of our shareholders for seats. It basically became untenable.

So, yes, I absolutely agree with your point, Esquire. I just hope TNSE has learned their lesson in all of this as well. I was treated like crap by their rep and it has made our remaining group ponder whether we even want to keep season ticket seats going into next year.
I had heard through the grapevine of that particular threat being wielded against season ticket holders. I've never heard of anyone actually being sued by TNSE, but making that threat is not exactly a way to make friends. And I think the wild financial ride that many people went on during the pandemic has probably given pause before signing on for an expensive multi year commitment, especially now that the resale market is not what it once was. Again, it all comes down to cost... $10,000, $15,000 is a lot of money for most people in Winnipeg. We don't have a small army of c-suite executives like Toronto who can take on costs like that without giving it a second thought.

But I thought the Jets backed off on the multi year commitment requirement? Hard for them not to considering that there are empty seats in so many sections. I mean, I get the commitment for premium seats that are held by corporations or rich people, but even my old upper bowl season tickets one row from the very top came with a 3 year commitment which I thought was crazy.
     
     
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