PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I hope you know he was kidding about saving the borough.

Also, the plan for the arena is in fact to ring it with retail - per everything that's been released about it.

These guys are going to drop $2B on East Market street - there's simply no way the city caters to a small neighborhood association.

The difference before was that the city was building/subsidizing the Phillies arena - this is a private investment. These guys are powerful and mean business - I don't see any scenario that this doesn't happen.

Agreed. I think they're trying to put out a "hey we're all about being a team-player, Philly!" vibe but in the end end, they're gunna bulldoze through this little community association like a paper room divider.

I lived about 2 blocks from the Barclays Center site for about 4 years ending in 2001 (Prospect and Flatbush - Park Slope). Park Slope was a super high end part of Brook and by the time we left, it was all professionals and medicals. We paid $1300 for a 2 bedroom there and by the time we left, it was $1900/mo. Our neighbor told us the people that moved in after us paid $2900/mo. The place was on FIRE. One of my favorite places to live ever.

There was a big box mall on Atlantic Ave (Best Buy, Old Navy, Marshalls PC Richards etc) but a lot of the surrounding store fronts were lower scale. Even downtown Brook had really not started turning at that point. There was Juniors and Brooklyn College but a lot of stuff that ended up going bye-bye. There's also a MAJOR commuter hub right there and I believe they needed to build over tracks when they built the arena. I seem to remember walking from our place to that mall (down 6th street) and over tracks (LIRR maybe?).

Atlantic Ave It wasn't super nice and it wasn't bad. If I had to compare an area to the area that became the Barclays Center, it would be ....Market East. It's actually in the same, exact state of development as that area of Brooklyn was prior to that development. Or at least when I left.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

OK, let's speculate then. We know that the Sixers are not staying at WFC past 2031. We know that they will build their own arena somewhere. So if Market East gets denied what other options do they have?

Waterfront - got rejected

Navy Yard was pitched as a possibility but not sure where it would go?

SY/30th St/West Philly - Again not sure where it would go

Somewhere in North Philly?

Camden.

I guess I'm curious to hear opinions on where they can put an arena if not at Market East?

If we're being purely speculative, I still think the best location for a new arena outside of Center City is Broad and Lehigh--specifically on the SW corner, which is currently home to a gas station. This would represent a great opportunity for public (the City, SEPTA, Amtrak, and PennDOT) and private entities to come together and create a truly energetic neighborhood. There is a ton of momentum to the south and east of Broad and Lehigh, with potential for an injection of energy from the north with the Beury Building project. A new arena would surely kick off a wave of development around North Philadelphia Station, especially in concert with the North Station District and restoration of 2700 North Broad. Additionally, this part of North Philly has the infrastructure to support large crowds going into and coming from a new arena. The North Philadelphia BSL stop has both local and express platforms, Amtrak's North Philadelphia Station could support increased SEPTA and Amtrak service, and a rebuilt and fully ADA-accessible North Broad Station serve all six Regional Rail lines that serve the north end of the system. Finally, both Broad Street and Lehigh Avenue are wide enough to support larger traffic volumes.

A Broad and Lehigh arena, in combination with transportation investment from SEPTA/Amtrak/PennDOT, private investment, and a Temple presence, could transform a criminally underutilized and underinvested neighborhood into one of the city's most dynamic.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

If we're being purely speculative, I still think the best location for a new arena outside of Center City is Broad and Lehigh--specifically on the SW corner, which is currently home to a gas station.

That's called a pipe dream

I'm just happy the liacouras center was built because in today's hyper sensitive anti-intellectual environment, it probably would be blocked. I liked going up to Temple last night and walking around spending some money ("Ruining the neighborhood" as some of you would say).

[Jerryiz]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Agreed. I think they're trying to put out a "hey we're all about being a team-player, Philly!" vibe but in the end end, they're gunna bulldoze through this little community association like a paper room divider.

I lived about 2 blocks from the Barclays Center site for about 4 years ending in 2001 (Prospect and Flatbush - Park Slope). Park Slope was a super high end part of Brook and by the time we left, it was all professionals and medicals. We paid $1300 for a 2 bedroom there and by the time we left, it was $1900/mo. Our neighbor told us the people that moved in after us paid $2900/mo. The place was on FIRE. One of my favorite places to live ever.

There was a big box mall on Atlantic Ave (Best Buy, Old Navy, Marshalls PC Richards etc) but a lot of the surrounding store fronts were lower scale. Even downtown Brook had really not started turning at that point. There was Juniors and Brooklyn College but a lot of stuff that ended up going bye-bye. There's also a MAJOR commuter hub right there and I believe they needed to build over tracks when they built the arena. I seem to remember walking from our place to that mall (down 6th street) and over tracks (LIRR maybe?).

Atlantic Ave It wasn't super nice and it wasn't bad. If I had to compare an area to the area that became the Barclays Center, it would be ....Market East. It's actually in the same, exact state of development as that area of Brooklyn was prior to that development. Or at least when I left.

I know the area that you lived. My brother owns one of the newer buildings on Atlantic and Cumberland, so I have personally witnessed the growth over the years. That area is a GREAT area ..I can only hope that Market East would be that successful...It would be a great model to follow if it uses Park Slope's model. !

[McBane]

I think you all are thinking too hard. The answer is obvious. If the City won't support the Market East plan, then the Sixers will likely conclude the City is not a genuine partner or a welcoming location. And with NJ willing to throw millions to build anything in Camden, the next logical step is Camden, right next to their practice facility.

And while Squilla and the mayor have Chinatown NIMBYs screaming in his ear, they're not the only ones they're listening to. The unions are still very powerful and you think they're just sitting back quietly? I'm sure there are other interests and power brokers (Jefferson perhaps?) who are surely pushing for this arena to happen. I know we've seen Councilmen being lazy and deferring zoning changes to the community, but this is much bigger than a simple condo tower.

I think it will happen but the City will have to squeeze more out of the Sixers to save face.

As I've said before, my main concern is that the arena will entrench existing parking lots of which Chinatown has many. I hope when negotiations get serious, something is done (I don't know what) to encourage development.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by McBane

I think you all are thinking too hard. The answer is obvious. If the City won't support the Market East plan, then the Sixers will likely conclude the City is not a genuine partner or a welcoming location. And with NJ willing to throw millions to build anything in Camden, the next logical step is Camden, right next to their practice facility.

And while Squilla and the mayor have Chinatown NIMBYs screaming in his ear, they're not the only ones they're listening to. The unions are still very powerful and you think they're just sitting back quietly? I'm sure there are other interests and power brokers (Jefferson perhaps?) who are surely pushing for this arena to happen. I know we've seen Councilmen being lazy and deferring zoning changes to the community, but this is much bigger than a simple condo tower.

I think it will happen but the City will have to squeeze more out of the Sixers to save face.

As I've said before, my main concern is that the arena will entrench existing parking lots of which Chinatown has many. I hope when negotiations get serious, something is done (I don't know what) to encourage development.

I am one of the biggest pro-Market East arena folks there are, but I just don't see how it could be possible moving to Camden would be in the best long-term financial interest of the Sixers, no matter how much in tax breaks they get. I'm a season ticket holder and I will cancel if they go to Camden, and I know I'm not the only one. Sure, they'll pick up some other would-be season ticket holders in South Jersey but the Sixers are one of the NBA's legacy teams in the same way Philly is one of the country's legacy cities. All of the other legacy franchises - the Knicks, the Celtics, the Lakers - all have urban arenas in the center of town. I think the Sixers will diminish themselves in brand value moving the Camden, way more than NJ can reasonably offer in tax credits. They'd be better off staying in South Philly than moving to Camden even if it's not their preference.

Another thing I've been thinking about is the fact that there is another RCO that has jurisdiction over this site according to the City's website OpenMaps, Center City Organized for Responsible Development. In fact they have jurisdiction over a larger portion of the site, while PCDC controls just the portion north of Filbert St. Do they have a position? Perhaps the problem is that this RCO isn't wholly in Squilla's district, while the PCDC is. I guess I just don't understand why PCDC is being given so much deference when there's another RCO and the rest of the City that ought to have a say here too. We don't give any other ethnic-group-neighborhood this kind of deference. And don't get me wrong, I love Chinatown, and I want it to stay, I just think the arena will have very little impact on Chinatown, much less being a threat to it's existence, and might actually boost it. But I think it's worth asking the question of why we give such deference to PCDC, and is that really fair to everyone else who doesn't get that treatment? What is the position of Center City Organized for Responsible Development? RCO vs RCO might be the fight here. I really hope the arena happens personally, I think it will be good for the City and for Chinatown.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Another thing I've been thinking about is the fact that there is another RCO that has jurisdiction over this site according to the City's website OpenMaps, Center City Organized for Responsible Development. In fact they have jurisdiction over a larger portion of the site, while PCDC controls just the portion north of Filbert St. Do they have a position? Perhaps the problem is that this RCO isn't wholly in Squilla's district, while the PCDC is. I guess I just don't understand why PCDC is being given so much deference when there's another RCO and the rest of the City that ought to have a say here too. We don't give any other ethnic-group-neighborhood this kind of deference. And don't get me wrong, I love Chinatown, and I want it to stay, I just think the arena will have very little impact on Chinatown, much less being a threat to it's existence, and might actually boost it. But I think it's worth asking the question of why we give such deference to PCDC, and is that really fair to everyone else who doesn't get that treatment? What is the position of Center City Organized for Responsible Development? RCO vs RCO might be the fight here. I really hope the arena happens personally, I think it will be good for the City and for Chinatown.

Never heard of Center City Organized for Responsible Development before, but I’ll take a wild guess they’d be on the side of the opponents from Chinatown. Their mailing address is at Arch Street United Methodist Church.

No recent activity on their fb page: https://www.facebook.com/CCORDRCO/about

CCORD is an RCO that values affordable housing, a living wage, and community leadership. We make decisions with these values in mind and also work beyond the RCO capacity to advocate with other organizations for more equitable development in Center City and Old City.

…and a minimal website: https://ccord.my-free.website/

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

If we're being purely speculative, I still think the best location for a new arena outside of Center City is Broad and Lehigh--specifically on the SW corner, which is currently home to a gas station. This would represent a great opportunity for public (the City, SEPTA, Amtrak, and PennDOT) and private entities to come together and create a truly energetic neighborhood. There is a ton of momentum to the south and east of Broad and Lehigh, with potential for an injection of energy from the north with the Beury Building project.

To say nothing of the fact that that is the site of the old Baker Bowl, where the Phillies played for 50 years before it burned down, forcing them to move 6 blocks west and share Shibe Park with the A's.
Philly sports facilities coming full circle.
On a side note, I've always wished that someone would have built an arena there after the Baker Bowl burned down. Then the Montreal Maroons, Montreal's second hockey team, could have moved here instead of folding. They almost did move to Philly in the 1930s, but didn't have an NHL-ready arena for them.

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

A new arena would surely kick off a wave of development around North Philadelphia Station, especially in concert with the North Station District and restoration of 2700 North Broad. Additionally, this part of North Philly has the infrastructure to support large crowds going into and coming from a new arena. The North Philadelphia BSL stop has both local and express platforms, Amtrak's North Philadelphia Station could support increased SEPTA and Amtrak service, and a rebuilt and fully ADA-accessible North Broad Station serve all six Regional Rail lines that serve the north end of the system. Finally, both Broad Street and Lehigh Avenue are wide enough to support larger traffic volumes.

A Broad and Lehigh arena, in combination with transportation investment from SEPTA/Amtrak/PennDOT, private investment, and a Temple presence, could transform a criminally underutilized and underinvested neighborhood into one of the city's most dynamic.

Stadiums / arenas by themselves do not spark development. Ask the city of Chester what the Union have done for them. Almost nothing, in spite of what they said when they built that stadium. If the arena is part of a larger planned development, that is a different story (like the Washington Nationals stadium in DC). But on its own, it has not happened anywhere that I am aware of that a stadium or arena by itself has sparked significant development. It still hasn't happened in the Stadium District, for God's sake.

[mcgrath618]

I posit an honest question to you all now: we didn’t trust the Sixers’ Penn’s Landing proposal, so why should we trust them now? What makes this project better researched and planned?

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by McBane

I think you all are thinking too hard. The answer is obvious. If the City won't support the Market East plan, then the Sixers will likely conclude the City is not a genuine partner or a welcoming location. And with NJ willing to throw millions to build anything in Camden, the next logical step is Camden, right next to their practice facility.

And while Squilla and the mayor have Chinatown NIMBYs screaming in his ear, they're not the only ones they're listening to. The unions are still very powerful and you think they're just sitting back quietly? I'm sure there are other interests and power brokers (Jefferson perhaps?) who are surely pushing for this arena to happen. I know we've seen Councilmen being lazy and deferring zoning changes to the community, but this is much bigger than a simple condo tower.

I think it will happen but the City will have to squeeze more out of the Sixers to save face.

As I've said before, my main concern is that the arena will entrench existing parking lots of which Chinatown has many. I hope when negotiations get serious, something is done (I don't know what) to encourage development.

Chris Christie has been out of office for half a decade. The days of unchecked cash flow into Camden ushered in through the unholy Christie-Norcross alliance is dead. I think you're seriously misunderstanding the current political climate if you think NJ is going give significant subsidies toward a billionaire so he can build a basketball arena in Camden.

Beyond that, as I've mentioned before, they're focused on a center city arena. What about their last two proposals makes you think a proposal in Camden is coming next? If they're not gonna get their swanky downtown arena, at that point why not just build in the sports complex?

This is pretty simple. Philly is the 4th largest media market in the country, they're obviously not leaving the metro and there are few if any benefits to building somewhere else in the metro.

Your points on the power of unions and other powerful entities pushing for this arena are well stated. Despite community opposition, there are many reasons why it's still likely this arena gets built. But city politicians being afraid the sixers will move somewhere doesn't seem likely to factor into what happens. They're not going anywhere.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by allovertown

This is pretty simple. Philly is the 4th largest media market in the country, they're obviously not leaving the metro and there are few if any benefits to building somewhere else in the metro.

I don't think market size has anything to do with it. It's not as though teams haven't relocated from large markets before, to be replaced with either expansion teams or teams that relocated from somewhere else. I'm not saying that's the best thing to do, but it has happened. Even the 76ers's own history is all about relocations (Warriors and Syracuse Nationals.)

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

That's called a pipe dream

It's definitely a pipe dream, but one based in reality. The area around Broad and Lehigh has the best transportation infrastructure outside of Center City. It is perhaps the best area outside of Center City to host large crowds, but it would be a tough sell to bring people up there.

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Stadiums / arenas by themselves do not spark development. Ask the city of Chester what the Union have done for them. Almost nothing, in spite of what they said when they built that stadium. If the arena is part of a larger planned development, that is a different story (like the Washington Nationals stadium in DC). But on its own, it has not happened anywhere that I am aware of that a stadium or arena by itself has sparked significant development. It still hasn't happened in the Stadium District, for God's sake.

Yeah, I was going for the potential to combine a Broad and Lehigh stadium with other planned developments, such as the North Station District and 2700 North Broad--along with all the smaller developments the three projects would bring. These projects in concert would open up an excellent opportunity for SEPTA, Amtrak, and PennDOT to invest in the three North Philadelphia Stations (BSL, Amtrak/SEPTA's Trenton Line, and SEPTA's Chestnut Hill West Line) and North Broad Station. A stadium, office district, increased residential units, and additional SEPTA and Amtrak service would create a truly dynamic neighborhood.

I grew up in the city, but I spent a lot of time in Chester when I'd visit my grandparents. That stadium was doomed to fail from the start. While the waterfront location is nice, there is absolutely nothing going on in the surrounding neighborhood. Even if you intended to explore the neighborhood, you'd have to cross the Industrial Highway (PA 291). Plus, although the area is served by the Wilmington/Newark Line, both Chester Transportation Center and Highland Avenue are a pretty long walk away. If you're not used to blight and grit, you wouldn't feel comfortable (although they're missing out on the best pizza in Delco at Just Pizza!).

[McBane]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Beyond that, as I've mentioned before, they're focused on a center city arena. What about their last two proposals makes you think a proposal in Camden is coming next?

To answer your question, my logic is this: If the City caves in to the NIMBYs for an arena at Market East, then the Sixers would likely conclude that the City will cave in other CC locations as well. So maybe plan B is not Camden but plan B is not going to be in CC. And definitely not North Philly. If not Camden, then probably back to the Sports Complex. (Also, who said Camden isn't in the metro area?)

But also like I said, I still think there are many powerful interests working quietly behind the scenes to push this through and ultimately, it happens.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by McBane

To answer your question, my logic is this: If the City caves in to the NIMBYs for an arena at Market East, then the Sixers would likely conclude that the City will cave in other CC locations as well. So maybe plan B is not Camden but plan B is not going to be in CC. And definitely not North Philly. If not Camden, then probably back to the Sports Complex. (Also, who said Camden isn't in the metro area?)

Blitzer and Harris are also big NJ guys. They own the NJ Devils after all. I could see NJ giving massive tax incentives away to lure them over the river. The opposition to the Market East arena doesn't want people to take SEPTA anyway, so it is what it is.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Blitzer and Harris are also big NJ guys. They own the NJ Devils after all. I could see NJ giving massive tax incentives away to lure them over the river. The opposition to the Market East arena doesn't want people to take SEPTA anyway, so it is what it is.

I don't know, they are looking for the best way to maximize the value of their asset, I don't see how that can be done in Camden. There is a reason the Nets fled NJ. I'm sure it's an option but one they'd like to keep as last resort.

[PhillyPDX]

Since someone mentioned Barclays in Brooklyn, why not put the new Sixers arena over the Amtrak yard in university city? That's what Barclay's is built over. Location checks a lot of boxes otherwise.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

Since someone mentioned Barclays in Brooklyn, why not put the new Sixers arena over the Amtrak yard in university city? That's what Barclay's is built over. Location checks a lot of boxes otherwise.

What about residents of Mantua and Powelton Village? As I said, if the City caves to the Chinatown NIMBYs, then why would the City not cave to NIMBYs in other neighborhoods? That's not to say Amtrak Yards is a bad idea (on the contrary!). Just not realistic in my opinion for the reasons above.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by McBane

What about residents of Mantua and Powelton Village? As I said, if the City caves to the Chinatown NIMBYs, then why would the City not cave to NIMBYs in other neighborhoods? That's not to say Amtrak Yards is a bad idea (on the contrary!). Just not realistic in my opinion for the reasons above.

Exactly. You know, for a group like ours that follows the development around the city so well, it's surprising to me how people continually pretend what you said isn't true. Performative Activisim is the correct term for what goes on constantly everywhere.

Performative activism is activism done to increase one's social capital rather than because of one's devotion to a cause. It is often associated with surface-level activism, referred to as slacktivism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_activism

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by jaysb

I don't know, they are looking for the best way to maximize the value of their asset, I don't see how that can be done in Camden. There is a reason the Nets fled NJ. I'm sure it's an option but one they'd like to keep as last resort.

The Net's moved to Brooklyn because someone else bought the team during the 08 recession.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I posit an honest question to you all now: we didn’t trust the Sixers’ Penn’s Landing proposal, so why should we trust them now? What makes this project better researched and planned?

good point.