PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

I don't think Squilla will want to deal with the heat that comes as the person being solely responsible for the Sixers moving to Camden so I see this moving forward.

They're not moving to Camden.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by chimpskibot

I have little to no confidence this parcel will proceed with BrookLiv as the developer. Their website looks like it was coded by a highschool student. They Are still using the Google Maps Dev Environment and default html templates!!
That being said its wild no larger developer bought this prime parcel for $13M, especially Southern who are super bullish on Rittenhouse.

$13mm for that massive parcel in one of the 10 most prime locations in the region? How is that even possible?

Didn’t Southern Land by their lot for like double that like 10 years ago?

I would have guessed that lot at CMX5 would have gone for triple the $13mm. I mean a lot of local yokels could have leveraged up and bought that lot - Post Brothers are spending like a $1b to redevelop swaths of no-mans-land in NL and this lot goes for 13mm like 90 feet from Rittenhouse… weird.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Londonee

$13mm for that massive parcel in one of the 10 most prime locations in the region? How is that even possible?

Didn’t Southern Land by their lot for like double that like 10 years ago?

I would have guessed that lot at CMX5 would have gone for triple the $13mm. I mean a lot of local yokels could have leveraged up and bought that lot - Post Brothers are spending like a $1b to redevelop swaths of no-mans-land in NL and this lot goes for 13mm like 90 feet from Rittenhouse… weird.

It's gotta be due to the weirdness of having three separate parcels.

The article says that the Brooklyn company had someone here in Philly who alerted them to the opportunity. Perhaps this Philly insider had an inside track to secure the center lot as it seems that was the first lot purchased.

Once these guys get ahold of that center lot it really drives down the value of the other two lots because a skyscraper is impossible with just one. So they're only bidding against developers looking to develop significantly smaller projects on a single lot for the other two lots.

The owners of these properties really should have banded together and sold them as a package. I imagine each individual owner would have gotten MUCH more this way.

Anyway that's part of the reason I'll be surprised if this small Brooklyn developer moves forward with a skyscraper here. Why go through all the work of building a skyscraper? Now that they're all packaged together they can likely just turn around and sell them for a huge profit.

It's good that they're all together now because that means a skyscraper is now an inevitability here. The bad part is we may have to wait awhile while this developer sells the land to whoever will ultimately be the developer here.

Can anyone remind me. Were they able to salvage the historic facades here? Should we expect the new project to have a base comprised of those facades or something entirely new?

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by cardeza

when did the Sixers say that was on the table? I think they specifically said they are not looking to leave the city.

They aren't looking to leave. but that's weasel-speak for "..but unless we get this deal, you leave us with no other choice." It's a strongarm tactic, tried and true among other pro sports teams that want shiny new stadiums/arenas.

[PHL10]

Everybody green.

[japmes]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

You want it to happen? If you live in Squilla’s district, write an email or a letter in support of it. Hell, even if you don’t, write a letter or an email. He’s like, the only council member that actually responds.

Agreed. Sent an email of support for the arena yesterday.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

They aren't looking to leave. but that's weasel-speak for "..but unless we get this deal, you leave us with no other choice." It's a strongarm tactic, tried and true among other pro sports teams that want shiny new stadiums/arenas.

Not quite the same as in other cities considering they’re currently seeking zero public assistance.

[nemesisinphilly]

OK, let's speculate then. We know that the Sixers are not staying at WFC past 2031. We know that they will build their own arena somewhere. So if Market East gets denied what other options do they have?

Waterfront - got rejected

Navy Yard was pitched as a possibility but not sure where it would go?

SY/30th St/West Philly - Again not sure where it would go

Somewhere in North Philly?

Camden.

I guess I'm curious to hear opinions on where they can put an arena if not at Market East?

[bdurk]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

OK, let's speculate then. We know that the Sixers are not staying at WFC past 2031. We know that they will build their own arena somewhere. So if Market East gets denied what other options do they have?

Waterfront - got rejected

Navy Yard was pitched as a possibility but not sure where it would go?

SY/30th St/West Philly - Again not sure where it would go

Somewhere in North Philly?

Camden.

I guess I'm curious to hear opinions on where they can put an arena if not at Market East?

I think it would be amazing if they built the stadium over the track near 30th St. After all, there was a proposal for a stadium there awhile ago (see here) I doubt the Sixers would spend the probably exorbitant amount of money to cover the tracks and build there but that would be my ideal location.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

OK, let's speculate then. We know that the Sixers are not staying at WFC past 2031. We know that they will build their own arena somewhere. So if Market East gets denied what other options do they have?

Waterfront - got rejected

Navy Yard was pitched as a possibility but not sure where it would go?

SY/30th St/West Philly - Again not sure where it would go

Somewhere in North Philly?

Camden.

I guess I'm curious to hear opinions on where they can put an arena if not at Market East?

Assuming they want to be in or adjacent to Center City, in terms of process of elimination, it makes the most sense they would be somewhere along the East-West Access (i.e. MFL) in Center City as opposed to the N-S access (Broad Street Line) to optimize overlaps with Regional Rail/maximize transit access.

Once you realize that. Market West is eliminated (I believe) because I think most of the developable parcels already have proposals or are accounted for. That leaves Market East or somewhere further west i.e. West Philly. I still think Center City is preferable to West Philly because you can disembark from your suburban train and walk directly to the stadium without a transfer.

[SEFTA]

Downtown Brooklyn is booming because it is downtown Brooklyn.
The development did not move there because of Barclays but instead absorbed it because that's where Brooklyn is now. BOOMING
It's not where it was when Barclays was built.
Barclays is kind of a dead zone during the day
outside of people passing by.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

OK, let's speculate then. We know that the Sixers are not staying at WFC past 2031. We know that they will build their own arena somewhere. So if Market East gets denied what other options do they have?

Waterfront - got rejected

Navy Yard was pitched as a possibility but not sure where it would go?

SY/30th St/West Philly - Again not sure where it would go

Somewhere in North Philly?

Camden.

I guess I'm curious to hear opinions on where they can put an arena if not at Market East?

The area around the Met, around Broad & Girard, is starting to pop. Although the Met and the arena might compete for concerts.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Not quite the same as in other cities considering they’re currently seeking zero public assistance.

It's essentially the same. They still need something from the government - not dollars directly but permission to build there.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Downtown Brooklyn is booming because it is downtown Brooklyn.
The development did not move there because of Barclays but instead absorbed it because that's where Brooklyn is now. BOOMING
It's not where it was when Barclays was built.
Barclays is kind of a dead zone during the day
outside of people passing by.

Oh right. Do you live there? Were you there on the ground prior to Barclays?

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

They aren't looking to leave. but that's weasel-speak for "..but unless we get this deal, you leave us with no other choice." It's a strongarm tactic, tried and true among other pro sports teams that want shiny new stadiums/arenas.

it works better when you are trying to hold government hostage to get $$. In this case, Im not sure how effective it will be. I mean the owners of wells fargo just put $200 into renovations and sixers are saying they "cant'" stay there in a second class facility. This may be one of the only times in sports team history where a team is desperate to leave a renovated arena.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Downtown Brooklyn is booming because it is downtown Brooklyn.
The development did not move there because of Barclays but instead absorbed it because that's where Brooklyn is now. BOOMING
It's not where it was when Barclays was built.
Barclays is kind of a dead zone during the day
outside of people passing by.

I heard Brooklyn was dead before Barclays- are you sure the stadium didnt save the borough??

[3rd&Brown]

What's funny about all the capitulation and hand wringing about this is that we haven't heard a peep from Wash West? Why aren't they pissed?

Sure as hell if the arena was proposed for the south side of Market (what, 75 feet from where it's being proposed today) I'd bet you a million bucks Chinatown would still want a say.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I heard Brooklyn was dead before Barclays- are you sure the stadium didnt save the borough??

I don't believe so. It helped during those lean years. It's dated now, as they all get dated after just 10 years.
Saving the BOROUGH is a stretch.
I would say, Barclays is a good example to why NOT put it on Market.
After all, it's not exactly in Downtown Brooklyn but the outskirts because;
you try not to throw prime real estate to government $ sucking billionaires.
It's surrounded by Brooklyn versions of the "Fashion District". No residential towers. No office towers. Old Navy, Best Buy, Marshalls...

MARKET STREET is destined for something better. Patience.
Perhaps if they placed the entire complex above street level retail to avoid a dead zone.
AND infrastructure in place for possible towers above.

Market East is pioneer and the future
IMHO!

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I heard Brooklyn was dead before Barclays- are you sure the stadium didnt save the borough??

Brooklyn was not dead before barclays. I lived there in the mid 1990s and it was great.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

I don't believe so. It helped during those lean years. It's dated now, as they all get dated after just 10 years.
Saving the BOROUGH is a stretch.
I would say, Barclays is a good example to why NOT put it on Market.
After all, it's not exactly in Downtown Brooklyn but the outskirts because;
you try not to throw prime real estate to government $ sucking billionaires.
It's surrounded by Brooklyn versions of the "Fashion District". No residential towers. No office towers. Old Navy, Best Buy, Marshalls...

MARKET STREET is destined for something better. Patience.
Perhaps if they placed the entire complex above street level retail to avoid a dead zone.
AND infrastructure in place for possible towers above.

Market East is pioneer and the future
IMHO!

I hope you know he was kidding about saving the borough.

Also, the plan for the arena is in fact to ring it with retail - per everything that's been released about it.

These guys are going to drop $2B on East Market street - there's simply no way the city caters to a small neighborhood association.

The difference before was that the city was building/subsidizing the Phillies arena - this is a private investment. These guys are powerful and mean business - I don't see any scenario that this doesn't happen.