[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

This is amazing news! Great use for the former Museum space. Wayne Long said that 900 students and faculty is expected. This will be a good boost for the business uptown and I hope will spur more new development.

A couple of things to consider when evaluating the impact of this...

-Hundreds of more students during the lunch hour rush.
-Vast majority of students will be international so good chance we will see a few new international-type establishments open.
-New housing will be needed to accommodate this massive influx of newcomers and they'll likely want to live within walking distance.
-Tuition is $15K a year, these will be wealthy families.
-This project will complement the new loyalist plaza in an effort to breathe new life into this area of uptown.

Furthermore, with the new K-8 school, there is going to be a serious demand to accommodate families moving into the south-central peninsula. Keep an eye out for 3-bedroom apartment units, townhouses, and SFH refurbishments ramping up.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

A couple of things to consider when evaluating the impact of this...

-Hundreds of more students during the lunch hour rush.
-Vast majority of students will be international so good chance we will see a few new international-type establishments open.
-New housing will be needed to accommodate this massive influx of newcomers and they'll likely want to live within walking distance.
-Tuition is $15K a year, these will be wealthy families.
-This project will complement the new loyalist plaza in an effort to breathe new life into this area of uptown.

Furthermore, with the new K-8 school, there is going to be a serious demand to accommodate families moving into the south-central peninsula. Keep an eye out for 3-bedroom apartment units, townhouses, and SFH refurbishments ramping up.

Good points ! Exciting times

[adamuptownsj]

Not to pour cold water on this (it's definitely cool) but the museum space is almost windowless and extremely leaky. Other than the section looking out over the roof to the north, perpendicular to St. Patrick's St, there don't seem to be any windows into the museum. AFAIK most of the museum is 'ringed' by the Library and office space, so there won't be much natural light.

I'm putting this one in the 'big if it actually happens' bucket, pending construction. It doesn't seem as ridiculous as the Landmark, of course, but there's a ton of unanswered questions.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Not to pour cold water on this (it's definitely cool) but the museum space is almost windowless and extremely leaky. Other than the section looking out over the roof to the north, perpendicular to St. Patrick's St, there don't seem to be any windows into the museum. AFAIK most of the museum is 'ringed' by the Library and office space, so there won't be much natural light.

I'm putting this one in the 'big if it actually happens' bucket, pending construction. It doesn't seem as ridiculous as the Landmark, of course, but there's a ton of unanswered questions.

We are assuming it’s old museum space - maybe it’s the near empty office building on corner of Smythe and Union (now that most are virtual workers). I honestly don’t know

[cdnguys]

Can you fit a school for 900 in here ?

[IMG] online upload photo[/IMG]

[DyAm00394]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Not to pour cold water on this (it's definitely cool) but the museum space is almost windowless and extremely leaky. Other than the section looking out over the roof to the north, perpendicular to St. Patrick's St, there don't seem to be any windows into the museum. AFAIK most of the museum is 'ringed' by the Library and office space, so there won't be much natural light.

I'm putting this one in the 'big if it actually happens' bucket, pending construction. It doesn't seem as ridiculous as the Landmark, of course, but there's a ton of unanswered questions.

Well keep in mind that they are a global network of not-for-profit French private schools run by the government of France. They have over 500 locations in over 140 countries. So I think they have the funds to fit up and fix the issues the space has. I’m very certain it will happen. They chose Saint John out of all the other possible places in Atlantic Canada. I’m sure if the museum space didn’t fit or work in the long run they wouldn’t have chose that space/location. They would have done all the research beforehand.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Can you fit a school for 900 in here ?

[IMG] online upload photo[/IMG]

On second thought, the third floor is fully fenestrated facing north and east, and is ~25,000 sf. Other than that, the north side of the second floor (between Genesys and St Patrick St) could be opened up. That's it.

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Well keep in mind that they are a global network of not-for-profit French private schools run by the government of France. They have over 500 locations in over 140 countries. So I think they have the funds to fit up and fix the issues the space has. I’m very certain it will happen. They chose Saint John out of all the other possible places in Atlantic Canada. I’m sure if the museum space didn’t fit or work in the long run they wouldn’t have chose that space/location. They would have done all the research beforehand.

Exactly. This is not some fly by night organization. They have 9 other Cdn locations and this was jointly announced by The Province, The City and The Customer.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by UptownJeff

Exactly. This is not some fly by night organization. They have 9 other Cdn locations and this was jointly announced by The Province, The City and The Customer.

Oh, I'm not saying it is! It's just the location that's strange to me.

Calgary's operates out of a more traditional building: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http...CA4QjhxqFwoTCLj66Y-fz_wCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

As do Ottawa https://www.google.com/search?q=lycee+in...Y&bih=1045&biw=2133#imgrc=IAqjEWugbGiF0M and Houston https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http...CA0QjRxqFwoTCJCTlK-fz_wCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

[DyAm00394]

A new interview with the CEO of Envision Saint John, Paulette Hicks, talking about the new international French private school.

https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-2...cSU_vo10hitwkcVwJ4uKCkLh8LUk6OwJ1fW7Pmuc

Apparently, the Don Bosco group was touring the city during the memorial cup last year. They were looking at possible sites and fell in love with Market Square and envisioned the school there. They love the idea of an urban uptown location. And it could be possible that the school expands out into the public spaces of Market Square, but she believes the plan is to stay inside the Museum space. They are working with the Hardman Group on the design plans. Also she confirmed no housing will be on site, so families will be moving here with their children and some will be staying here with host families. The plan is to have 50% international, 50% Atlantic Canada students and she mentioned that not all the Lycées have an "international" designation, so we are very fortunate to have it.

As well she mentioned this would spur more development since this will be a major anchor tenant for Market Square and will bring students to the uptown core, supporting the businesses in the area.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Oh, I'm not saying it is! It's just the location that's strange to me.

Calgary's operates out of a more traditional building: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http...CA4QjhxqFwoTCLj66Y-fz_wCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

As do Ottawa https://www.google.com/search?q=lycee+in...Y&bih=1045&biw=2133#imgrc=IAqjEWugbGiF0M and Houston https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http...CA0QjRxqFwoTCJCTlK-fz_wCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI

I agree. This is NOT the optimum use of an anchor space along the waterfront. This is trying to be pitched as a "wonderful" addition, but to be fair this isn't exactly a "win" for Saint John or Market Square. Nor is this a great business model for a city that is already struggling with housing. So we are going to bring in 900 international students seeking shelter and rental accommodations to a city where there is already a massive shortage of affordable housing - creating a similar mess to what they have in Sydney right now with UCB.

Unless there are some significant changes locally and provincially to speed up growth - as in getting shovels in ground ASAP to build more housing units. This is going to take things from bad to worse OR, be shuttered after a year once students stop coming because they cannot find any housing. In the interim, it is just another driver of higher rents due to supply and demand.

[DyAm00394]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

I agree. This is NOT the optimum use of an anchor space along the waterfront. This is trying to be pitched as a "wonderful" addition, but to be fair this isn't exactly a "win" for Saint John or Market Square. Nor is this a great business model for a city that is already struggling with housing. So we are going to bring in 900 international students seeking shelter and rental accommodations to a city where there is already a massive shortage of affordable housing - creating a similar mess to what they have in Sydney right now with UCB.

Unless there are some significant changes locally and provincially to speed up growth - as in getting shovels in ground ASAP to build more housing units. This is going to take things from bad to worse OR, be shuttered after a year once students stop coming because they cannot find any housing. In the interim, it is just another driver of higher rents due to supply and demand.

Well keep in mind 900 students isn't expected until 2029. They are only expecting 290 for opening year, (2024). So it's not this big massive influx of population all at once. Plus it was mentioned some will be staying here with host families. My hope is that this will help encourage more housing development to be built by province and private sector sooner. And hopefully will entice developers of yet to be started projects, to finally begin them. I wouldn't consider this school a bad idea or anything, it will help with population and economy in the long run. They just need to make sure that housing supply for them can keep up.

[ColSJ]

I don’t think your assessment Pugsley on housing is wrong, however I think there is still a window of opportunity to fix it by what you mentioned, building as soon and as much as possible. By my counts at full buildout there are over 1100 units proposed on the south central peninsula alone. Will they all get built? Most likely not but others will come along and help fill in gaps.

As far as the space itself I can’t think of anything much better. Hundreds more people will flock to Market Square and our waterfront area 5 days a week. Let’s be honest… did anyone actually envision this space ever being leased again? It would’ve just become another talking point people would use to argue we shouldn’t be building any more commercial space.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

As far as the space itself I can’t think of anything much better. Hundreds more people will flock to Market Square and our waterfront area 5 days a week. Let’s be honest… did anyone actually envision this space ever being leased again? It would’ve just become another talking point people would use to argue we shouldn’t be building any more commercial space.

OK, I agree...there is time to build hopefully before the full-capacity of students. However, I still don't "love" the location. Call me an old sod who is too nostalgic...but I remember when Market Square opened in the 80s and this wasn't what it was designed to be. It was designed to be a gathering place for entertainment and shopping. I'm just disappointed (as I've shared in previous posts) that more isn't being done to bring it back to what it was built to be. That's all. Adding this school just further detracts it from that original purpose. Even if they used it for something like this: https://thefactorylondon.ca/the-clubhouse/

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

OK, I agree...there is time to build hopefully before the full-capacity of students. However, I still don't "love" the location. Call me an old sod who is too nostalgic...but I remember when Market Square opened in the 80s and this wasn't what it was designed to be. It was designed to be a gathering place for entertainment and shopping. I'm just disappointed (as I've shared in previous posts) that more isn't being done to bring it back to what it was built to be. That's all. Adding this school just further detracts it from that original purpose. Even if they used it for something like this: https://thefactorylondon.ca/the-clubhouse/

I think it’s a great fit for Market Square - it will bring vibrancy to a space not conducive to much anything else. The Market Square of 1984 will never be back. It will also add vibrancy to the library with so many students and store fronts with a history of poor occupancy can be used as an extended part of the campus. This is an amazing announcement and I still struggle why people complain about everything - if you read the comments on Facebook they range from “Market Square shouldn’t rent property to a private business” to “Higgs is trying to privatize French immersion”. This will be a major employer uptown with a huge economic spinoff. We need to stop this self-flagellation and celebrate our achievements. I follow threads for other cities in region and we have the unique distinction of complaining about great things that happen to city. Best recent example, people protesting against the construction of the IOL headquarters on an empty lot. We seriously need to change the way we think when it comes to this city IMO. With the NBCC expansion, new health sciences centre at UNBSJ, Dal Med, CAM Institute of Design and now this international school, this puts us up a couple rungs on the ladder and puts on on the map as far as education goes. In Europe most of the cities have schools/international schools right in the centre and it adds an additional layer of vibrancy to the area - especially when they wear their school uniforms. End of rant.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

This is an amazing announcement and I still struggle why people complain about everything - if you read the comments on Facebook they range from “Market Square shouldn’t rent property to a private business” to “Higgs is trying to privatize French immersion”. This will be a major employer uptown with a huge economic spinoff. We need to stop this self-flagellation and celebrate our achievements. I follow threads for other cities in region and we have the unique distinction of complaining about great things that happen to city. Best recent example, people protesting against the construction of the IOL headquarters on an empty lot. We seriously need to change the way we think when it comes to this city IMO.

I agree 100%

Important to remember those Facebook commenters more than likely don’t actually live uptown. People who live uptown know what they sign up for when they move to one of the fastest growing neighbourhoods in the province. That’s why whenever a proposal comes through during public hearings there is never any opposition. Us uptowners love seeing our neighbourhood grow!

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

I agree 100%

Important to remember those Facebook commenters more than likely don’t actually live uptown. People who live uptown know what they sign up for when they move to one of the fastest growing neighbourhoods in the province. That’s why whenever a proposal comes through during public hearings there is never any opposition. Us uptowners love seeing our neighbourhood grow!

Couldn't agree more. As an Uptowner and Toronto transplant (15 years) I've never understood the negativity regarding development. IOL HQ is a prime example - it is a showcase and contrary to what some have said, the sky didn't fall when it was built. The new school in Market Sq is a dream come true IMO - the Saint John of 15 years ago is NOT the Saint John of today - thnakfully!

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by UptownJeff

Couldn't agree more. As an Uptowner and Toronto transplant (15 years) I've never understood the negativity regarding development. IOL HQ is a prime example - it is a showcase and contrary to what some have said, the sky didn't fall when it was built. The new school in Market Sq is a dream come true IMO - the Saint John of 15 years ago is NOT the Saint John of today - thnakfully!

Guys, this is NOT development. This is a low job creation, low-salary, private education business occupying what should be space that is better served for other things. I know what these foreign-owned private colleges are not great as I lived near one in Toronto. It had ZERO local economic impact. It bears repeating...ZERO IMPACT. Here is why:

1) The majority of the tuition fees go through the facility and out to the HQ abroad (this one is based in France I believe), at the expense of a few locally hired teachers who receive modest salaries. So this isn't going to be a Cooke, Irving, or even UNB-level driver of local economic growth.

2) The students who pay rent and attend don't throw money around like they are on some kind of vacation. Many of them are here on very fixed incomes from abroad and money is often very tight for them. So don't expect any miracles pay days in terms of cash-flow into local businesses. It just isn't the reality, especially if housing takes up most of their budget.

3) Many of these students will commute long distances to the school in order to find affordable rents while they are here locally. I remember a story on the news in Toronto about the school near me and how students couldn't afford to live nearby after paying their tuition fees - with many relying on food banks and commuting 1-2 hours on transit each day to classes due to affordability.

4) These students are not long-term residents and not likely to stay or settle here as the programs are very short (some are only 6 months) - meaning they don't invest long-term in the local community or contribute to long-term economic growth. Further, many don't qualify for part-time visas so they don't even get the opportunity to make money or work in the local community while here.

So let's cool it on the "this is great, everyone else is so negative". The reality is that this isn't a great addition and I can assure you that anyone who has lived near one of these schools would echo my points above from having the same experience.

Is it an addition to the community? Sure. But this isn't something that is "wonderful" by any means nor a beacon of hope for the waterfront. Maybe, just maybe...if we focused on bringing more jobs Uptown from the likes of the Cooke's Irving, IBM, and UNB (among other professional positions) then we wouldn't be struggling to fill places like Market Square and Brunswick Square with placeholders like this. They'd fill themselves up on their own due to growing prosperity from real full-time workers and local residents spending real money each and every day.

[Mud]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Guys, this is NOT development. This is a low job creation, low-salary, private education business occupying what should be space that is better served for other things. I know what these foreign-owned private colleges are not great as I lived near one in Toronto. It had ZERO local economic impact. It bears repeating...ZERO IMPACT. Here is why:

1) The majority of the tuition fees go through the facility and out to the HQ abroad (this one is based in France I believe), at the expense of a few locally hired teachers who receive modest salaries. So this isn't going to be a Cooke, Irving, or even UNB-level driver of local economic growth.

2) The students who pay rent and attend don't throw money around like they are on some kind of vacation. Many of them are here on very fixed incomes from abroad and money is often very tight for them. So don't expect any miracles pay days in terms of cash-flow into local businesses. It just isn't the reality, especially if housing takes up most of their budget.

3) Many of these students will commute long distances to the school in order to find affordable rents while they are here locally. I remember a story on the news in Toronto about the school near me and how students couldn't afford to live nearby after paying their tuition fees - with many relying on food banks and commuting 1-2 hours on transit each day to classes due to affordability.

4) These students are not long-term residents and not likely to stay or settle here as the programs are very short (some are only 6 months) - meaning they don't invest long-term in the local community or contribute to long-term economic growth. Further, many don't qualify for part-time visas so they don't even get the opportunity to make money or work in the local community while here.

So let's cool it on the "this is great, everyone else is so negative". The reality is that this isn't a great addition and I can assure you that anyone who has lived near one of these schools would echo my points above from having the same experience.

Is it an addition to the community? Sure. But this isn't something that is "wonderful" by any means nor a beacon of hope for the waterfront. Maybe, just maybe...if we focused on bringing more jobs Uptown from the likes of the Cooke's Irving, IBM, and UNB (among other professional positions) then we wouldn't be struggling to fill places like Market Square and Brunswick Square with placeholders like this. They'd fill themselves up on their own due to growing prosperity from real full-time workers and local residents spending real money each and every day.

I think the point of whether this is the best possible tenant for the space is debatable but ultimately moot because at least from an outsider's perspective there was nothing in the trajectory of Brunswick Square that signaled something better was just around the corner.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Guys, this is NOT development. This is a low job creation, low-salary, private education business occupying what should be space that is better served for other things. I know what these foreign-owned private colleges are not great as I lived near one in Toronto. It had ZERO local economic impact. It bears repeating...ZERO IMPACT. Here is why:

1) The majority of the tuition fees go through the facility and out to the HQ abroad (this one is based in France I believe), at the expense of a few locally hired teachers who receive modest salaries. So this isn't going to be a Cooke, Irving, or even UNB-level driver of local economic growth.

2) The students who pay rent and attend don't throw money around like they are on some kind of vacation. Many of them are here on very fixed incomes from abroad and money is often very tight for them. So don't expect any miracles pay days in terms of cash-flow into local businesses. It just isn't the reality, especially if housing takes up most of their budget.

3) Many of these students will commute long distances to the school in order to find affordable rents while they are here locally. I remember a story on the news in Toronto about the school near me and how students couldn't afford to live nearby after paying their tuition fees - with many relying on food banks and commuting 1-2 hours on transit each day to classes due to affordability.

4) These students are not long-term residents and not likely to stay or settle here as the programs are very short (some are only 6 months) - meaning they don't invest long-term in the local community or contribute to long-term economic growth. Further, many don't qualify for part-time visas so they don't even get the opportunity to make money or work in the local community while here.

So let's cool it on the "this is great, everyone else is so negative". The reality is that this isn't a great addition and I can assure you that anyone who has lived near one of these schools would echo my points above from having the same experience.

Is it an addition to the community? Sure. But this isn't something that is "wonderful" by any means nor a beacon of hope for the waterfront. Maybe, just maybe...if we focused on bringing more jobs Uptown from the likes of the Cooke's Irving, IBM, and UNB (among other professional positions) then we wouldn't be struggling to fill places like Market Square and Brunswick Square with placeholders like this. They'd fill themselves up on their own due to growing prosperity from real full-time workers and local residents spending real money each and every day.

- these are not low paying jobs. These are highly skilled and well paying jobs.
- this is a major driver of growth. Many of these teachers are bringing their families. Estimate is 300 French folks.
- this entity is a non-profit
- children will not be renting apartments, they will be billeted with families of local students.
- as with UNBSJ, some international students will decide to stay in the community.

Your negativity is a complete mystery, unfounded and confusing. This is an amazing announcement with CLEAR ECONOMIC BENEFITS. You’d rather have an empty Market Square and no school? Like what are you on about? This is the exact type of mindset that plagues this city. You think people in Moncton would be having this conversation?