Broadway Subway - Millennium Line Extension to Arbutus | U/C

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by NewfBC

Top 5 transit system in the world? Ours? LOL

Don't travel much?

Ron.

i have traveled a lot, actually. i am comparing it to its comparable. from on-time, to comfort, to frequency, to reliability. could it be more encompassing? sure it could. but it will be within the next 10yrs. we are not a large city, nor are we an old city.

can you name another system as reliable, frequent, encompassing, and YOUNG as ours? i can't think of one off the top of my head. there's more to a transit system than something that goes everywhere. sure NYC isnt bad, but i would be hard pressed to call it *better* than ours simply because of the 1/2 dozen times i have been there, i have had issues with the reliability of it. not to mention the heat, waiting in one of the stations, in mid-july, for 12mins because the train got stuck. that isnt not nearly as a rare occurrence there as it is here. not to forget how loud it is (can cause permanent hearing damage over time), or how filthy it is (read what was happening to peoples face masks, imagine breathing that in every day).

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i have traveled a lot, actually. i am comparing it to its comparable. from on-time, to comfort, to frequency, to reliability. could it be more encompassing? sure it could. but it will be within the next 10yrs. we are not a large city, nor are we an old city.

can you name another system as reliable, frequent, encompassing, and YOUNG as ours? i can't think of one off the top of my head. there's more to a transit system than something that goes everywhere. sure NYC isnt bad, but i would be hard pressed to call it *better* than ours simply because of the 1/2 dozen times i have been there, i have had issues with the reliability of it. not to mention the heat, waiting in one of the stations, in mid-july, for 12mins because the train got stuck. that isnt not nearly as a rare occurrence there as it is here. not to forget how loud it is (can cause permanent hearing damage over time), or how filthy it is (read what was happening to peoples face masks, imagine breathing that in every day).

For what it's worth, our transit system dates back to 1890 (early rail rapid transit no less); It's really more the case that we dropped the ball from the 30s until the 80s rather than having a more recent starting line.

For three examples that actually had recent starts, the Hong Kong MTR and Seoul Metropolitan Subway both date to the late 70s and the Singapore MRT started in 1987 (after ours). All three are superior in every metric you mentioned.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

For what it's worth, our transit system dates back to 1890 (early rail rapid transit no less); It's really more the case that we dropped the ball from the 30s until the 80s rather than having a more recent starting line.

For three examples that actually had recent starts, the Hong Kong MTR and Seoul Metropolitan Subway both date to the late 70s and the Singapore MRT started in 1987 (after ours). All three are superior in every metric you mentioned.

All three of those cities are much larger, two are effectively city states and the other is the country's capital city.

Metro Vancouver in comparison only broke the 1M mark in the 1971 census. The 2M mark in the 2006 census. Is the third largest city in Canada and is neither the capital city of the country nor province.

For us to be legitimately comparing ourselves to the likes of Vienna, Hong Kong, Seoul and Singapore when it comes to our transit system is simply an accolade to how well our system compares on a world scale.

Daegu, South Korea is probably the best comparison. Third largest city in South Korea with a metro population of 2.4M and 81.2km of rapid transit, we have 2.7M and 79.6km with 20km more on the way.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mcj

All three of those cities are much larger, two are effectively city states and the other is the country's capital city.

Metro Vancouver in comparison only broke the 1M mark in the 1971 census. The 2M mark in the 2006 census.

For us to be legitimately comparing ourselves to the likes of Vienna, Hong Kong, Seoul and Singapore when it comes to our transit system is simply an accolade to how well our system compares on a world scale.

By that argument, it should have been harder to build out a more expansive system in the same amount of time, but they all did it.

To be honest, I do think we have a transit system that is competitive worldwide, but there are plenty of transit systems worldwide that leave us in the dust.

Daegu, South Korea is probably the best comparison. Third largest city in South Korea with a metro population of 2.4M and 81.2km of rapid transit, we have 2.7M and 79.6km with 20km more on the way.

Daegu also started a decade after we did. Also contrary to probably most public opinion, Canada has a GDP per capita almost twice South Korea's, and in the 70s it was almost ten times higher, but yet South Korea was able to expand their rapid transit systems far faster than we did.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

By that argument, it should have been harder to build out a more expansive system in the same amount of time, but they all did it.

Why would having a larger and more concentrated tax base make things harder? Especially when combined with less stringent property laws (and lower property ownership rates in general), a lower cost labour pool, and (in the case of Singapore) government at all levels that has a single city to focus on appeasing.

Originally Posted by chowhou

Daegu also started a decade after we did. Also contrary to probably most public opinion, Canada has a GDP per capita almost twice South Korea's, and in the 70s it was almost ten times higher, but yet South Korea was able to expand their rapid transit systems far faster than we did.

Fair point in terms of GDP per capita figures, really we can only compare to other Canadian and American cities, but Daegu is really the closest comparison in South Korea. When we do though we're still comparing ourselves with peer cities with multiples of our population (Toronto, San Francisco, Chicago, etc.) and not the 2M to 3M sized metro areas like St Louis, Salt Lake City and Charlotte.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by mcj

Vienna, while certainly an example of an excellent transit system, also has been at approximately Vancouver's size (i.e. 2M - 3M people in the metro area) for over 100 years and like most European cities had a well established rail network built over the 19th and early 20th centuries. It's also the country's capital and was the capital for what was once one of the most powerful empires in the world during the exact period when rail development was in full swing worldwide. It's an understatement to say that they had a massive head start.

Originally Posted by mcj

All three of those cities are much larger, two are effectively city states and the other is the country's capital city.

The original post I referred to said Vancouver's transit system was top-five in the world and didn't qualify that claim at all. So age, population, GDP, regional and/or national importance, etc. are irrelevant to evaluating that original claim.

Subsequently the claim has been changed by VancouverOfTheFuture and now the claim is that Vancouver's transit system is the best YOUNG system in the world. Still no qualifications regarding population, GDP, regional and/or national importance, etc.

If you are saying we should only compare Vancouver's transit system to cities which are the third-largest city in their respective countries and are not capitals, which have a similar population to Vancouver's, and whose systems were built in the past 40 years, then suddenly the competition is very thin and making any sort of comparison to other global cities is futile. Is claiming that "Vancouver's transit system is the best in the world out of Daegu, South Korea and Vancouver, Canada" really saying anything worth saying?

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by mcj

really we can only compare to other Canadian and American cities... When we do though we're still comparing ourselves with peer cities with multiples of our population (Toronto, San Francisco, Chicago, etc.) and not the 2M to 3M sized metro areas like St Louis, Salt Lake City and Charlotte.

You are talking yourself in circles. What was the point of your posts if you just reiterated what I already said which you objected to earlier?

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I would say our system may be the best for a city of Vancouver's size in NA. Many of our peer cities in NA don't even have mass rapid transit, and is there any city in NA that has a better bus network than ours?

But I have to limit the scope to NA

[mcj]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

The original post I referred to said Vancouver's transit system was top-five in the world and didn't qualify that claim at all. So age, population, GDP, regional and/or national importance, etc. are irrelevant to evaluating that original claim.

Subsequently the claim has been changed by VancouverOfTheFuture and now the claim is that Vancouver's transit system is the best YOUNG system in the world. Still no qualifications regarding population, GDP, regional and/or national importance, etc.

If you are saying we should only compare Vancouver's transit system to cities which are the third-largest city in their respective countries and are not capitals, which have a similar population to Vancouver's, and whose systems were built in the past 40 years, then suddenly the competition is very thin and making any sort of comparison to other global cities is futile. Is claiming that "Vancouver's transit system is the best in the world out of Daegu, South Korea and Vancouver, Canada" really saying anything worth saying?

The point is we do well on a level playing field, but point taken that finding one is difficult outside of North America. And agreed that claiming we are top-five or the best young system is ridiculous.

[jollyburger]

Broadway Cambie cam is back

https://trafficcams.vancouver.ca/cambieBroadway.htm

Nothing new with the bus stop

[Unregistered User]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

i dont know if i would say "infrequently..."

- 1985
- 2000
- 2009
- 2016
- 2026
- 2028

we also had stations added between 1985-2000 as well. it doesn't look that infrequent to me. we have built what is in the top 5 of transit systems in the world in about 35yrs.

it may not be as fast as some of you want, but i would not call it "infrequent."

I actually graphed something like this out a while ago for visualization's sake:



This is assuming: Capstan Station opening in 2023, Broadway Subway in 2025, Langley extension in 2028, and UBCx in 2030.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by Unregistered User

I actually graphed something like this out a while ago for visualization's sake:



This is assuming: Capstan Station opening in 2023, Broadway Subway in 2025, Langley extension in 2028, and UBCx in 2030.

Haha neat. I thought it looked slightly parabolic so I plotted some points. According to math:

In 2085 (100 year anniversary of Skytrain opening) there will be 187 stations.

...in 2123 there will be 298 stations.

...and Metro Vancouver will open it's 1000th Skytrain station in the year 2278.

Math doesn't lie

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

At least the pace of expansion is improving. The Canada Line, Evergreen, and Broadway lines have been telegraphed for so long they seem painfully slow. Once UBC is built, it will feel fast if we keep getting a line or expansion every 4-5 years.

If Translink was smart they should try to have new expansions ready to start when the one under construction finishes. It isn't like they wouldn't have enough for the next decades to build.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

i didnt think i needed to point out the common sense fact that it should be with regards to comparable cities. sigh. i thought common sense here would prevail. i guess i was wrong again. my bad all, i didn't realize everyone would be comparing us to cities of 10m people with a large tax base, and more cohesive levels of government. i still didn't see any of you name 5 better young cities and young systems, though.

but the interesting part is, to tear apart my point, you had to compare our system to to those systems. interesting.

sometime i forget internet people love to nit pick arguments down past the intent to try and win an argument. *yawn* ill concede then. yup our transit system 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. time to tear it all down!

[mcminsen]

How long has this red crane been up at the Broadway-City Hall Station?

I just noticed it last week. Haven't seen any pics of it yet.





Jan.16 '23, my pics

[madog222]

^Don't worry your not going crazy, it just went up. NicholasHui said it went up 13th, his post got buried in a few pages of off topic bickering.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If Translink was smart they should try to have new expansions ready to start when the one under construction finishes. It isn't like they wouldn't have enough for the next decades to build.

They never seem to do serious pre-planning until funding is secured.

From my recollection they did study Broadway a lot though, then redid it all when funding came in. Lots of holes drilled over the years that's for sure.

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by Unregistered User

I actually graphed something like this out a while ago for visualization's sake:



This is assuming: Capstan Station opening in 2023, Broadway Subway in 2025, Langley extension in 2028, and UBCx in 2030.

Let's compare with Seattle, a city of similar size also with geography challenges. 5 lines under construction, more lines funded/partially funded and in planning. Also I would stick to funded extensions which takes UBC off the table, completely unknown if/when that will happen. They got funding, they're building faster.

Also Langley opening for 2028 is optimistic given delays on Arbutus and similar light rail projects. This puts our grand system expansion back to its one line per decade M.O.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by madog222

Haha neat. I thought it looked slightly parabolic so I plotted some points. According to math:

In 2085 (100 year anniversary of Skytrain opening) there will be 187 stations.

...in 2123 there will be 298 stations.

...and Metro Vancouver will open it's 1000th Skytrain station in the year 2278.

Math doesn't lie

Parabolic? Don't you mean linear?

I graphed the same data using a scatter plot and a trendline. The linear equation works out to:

y = 4/3x +15

So for 2123 I got 198 stations
And we will have 1,000 stations by 2750

But if you actually meant parabolic we are probably getting close to the apex of the curve, and the rate of opening new stations is about to fall. While unfortunate, this makes sense as cities with large metros mostly focus on adding capacity to existing lines, introducing express service, or building other forms of transit such as high-speed commuter rail.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

sometime i forget internet people love to nit pick arguments down past the intent to try and win an argument. *yawn* ill concede then. yup our transit system 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. time to tear it all down!

Say what you mean and mean what you say. If you didn't mean that Vancouver has a top-five transit system in the entire world than say "Vancouver has a top-five system in the world for cities with less than 3 million people where the system was built in the last 50 years." I can guarantee that if we try to read between the lines for some of your other posts you would be pissed off.

I compared Vancouver to Vienna. Here are some city stats:
- Metro population: Vancouver 2.64, Vienna 2.89 million
- GDP per capita: Vancouver $46k USD, Vienna $58k USD
- Regional and historical importance: Vancouver none, Vienna a lot

Yes, Vienna is not a perfect comparison for Vancouver. But it's certainly a better comparison than NYC or London or Tokyo or Paris or Moscow. Cities with incredible transit systems that are even less comparable than Austria.

Oh, and for the record I interpreted what you posted the way you wanted me to and agreed with you:

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I would say our system may be the best for a city of Vancouver's size in NA.

[jollyburger]

Concrete is being poured I assume with the tent over that section