Wellington Street Pedestrian Mall

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

It was deleted because of unnecessary profanity, for which I have zero tolerance. Is the reason that I provided not visible to you? I thought that it should be.

No, nothing was visible to me.

I disagree it was unnecessary. It was in quotation marks, indicating the slogan than the individuals in question, who stand in the middle of the “new and improved” Wellington Street every day in the summer, put on their t-shirts, in “music” they blast from a portable boom box, as well as on signs and flags. They are now an integral feature of the zombie Wellington Street and therefore germane to the discussion.

I would note that the Ottawa Citizen uses the same phrase in the same quotes to describe the same phenomenon.

https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/c...adas-descent-but-the-charter-may-save-us

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Does the public not have access to Parliament Hill today or in a scenario where Wellington is pedestrianized? People can walk from LRT, or from anywhere else they'd like. Is there a reason that people must be able to drive to Parliament Hill (despite not being able to park on Wellington anyway)?

The public has less access because people using transit are deposited much further.

Originally Posted by JHikka

At least in this scenario they can be relegated to Albert/Slater or, you know, nearby parking lots where they belong. Maybe tourists walking around a few blocks up to the Hill will make Downtown feel busier compared to dumping them right at the gates.

Yeah, it is horrible to give tourists access to the thing they want to see. And it is much better they are blocking the narrow downtown sidewalks rather than the double wide sidewalks on Wellington that are used pretty much only by tourists.

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'd recommend reading up on how induced demand works as it relates to traffic, particularly when additional lanes are added onto existing highways, or in this case opening new streets in an attempt to alleviate other streets.
.

Nobody is adding anything. The traffic coming off the bridge is being pushed onto downtown streets. Where do you think the previous traffic is going?

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is surely a joke. It's not a good look to equate actual authoritarian regimes to Ottawa closing a road to cars.

If Ottawa is going to act like an actual totalitarian regime they should be called out for it. Even in Moscow the street in front of the Duma is open to cars and transit, not to mention Washington, London, Paris, Rome, etc.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by acottawa

No, nothing was visible to me.

I disagree it was unnecessary. It was in quotation marks, indicating the slogan than the individuals in question, who stand in the middle of the “new and improved” Wellington Street every day in the summer, put on their t-shirts, in “music” they blast from a portable boom box, as well as on signs and flags. They are now an integral feature of the zombie Wellington Street and therefore germane to the discussion.

I would note that the Ottawa Citizen uses the same phrase in the same quotes to describe the same phenomenon.

https://ottawacitizen.com/pmn/news-pmn/c...adas-descent-but-the-charter-may-save-us

Ya, it's certainly less than ideal if the author of a deleted post can't see the provided reason for the deletion... a shortcoming of this dated forum platform, for sure.

While the Citizen article does quote that exact phrase, there's no good reason to not use the F*** substitute here, as other posters try to do, in order to keep the language clean. It becomes difficult to uphold the forum rules if some profane words are allowed and others aren't.

As a refresher for everybody, the Forum Rules are posted at the bottom of the forum home page:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/index.php

Nobody will be suspended for the occasional use of profanity, but posts might be edited or deleted.

[lrt's friend]

I am sorry but I feel that the current closure is a monument to the glory of the trucker convoy and it represents ongoing limitations placed on the citizens of Ottawa, just as the convoy had done.

I don't see this in any way as an improvement to the city and I have seen no convincing argument that this will significantly change Wellington for the better unless it is our desire to increase security around Parliament Hill, something I believe is unnecessary and undesirable in a democracy.

I read 'cars are bad' over and over again. I have read this same message here for years. This message has been presented for virtually every downtown street at various times. Close down Rideau, close down the Byward market, close down Elgin, close down parts of Albert and Slater once the buses were gone, close down Bank (all the way to Billings Bridge) etc. There is no coherence in what we want to do and what we argue for, that actually makes downtown both accessible and an attractive place to be. There is no real plan. I have not seen one that binds downtown together for pedestrians and cyclists while still allowing traffic to also move, like in any other city. Everything is disjointed and piecemeal.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

These are not the arguments at all.

I don't favour making downtown an exclusive neighbourhood for those living in expensive nearby condos, which has been the trend. We are doing a good job as we eliminated most entertainment options, most retail on Sparks Street, killed traditional aspects of the Byward Market and as office employment implodes.

Can you explain how you square your the impression you seem to have of downtown as an elitist bastion of "expensive nearby condos" when in reality the city's own data show that Somerset ward is the poorest ward in the city with a serious crisis of unhoused individuals? In your opinion, is this a rich ward or a poor ward?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The public has less access because people using transit are deposited much further.

A block away is not 'much further'.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Yeah, it is horrible to give tourists access to the thing they want to see.

Tourists still have access, construction notwithstanding.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Nobody is adding anything. The traffic coming off the bridge is being pushed onto downtown streets. Where do you think the previous traffic is going?

I see you haven't researched induced demand yet. Less roads and lanes is overall better for downtowns and their users - that's why major cities around the world are and have been moving in that direction.

Originally Posted by acottawa

If Ottawa is going to act like an actual totalitarian regime they should be called out for it.

Sorry but you're being ridiculous.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Can you explain how you square your the impression you seem to have of downtown as an elitist bastion of "expensive nearby condos" when in reality the city's own data show that Somerset ward is the poorest ward in the city with a serious crisis of unhoused individuals? In your opinion, is this a rich ward or a poor ward?

Like many city centres there are pockets of poverty and social housing in an increasingly gentrified area.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Sorry but you're being ridiculous.

It is hard to have a discussion with someone who resorts to name calling without presenting any evidence or information on their own. You’re hiding behind your moderator status.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

A block away is not 'much further'.


Tourists still have access, construction notwithstanding.

I see you haven't researched induced demand yet. Less roads and lanes is overall better for downtowns and their users - that's why major cities around the world are and have been moving in that direction.

Reduced tourist access, reduced transit access, for no benefit to anyone but the police and politicians who now have exclusive use of the road. And the people who stand in the left turn lane with F*** T****** signs and boom boxes.

The capacity going into and out of central Ottawa is the same, they have not reduced Queensway lanes or bridge lanes. They have simply relocated traffic that used to use Wellington onto downtown streets. If you have data that shows a drop in Queensway or bridge use after the Wellington closure then feel free to provide a link.

[acottawa]

I can’t emphasize enough for the out of town visitors on this thread that this is not a pedestrian street. It is a street converted from mixed use to exclusively for the use of politicians and police.

[postingaboutottawa]

But I can go there right now and walk on it to get to the hill right? So its definitionally not exclusive no matter how dire the future looks in terms of funding for making it look nicer.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is hard to have a discussion with someone who resorts to name calling without presenting any evidence or information on their own. You’re hiding behind your moderator status.

You're trivializing actual authoritarian regimes by thinking you're suffering the same fate because a road has been closed to cars. Come on.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JHikka

A block away is not 'much further'.


Tourists still have access, construction notwithstanding.

I see you haven't researched induced demand yet. Less roads and lanes is overall better for downtowns and their users - that's why major cities around the world are and have been moving in that direction.


Sorry but you're being ridiculous.

You better be careful about bringing 'induced demand' into the argument.

Induced demand is most often brought up when extra traffic lanes are added which results in increased numbers of car trips.

But it also applies if you add cycling lanes to increase bicycle trips and adding new transit lines to increase trips by transit.

The reverse of reducing car lanes may have the opposite effect of reducing car trips and therefore fewer visitors to downtown, if there is no corresponding changes that induce increased traffic by other means.

We are already facing a situation where there has been a substantial reduction in the number of trips to downtown because of the pandemic and WFH. Why would we want to reduce this further by closing traffic lanes, at the present time?

This is an honourable goal in the long-term, but our focus should be 'increasing' traffic (visitors) to downtown given the current situation.

Closed streets give the impression that our downtown is 'closed for business' or that there is some sort of ongoing threat to public security. Isn't the latter exactly why Wellington Street was not re-opened quickly after the convoy protest ended? In a way, it is like falling off a bicycle. If you don't get back on quickly, fears mount. As I have said, this is not about beautifying our city. They will not be in a hurry to 'improve' Wellington Street, just like it took years to remove similar ugly barriers around the American Embassy.

I guarantee that the discussions between various levels of government concerning Wellington Street are focused on security, not on making downtown Ottawa a more welcoming place. We should all worry if that is the case.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

You're trivializing actual authoritarian regimes by thinking you're suffering the same fate because a road has been closed to cars. Come on.

Show me an example of a democratic country that has made a major road in the capital city exclusively for the use of politicians and police.

This is exactly the kind of thing totalitarian regimes do. I am sorry if it makes you uncomfortable but you should be more uncomfortable with the behaviour of the government.

If Ford closed College to transit and vehicles and made it exclusively for the use of politicians and police Toronto would be up in arms. But Trudeau does it amd Toronto goes into full apologist mode.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Show me an example of a democratic country that has made a major road in the capital city exclusively for the use of politicians and police.

This is exactly the kind of thing totalitarian regimes do. I am sorry if it makes you uncomfortable but you should be more uncomfortable with the behaviour of the government.

Wellington isn't closed "exclusively" for politicians and police. It's still mind boggling that you choose to ignore pedestrians simply because they aren't drivers, and it doesn't line up with your "authoritarian" narrative.

"But only a handful of people actually walk on Wellington instead of the sidewalk!!"-- so what? You're still cherry-picking your arguments.

If Ford closed College to transit and vehicles and made it exclusively for the use of politicians and police Toronto would be up in arms. But Trudeau does it amd Toronto goes into full apologist mode.

Again, you're cherry-picking the argument that transit vehicles are banned from Wellington. Fundamentally, they're not. The Gatineau tramway is still on the table, just like the College streetcar would still be in Toronto. The bus routes on Wellington had been rerouted long before Wellington was closed.

Also, Trudeau? Really? Ottawa's own City Council voted to keep Wellington closed.

Is closing the SJAM on Sundays for cyclists authoritarian? Was closing Rideau to cars for several years authoritarian? Is Toronto closing Lakeshore, or even Yonge Street for active use authoritarian? Is the King Street pilot project authoritarian? Is there some kind of time limit that makes a road closure an "authoritarian" act, rather than something that can benefit society in the longer term?

[MichelKazan]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is closed at Bank, North end of Bank is clogged with traffic.

This is leading to further problems with drivers coming from the parkway or from Hull and needing to go east are now taking Bank and disregarding the No Left Turns at Queen, Slater and Laurier and backing up through traffic who can't go around them.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As far as closing Wellington to truck traffic, that is part of a bigger debate of where trucks are going to go.

There's very little truck traffic on Wellington. The truck traffic problem is on Rideau between Waller and King Edward and then down King Edward.

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure what time you are referring to, but most of the time the north end of Bank is basically car-free. I can't remember the last time I had to wait for the light to cross Bank at Sparks.

It's been at least a couple times now that I've seen traffic backed up almost to Wellington and Lyon at rush hour because of cars illegally turning from Bank onto Queen, Slater or Laurier. The separate right turn signal at Wellington and Lyon doesn't help either if you're coming from the Parkway or from Hull.

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is often a minor to middling bottleneck (especially in the morning rush) coming off the Portage from Wellington approaching Lyon, Bank, etc.

The separate signal to turn RIGHT from Wellington onto Lyon doesn't help that. Useless since there's no southbound traffic at Lyon and Wellington except for that parking lot which is empty most of the time.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Show me an example of a democratic country that has made a major road in the capital city exclusively for the use of politicians and police.

It's not exclusive to politicians and police. You're ignoring pedestrians.

Originally Posted by acottawa

This is exactly the kind of thing totalitarian regimes do. I am sorry if it makes you uncomfortable but you should be more uncomfortable with the behaviour of the government.

You're fearmongering over a street being closed to cars. Ridiculous.

Originally Posted by acottawa

If Ford closed College to transit and vehicles and made it exclusively for the use of politicians and police Toronto would be up in arms. But Trudeau does it amd Toronto goes into full apologist mode.

You're not making any sense. Sorry.

[MichelKazan]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is great to have grocery stores and drug stores downtown, but what are the draws for those beyond centretown?

Wait, what? How many grocery and drug stores are there in the zone defined by Bank, Somerset West, Bronson and Wellington, compared to the number of residents (and projected residents) there?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MichelKazan

This is leading to further problems with drivers coming from the parkway or from Hull and needing to go east are now taking Bank and disregarding the No Left Turns at Queen, Slater and Laurier and backing up through traffic who can't go around them.

It's been at least a couple times now that I've seen traffic backed up almost to Wellington and Lyon at rush hour because of cars illegally turning from Bank onto Queen, Slater or Laurier. The separate right turn signal at Wellington and Lyon doesn't help either if you're coming from the Parkway or from Hull.



The separate signal to turn RIGHT from Wellington onto Lyon doesn't help that. Useless since there's no southbound traffic at Lyon and Wellington except for that parking lot which is empty most of the time.

It certainly has created new traffic problems. Pretending otherwise doesn't help. I don't think allowing left turns helps either. Those cars really need to continue to another bridge and come down King Edward or Sussex depending on their destination. Without Wellington does the Portage bridge have much value at all?

[MichelKazan]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It certainly has created new traffic problems. Pretending otherwise doesn't help. I don't think allowing left turns helps either. Those cars really need to continue to another bridge and come down King Edward or Sussex depending on their destination. Without Wellington does the Portage bridge have much value at all?

If drivers took Lyon from Wellington, they would be able to turn left at Queen, Slater or Laurier. But a lot of drivers then continue to Bank and make those illegal left turns anyways from Bank. I mean, what's the point of turn prohibitions if drivers do them anyways with no consequences (ie, no enforcement)? And I can't imagine the long wait at the unnecessary separate signal to turn from Wellington onto Lyon helps.