Wellington Street Pedestrian Mall

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The idea that the Confederation Boulevard can only exist if you're allowed to drive along it is silly.

Frankly you'd get much better views of all the landmarks along it by cycling, or walking.



We're 27 pages into this thread. "People aren't walking on the road, therefore we should keep the road" isn't a valid argument.

These are not the arguments at all.

I argue that this is just an excuse to expand the parliament security parameter, and the focus is not to make downtown better.

There is simply no justification to semi-convert this street into a pedestrian mall, when there is already plenty of room for pedestrians, the very next street is a failing pedestrian street, and there is little opportunity to make this a successful pedestrian street. If we want to add a cycle track, this can be done but this does not require a full street closure.

The fact that at least one lane must remain open for access to the Wellington Street buildings, and the potential for a busy cycle track does not add much to the pedestrian environment, which already offers a very wide sidewalk.

As I have said before, barricading our best architecture and requiring paid parking to get a good view of Parliament is not an improvement, when alternate accesses are limited to a minority who have access to good transit or are within reasonable bicycle range.

I don't favour making downtown an exclusive neighbourhood for those living in expensive nearby condos, which has been the trend. We are doing a good job as we eliminated most entertainment options, most retail on Sparks Street, killed traditional aspects of the Byward Market and as office employment implodes.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

No, the debate is whether it should stay on zombie apocalypse mode indefinitely in the absence of any other ideas or funding for those ideas.

Ok, well count me as a no to indefinite zombie apocalypse mode.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't favour making downtown an exclusive neighbourhood for those living in expensive nearby condos, which has been the trend. We are doing a good job as we eliminated most entertainment options, most retail on Sparks Street, killed traditional aspects of the Byward Market and as office employment implodes.

Downtown is becoming an exclusive neighbourhood? Haven't heard that one before, nor have I noticed it on my daily walks down Bank St. Really not sure how eliminating entertainment, retail and the market helps those living in expensive nearby condos. Perhaps you could explain that point.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

Downtown is becoming an exclusive neighbourhood? Haven't heard that one before, nor have I noticed it on my daily walks down Bank St. Really not sure how eliminating entertainment, retail and the market helps those living in expensive nearby condos. Perhaps you could explain that point.

It doesn't, but that is the trend.

Perhaps it is a stretch to say exclusive, however, we are gradually localizing the services and amenities offered downtown, when we should be broadening downtown's appeal .

This is the result of decades long trends which have seen so much exodus to the suburbs. Much of this is inevitable, but it also relates to failed policies to make downtown inviting and accessible. The current exodus of office workers, will accelerate the trend.

It is great to have grocery stores and drug stores downtown, but what are the draws for those beyond centretown?

[acottawa]

Both the city and the federal government have prioritized “not downtown” for attractions. Ottawa is quite unusual in this regard compared to other cities.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is simply no justification to semi-convert this street into a pedestrian mall, when there is already plenty of room for pedestrians, the very next street is a failing pedestrian street, and there is little opportunity to make this a successful pedestrian street. If we want to add a cycle track, this can be done but this does not require a full street closure.

Frankly I think I could make a better argument for pedestrianization based solely on the amount of noise pollution a 4-lane arterial road creates in front of our parliament buildings than you can for re-opening the road to arterial traffic.

The fact that at least one lane must remain open for access to the Wellington Street buildings, and the potential for a busy cycle track does not add much to the pedestrian environment, which already offers a very wide sidewalk.

Again that's an incredibly narrow view of our options here.
Leaving one lane open is a significant improvement to the pedestrian environment when compared to 4+ lanes of traffic.

As I have said before, barricading our best architecture and requiring paid parking to get a good view of Parliament is not an improvement, when alternate accesses are limited to a minority who have access to good transit or are within reasonable bicycle range.

That's tough for you, but it's not the responsibility of downtown residents to either fix transit infrastructure across the city or accept massive amounts of automotive traffic just so someone can get a brief glance of the parliament buildings out of their car window.

I don't favour making downtown an exclusive neighbourhood for those living in expensive nearby condos, which has been the trend. We are doing a good job as we eliminated most entertainment options, most retail on Sparks Street, killed traditional aspects of the Byward Market and as office employment implodes.

It's not exclusive. You can visit any time. If you have a problem with the transit, reopening Wellington certainly isn't going to do jack about it.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Both the city and the federal government have prioritized “not downtown” for attractions. Ottawa is quite unusual in this regard compared to other cities.

Fully agree. Was very puzzled when moving here to see how many government amenities aren't downtown. Want to get a passport? Go to a strip mall by Hog's Back. Fight a parking ticket - Nepean. Need a police check? That's at Pinecrest. City archives? Woodroffe. Put the new science museum on that vacant piece of grass by the War Museum? Nope, let's double down on that industrial park off of St. Laurent.

But we really encourage you to live without a car.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Frankly I think I could make a better argument for pedestrianization based solely on the amount of noise pollution a 4-lane arterial road creates in front of our parliament buildings than you can for re-opening the road to arterial traffic.


Again that's an incredibly narrow view of our options here.
Leaving one lane open is a significant improvement to the pedestrian environment when compared to 4+ lanes of traffic.



That's tough for you, but it's not the responsibility of downtown residents to either fix transit infrastructure across the city or accept massive amounts of automotive traffic just so someone can get a brief glance of the parliament buildings out of their car window.



It's not exclusive. You can visit any time. If you have a problem with the transit, reopening Wellington certainly isn't going to do jack about it.

Don't you understand what you are saying?

The Wellington debate is just one part of it. Do we want people to come downtown or not? Most tourists come to Ottawa by car. We don't want them?

Unfortunately, cars are part of a busy and successful downtown. We hope that transit can become more attractive but it has not worked out so well. Transit has been in decline for the last 10+ years. So, we want to discourage cars but the alternative has also been deteriorating.

Where downtowns are successful, it will be busy. If people don't want it busy, then downtown businesses will fail. Why did they choose to live there if they don't want to put up with traffic? This is a mystery to me.

If we want to close all our major streets downtown, lets talk about that once we have subways running north, south, east and west into downtown. The current stubway is not enough.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is the result of decades long trends which have seen so much exodus to the suburbs. Much of this is inevitable, but it also relates to failed policies to make downtown inviting and accessible. The current exodus of office workers, will accelerate the trend.

It is great to have grocery stores and drug stores downtown, but what are the draws for those beyond centretown?

There was definitely a back to the city centre trend over the past couple of decades, but as acottawa pointed out, governments of all levels haven't done anything to help.

For me, the question is more whether we want to create a downtown that is full of drive-in, drive out amenities, or do we want to make a place that people actually want to hang out? The second option is how you get a vibrant downtown.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

Fully agree. Was very puzzled when moving here to see how many government amenities aren't downtown. Want to get a passport? Go to a strip mall by Hog's Back. Fight a parking ticket - Nepean. Need a police check? That's at Pinecrest. City archives? Woodroffe. Put the new science museum on that vacant piece of grass by the War Museum? Nope, let's double down on that industrial park off of St. Laurent.

But we really encourage you to live without a car.

The various levels of government are always looking at the bottom line, so its cheaper to offer services in the suburbs than downtown.

You used to get your passport at 240 Sparks but federal policies at multiple levels step in. They want more security at downtown offices, so they want to keep out the public. We restrict parking downtown tightly, so people find it difficult to apply for a passport.

The City Archives used to be at the old City Hall on Green Island, but the feds bought the building and wanted the public out. You know, security. We put the Archives way out on Woodroffe, then they cut connecting bus service. For many, it is very difficult to get there without a car. And then the archives is more about security than serving the public anyways.

The Science museum is in an industrial area, because it was a cheap option. The opportunity to relocate did not happen, because no Conservative government in living memory has wanted to leave a major legacy in Ottawa. That is also why 24 Sussex is falling apart and the Portrait Gallery was cancelled. Ottawa is a dirty word particularly in Conservative strongholds therefore investment in the capital does not sell. All the recent downtown amenities are Liberal creations, the War museum, the National Gallery, the Museum of History and the NAC. At least we got that.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

There was definitely a back to the city centre trend over the past couple of decades, but as acottawa pointed out, governments of all levels haven't done anything to help.

For me, the question is more whether we want to create a downtown that is full of drive-in, drive out amenities, or do we want to make a place that people actually want to hang out? The second option is how you get a vibrant downtown.

I understand and for the most part I agree, but we need to find the right balance between offering adequate accessibility and locating those people places that we all hope for. As I said in another post, do we really want tourists who come to this city by car or not?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I understand and for the most part I agree, but we need to find the right balance between offering adequate accessibility and locating those people places that we all hope for. As I said in another post, do we really want tourists who come to this city by car or not?

Agree that we need balance. The question is where that balance lies. But I find it really hard to believe that we are losing many tourists because it is too difficult to drive here.

I'm not sure that Wellington is the right spot to make a public place, but I'm not convinced that it isn't either. Aesthetically, the buildings on Wellington are the best ones that we have, it could connect with Sparks to make a true pedestrian zone, and a full public square at Metcalfe would be substantial. It would be helpful to facilitate pedestrian traffic between Lebreton Flats and the Market/Rideau Centre. Transit access would be key. I'd love to see the STO tram duck underground for a couple of blocks there, it sounds like there are some feasibility issues with that.

[zzptichka]

Tram remains the best option for Wellington no matter how some posters here trying to make it a false dichotomy between pedestrian-only and car-only options.

[acottawa]

It isn’t pedestrian only, it is parliamentary short bus and police only. Nobody walks on the road.

[OCCheetos]

If the concern is that leaving the pavement on Wellington devoid of cards will turn it into "zombie apocalypse mode", then maybe that's an opportunity to drive political pressure to overhaul it properly sooner than later.

Can you guess what reopening a 4+ lane road will do instead?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Bring transit back.

Is there something that transit on Wellington accomplishes that the LRT doesn't? Worst case put Gatineau buses on Slater/Albert/wherever.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Bring the tour busses back.

Nobody wants this. It's a nuisance to locals. Tourists can walk a block or two to reach Parliament.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Get some of the traffic out of downtown.

Induced demand. Creating more lanes does not 'get traffic out of downtown'.

Originally Posted by acottawa

What horrible things. It is so much better to have it look like North Korea.

No hyperbole here at all.

[acottawa]

Why was my post (the one Jhikka quoted) deleted?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Is there something that transit on Wellington accomplishes that the LRT doesn't? Worst case put Gatineau buses on Slater/Albert/wherever.

Nobody wants this. It's a nuisance to locals. Tourists can walk a block or two to reach Parliament.


Induced demand. Creating more lanes does not 'get traffic out of downtown'.


No hyperbole here at all.

Transit would give the public access to parliament hill (how terrible). The “Parliament” LRT stop at Queen and O’Conner isn’t particularly close.

How are tour buses parked a few blocks away not also a nuisance to locals?

The traffic that was on Wellington has now been rerouted through downtown. That isn’t induced demand.

A 5 lane road open only to politicians and police is exactly the kind of thing North Korea does.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Transit would give the public access to parliament hill (how terrible). The “Parliament” LRT stop at Queen and O’Conner isn’t particularly close.

Does the public not have access to Parliament Hill today or in a scenario where Wellington is pedestrianized? People can walk from LRT, or from anywhere else they'd like. Is there a reason that people must be able to drive to Parliament Hill (despite not being able to park on Wellington anyway)?

Originally Posted by acottawa

How are tour buses parked a few blocks away not also a nuisance to locals?

Tour buses would park directly in front of Parliament and were generally an obstacle for locals, particularly pedestrians, to navigate. Driving amongst them on Wellington was also a hassle and they would create more traffic in general.

At least in this scenario they can be relegated to Albert/Slater or, you know, nearby parking lots where they belong. Maybe tourists walking around a few blocks up to the Hill will make Downtown feel busier compared to dumping them right at the gates.

Originally Posted by acottawa

The traffic that was on Wellington has now been rerouted through downtown. That isn’t induced demand.

I'd recommend reading up on how induced demand works as it relates to traffic, particularly when additional lanes are added onto existing highways, or in this case opening new streets in an attempt to alleviate other streets.

Originally Posted by acottawa

A 5 lane road open only to politicians and police is exactly the kind of thing North Korea does.

This is surely a joke. It's not a good look to equate actual authoritarian regimes to Ottawa closing a road to cars.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Why was my post (the one Jhikka quoted) deleted?

It was deleted because of unnecessary profanity, for which I have zero tolerance. Is the reason that I provided not visible to you? I thought that it should be.