Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

So now you're objecting to a proposal to deal with some of the people who have already been taken into hospital in crisis, that might offer them a chance to move directly to detox and into treatment? I guess you think it's better to just park them in the street?

Take it to Royal Columbia’s then. No need to set it all up when the old St. Paul’s is coming down soon anyway. What a waste of resources to set it up when it will have to be redone shortly. Why should that area of the West End and Downtown South have to bare all the burden of the crazies.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Take it to Royal Columbia’s then. No need to set it all up when the old St. Paul’s is coming down soon anyway. What a waste of resources to set it up when it will have to be redone shortly. Why should that area of the West End and Downtown South have to bare all the burden of the crazies.

What 'it'? Is your comprehension lacking, like your empathy? This is a new treatment model, to try to move people who end up in emergency in distress into detox or treatment (if they're willing to go), rather than sticking them back on the street or making them wait.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

What 'it'? Is your comprehension lacking, like your empathy? This is a new treatment model, to try to move people who end up in emergency in distress into detox or treatment (if they're willing to go), rather than sticking them back on the street or making them wait.

There needs to be more follow-ups when people are detoxed or get free shoot-ups at government-run centres. Often, they are directly discharged onto the streets and this can cause a lot more problems in the neighbourhoods. Authorities should at least clean the streets around those centres and disallow people to loiter around. Enabling the entire neighbourhood to become filthy and driving away businesses and residents can attract lots crime and other disorderliness. DTES is just the beacon in the entire country (if not the entire world) showcasing how Vancouver has failed miserably when it comes to implementing "empathetic solutions" but instead bringing in worse outcomes instead. In fact, more people are dead as a result, despite billions of dollars trying to prop it up.

As per our conversation before regarding that shoot-up centre at Seymour, apparently that CRU that My Sister's Closet used to occupy is still for sale and it has been months since the store was put up for sale. Apparently no one wants it, and is that a surprise? Also, two CRUs next to the Gathering Place are boarded up and now the building looks like it is straight out of DTES. These used to house Realty offices. Bringing drug-related facilities without a good comprehensive and strict plan really does ruin a neighbourhood. Hence I'm not surprised that whatnext is upset about it.

[Vin]

DTES attracts criminals:

Police shoot man in Gastown after reports he had a weapon (PHOTOS)
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/police-shoot-man-gastown-weapon-reports

Someone must have reported him.....or did he just rob someone in the area?

[GenWhy?]

The Gathering Place has "drug-related" facilities?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

DTES attracts criminals:

I guess having the Transit Police shoot someone reported to have a weapon is progress in your mind?

Back in the Good Old Days police didn't get involved in Gastown. Where Westbanks's new Blood Alley housing has just been developed were three saloons with a rough reputation. They backed onto a privately owned alley, and the first time the Blood Alley name was used for it was in 1964 when a reporter on The Province reported the third murder in two years in the alley.

But things are much worse now, eh?

[jollyburger]

Innocent victim.

Vancouver police say he allegedly assaulted several strangers before brandishing the weapon. He allegedly slapped a woman, assaulted a cyclist, and then tried to attack someone walking with a group outside Nester’s Market. Finally, the man allegedly tried to start a fight near the Metropole Pub, and revealed the weapon before being confronted by police.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why yes, I’m sure they’ll all neatly and quietly file in and out of the facility.

Not at all like the folks using the Yaletown OPS that sprawl out on the sidewalk, get naked near the kid’s playground in Emery Barnes Park….or the denizens of the nearby Murray Hotel with their dealing in whatever at all hours etc etc…..

I live walking distance to St. Paul's and I can tell you there are already people in crisis in the area. So although more services may draw more people to the area, I think it's pure speculation on your part that things will become worse than they already are.

From the article:

St. Paul’s, run by Providence Health, responds to a high volume of patients in mental health crises or experiencing drug poisonings in Vancouver due to its proximity to the Downtown Eastside.

It has the largest inter-department division of addiction medicine of any hospital in Canada and has become a hub for new models in caring for marginalized patients.

In 2016 St. Paul’s opened the Rapid Access Addiction Clinic that provides low-barrier outpatient services for people using substances. The hospital is also home to the Transitional Care Centre for unhoused patients moving back to community care and the Hub, which diverts patients in need of mental health and substance use care away from the emergency room.

So St. Paul's is already helping people in crisis. This program will simply integrate more services to offer more comprehensive supports to people who need them.

If it is difficult to get people into detox and treatment programs, why wouldn't we remove as many barriers to entry into those programs as possible?

As for why the old St. Paul's, people need help now and Royal Columbian isn't anywhere close to the DTES. I certainly don't want to wait until 2030 for people to receive the help they need.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I guess having the Transit Police shoot someone reported to have a weapon is progress in your mind?

Back in the Good Old Days police didn't get involved in Gastown. Where Westbanks's new Blood Alley housing has just been developed were three saloons with a rough reputation. They backed onto a privately owned alley, and the first time the Blood Alley name was used for it was in 1964 when a reporter on The Province reported the third murder in two years in the alley.

But things are much worse now, eh?

Yes, before he shoots you dead. At least he can't do that now being in jail, so count your blessings and pray that he won't be released prematurely.

Also, we live in the present, and it is getting from really bad to much worse.

Finally, stop making a martyr out of an evil man:

Vancouver police say he allegedly assaulted several strangers before brandishing the weapon. He allegedly slapped a woman, assaulted a cyclist, and then tried to attack someone walking with a group outside Nester’s Market. Finally, the man allegedly tried to start a fight near the Metropole Pub, and revealed the weapon before being confronted by police.

You're just a classic misleader, like always.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

Yes, before he shoots you dead. At least he can't do that now being in jail, so count your blessings and pray that he won't be released prematurely.

Also, we live in the present, and it is getting from really bad to much worse.

Finally, stop making a martyr out of an evil man:

You're just a classic misleader, like always.

You know he could shoot me? So he had a gun? "Neither police force would say what type of weapon the man was allegedly wielding."

And you know he's evil, rather than psychotic, or schizophrenic? Or are they 'evil' too in your simplistic world?

Just who is the misleader here.

[Vin]

I like this: hope to see results on the streets.

Eby unveils public safety plan focused on repeat offenders, mental health teams

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/highl...fenders-more-mental-health-teams-6131763

The plan recognizes that there is “zero tolerance” for violence in B.C. and concentrates on helping people overcome the process of being in and out of jail, he said.

“These teams are made up of police, dedicated prosecutors, probation officers,” he said. “Their mission is to prevent violent crime before it happens, and when it does happen to make sure that violent offenders wait for trial in custody and not in our community.”

“We’ve all seen the impacts of criminal behaviour in the downtown,” he said. “That’s why I’m pleased to see the province’s co-ordinated approach of both enforcement and strengthened services, which will help break the cycle of repeat offending, help people to receive the supports they need, and help people feel safe and secure in our community.”

At the very least Eby is not denying that we have a problem.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

You know he could shoot me? So he had a gun? "Neither police force would say what type of weapon the man was allegedly wielding."

And you know he's evil, rather than psychotic, or schizophrenic? Or are they 'evil' too in your simplistic world?

Just who is the misleader here.

You make it sound like he was shot dead by the police when he was only halted from further violence with a bean bag gun. Your fake sympathy is revealing here. Why don't you think of the sake of those victims he assaulted for a change? That hardworking taxi driver could've been hurt if police did not stop him.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

You make it sound like he was shot dead by the police when he was only halted from further violence with a bean bag gun. Your fake sympathy is revealing here. Why don't you think of the sake of those victims he assaulted for a change? That hardworking taxi driver could've been hurt if police did not stop him.

You're getting confused between all the people the police have shot this year (five dead so far). The latest shooting wasn't with a beanbag gun, or at least the Sun reported 'The suspect was taken to hospital with gunshot wounds'. I didn't suggest that he was killed, just that he was shot by the Transit Police. There was no taxi driver involved - that was a different event.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Vin

You make it sound like he was shot dead by the police when he was only halted from further violence with a bean bag gun.

For the record, while bean bag guns are non-lethal weapons, that doesn't mean they are never lethal. Any weapon can be lethal if used improperly, and bean bag rounds have killed people before when they strike the chest or head from a close range.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

For the record, while bean bag guns are non-lethal weapons, that doesn't mean they are never lethal. Any weapon can be lethal if used improperly, and bean bag rounds have killed people before when they strike the chest or head from a close range.

Bean bags and tasers can both be dangerous. The question is, what is the lesser evil in the situation at hand?

Everybody likes to play Monday morning quarterback on the actions of police. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Bean bags and tasers can both be dangerous. The question is, what is the lesser evil in the situation at hand?

Everybody likes to play Monday morning quarterback on the actions of police. Hindsight is 20/20.

Just as there seem to be more incidents of random violence from apparent pschosis, there also seem to be more fatal or injuring responses from the police. (I don't know if it's really the case, or just more coverage on online media, and other sites like this). It's heartening to know that sometimes that doesn't have to be the case, although it's concerning to read comments that suggest that the police should have used a more violent approach to end the situation faster.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Just as there seem to be more incidents of random violence from apparent pschosis, there also seem to be more fatal or injuring responses from the police. (I don't know if it's really the case, or just more coverage on online media, and other sites like this). It's heartening to know that sometimes that doesn't have to be the case, although it's concerning to read comments that suggest that the police should have used a more violent approach to end the situation faster.

Notable that the police don't have clowns from VANDU with cell phones in their faces when they are trying to talk somebody down on a Skytrain track.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Notable that the police don't have clowns from VANDU with cell phones in their faces when they are trying to talk somebody down on a Skytrain track.

No, but given the number of IIO investigations into police involved deaths and injuries in the DTES, and a legacy of examples of unacceptable police behaviour it's hardly surprising that locals with phones get them out as soon as any sort of incident occurs. The police body cameras are a great idea, (and if they don't have them, dashboard cameras as well).

[Vin]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

For the record, while bean bag guns are non-lethal weapons, that doesn't mean they are never lethal. Any weapon can be lethal if used improperly, and bean bag rounds have killed people before when they strike the chest or head from a close range.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Bean bags and tasers can both be dangerous. The question is, what is the lesser evil in the situation at hand?
Everybody likes to play Monday morning quarterback on the actions of police. Hindsight is 20/20.

If there are no better alternatives, we are still sticking with such weapons, unless you brainy folks can come up with something better. Better a criminal getting hurt than the victim, but it looks like you folks think otherwise.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

You're getting confused between all the people the police have shot this year (five dead so far). The latest shooting wasn't with a beanbag gun, or at least the Sun reported 'The suspect was taken to hospital with gunshot wounds'. I didn't suggest that he was killed, just that he was shot by the Transit Police. There was no taxi driver involved - that was a different event.

You're the one getting confused:

VPD responds to video of arrest showing use of bean bag rounds, police dog
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/local-news/vpd-video-takedown-bean-bag-gun-canine-vandu-6156917

Perhaps yo help you comprehend the situation better, Vancouver Sun should have said "The suspect was taken to hospital with bean-gunshot wounds". Well he isn't dead, is he?

From VPD:

The man in this video is a high-risk and violent offender with a history of armed robberies, assaulting police, and drug trafficking. He is involved in the Downtown Eastside’s illicit drug trade and, based on his violent history, is considered armed and dangerous.

Thanks for letting us know which side you are on.