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  #15821  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2022, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
How many trains do we have in service now? And what is currently the frequency?

Compared to # of trains we own and frequency that was promised?
Not sure how many trains, but frequency is 5 minutes all day as far as I've seen, even rush hour and weekends.
     
     
  #15822  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2022, 3:04 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
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Why is it that a highway is deemed "overcapacity" when traffic slow down at rush hour, but transit has to be crush load for it to be considered a success?
Just out of curiosity, why do you imply that an “overcapacity” roadway is NOT a success?

If a new road is built and it becomes very crowded, is that not an indication that a lot of people want to use that roadway? That there had been a pent-up demand for travel along that corridor that had not previously been satisfied?

Of course, there are those who will claim that it is purely induced demand, caused by the appearance of the new road. Basically, that the majority of the trips along that road would not have happened, via any route, unless that specific road existed. But that still agrees with the previous statement; that a lot of people want to use that corridor.

Take, for instance, the person who had heard of that great new restaurant, but couldn’t be bothered to travel to it until the way became direct and easy. That is induced demand, but it was also an existing desire. (Albeit, not a strong enough one to drag the person on a less desirable drive.) And, think of it from the restaurant’s point of view. Now they have diners traveling in from a new area, which increases their sales.

The ‘Sunday Drive’ is very uncommon these days. Virtually every trip, whether in a car along a new road, or in a transit vehicle, is now one that supports the economy. It can be someone going to work, or going to a friend’s house for dinner, or any other reason; generally, it means that money is getting spent. (Even the odd ‘Sunday Drive’ will require the purchase of fuel, if nothing else.)

Personally, I consider a crowded road and a crowded bus BOTH successes – but at the same time problems. Once either gets too crowded, it begins to throttle economic growth. However, I would say that the more successful of the two is the congested road.

I do realize that there SHOULD, ideally, be a shift of people’s movements away from their private cars to public transit, but that is not (generally) realistic. Unless public transit is as fast and convenient as a car, then it will not win in the decision. If a couple make a last-minute decision to visit a restaurant on the other side of town, they want to get there in an expeditious manner, not take a long expedition on slow, crowded, public transit which will force them to wait an unknown period of time in a harsh environment while they wait to transfer vehicles.

IF we expect people to choose the crush-load bus, which may or may not show up, then we are dreaming. Even if traveling by car takes the same length of time as a bus (which is a wildly unrealistic assumption), sitting in a private car, away from the crush-load and transfers, is infinitely preferrable. If public transit became easier and faster than a private car, then it would become the preferred transportation. For example, I believe that it was Honeywell which took the vans away from some of their technicians in London, England, and provided them with a portable tool-kit and a transit pass. It turned out that in downtown London, it is much easier and faster to get around using the Tube, verses a van. The number of service calls completed per day increased and customers were happier with the faster response.

Unless Ottawa makes the decision to really, drastically, redesign its failing transit system, it is doomed. At one point, Ottawa provided fast, reliable transit for workers to travel between the suburbs and downtown. The Transitway provided a one-seat ride past most of the road traffic, and the premium-priced Express buses were not overly crowded. It was the choice for over half of the commuters going downtown. From there, it has been a steady decline.

But the Transitway was a radical change in thinking for Ottawa’s transit system. It didn’t happen overnight, and it took large sums of money to get it (mostly) realized. With all of the environmental (in the grandest sense of the word, not simply limited to the ‘Green Shift’) changes taking place now, Ottawa will need to again look for a radical solution. That, too, will take a lot of time and money to implement. In the meantime, roads will continue to be the preferred choice for transportation.
     
     
  #15823  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2022, 3:26 PM
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I guess I should clarify. It is expected that a transit line be at crush load. If a roadway or highway is at crush load, or even medium congested, society seems to think we absolutely need that route to be widened, or an alternative route built.

The Brian Coburn, Walkley and Hunt Club mess planed (but so far rejected by the NCC) north of Mer Bleue is a great example. None of the existing roads (Innes, Brian Coburn, the 417 south of the split) are congested. These extensions are not needed, but the City is pushing hard to get them and claim that we can't density south Orleans until it's built. Renaud is the only one congested, but honestly, we should just give it back to the NCC and naturalize it, forcing people to use the under capacity Innes bypass.
     
     
  #15824  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2022, 4:15 PM
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I think that what is happening here is confusion in what the word “success” means.

For me, a roadway is a “success” if it is a preferred route that facilitates economic growth. Therefore, a road that is occasionally congested is a “success” for me. Even more so if it is in such high demand that many people are willing to spend their time slowly creeping along it.

A transit route is a “success”, again, if it attracts a lot of people, even though it is occasionally over crowded.

What I DO NOT think of as being a “success” is the way OC Transpo must use crowding and poor service levels to throttle use of the system. (Although, one could say that they have been ‘successful’ in doing that.) But needing to limit system use is not something that OC Transpo has a lot of say about.

OC Transpo receives limited resources. (Limited amount of money; limited number of operators; limited number of vehicles; etc.) Because of this, it must restrict the use of public transit. When a bus shows up, but is too crowded for new passengers to board, potential customers are soured on using transit the next time. If additional resources become available, riding transit can be made a bit more comfortable; which might attract some additional customers – up to the point that it is again barely acceptable. It is all a matter of balance.

[I agree. The Brian Coburn extension through an NCC-controlled farm field is just a crazy idea. The only explanation that I can think of is that it is a bargaining ploy - similar to the City saying that it had to run a 4-lane road through the NCC's Stony Swamp so that Kanata-south people could drive to the 416. In fact, the City just wanted to widen a stretch of Richmond Road and West Hunt Club. I don't see what the City's end-game plan for that Brian Coburn idea would be, though.]
     
     
  #15825  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2022, 4:44 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Ridership of the Confederation Line has really picked-up. Nearly every seat taken at rush hour, a dozen or two people standing. I feel like this should have been the initial target. It's busy, but not crush load. It makes the ride much more pleasant than pre-pandemic without feeling like were wasting money running these huge vehicles.

Why is it that a highway is deemed "overcapacity" when traffic slow down at rush hour, but transit has to be crush load for it to be considered a success?
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I guess I should clarify. It is expected that a transit line be at crush load. If a roadway or highway is at crush load, or even medium congested, society seems to think we absolutely need that route to be widened, or an alternative route built.

The Brian Coburn, Walkley and Hunt Club mess planed (but so far rejected by the NCC) north of Mer Bleue is a great example. None of the existing roads (Innes, Brian Coburn, the 417 south of the split) are congested. These extensions are not needed, but the City is pushing hard to get them and claim that we can't density south Orleans until it's built. Renaud is the only one congested, but honestly, we should just give it back to the NCC and naturalize it, forcing people to use the under capacity Innes bypass.
That is due to the fact that driving a Bugatti or being chauffeured in a rolls Royce is viewed as better than riding a bus.
     
     
  #15826  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2022, 1:10 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
That is due to the fact that driving a Bugatti or being chauffeured in a rolls Royce is viewed as better than riding a bus.
If everyone is going down Brian Cockburn and Renaud to get downtown, shouldn't we just build an LRT extension out that way, connecting at say, Blair to the main line?

Better yet, just looking at this: Bearbrook and Navan Road are aligned at a distance. Connect these with an LRT down to Navan, flyover green's creek, flyover the highway and Bob's your uncle!

The real issue is the plate of spag (fr) acting as a barrier from the highway to everyone's reasonably-distanced housing south of the highway. What an annoying plan, every time I go down there and I take the highway to Jeanne D'Arc or Orleans Boulevard or something, I feel like I'm not actually driving somewhere useful, or reaching my destination in an efficient way, so I use Innes to pull the chute.

Either turn Innes into an actual highway, increase transit performance, or stop with the housing.
     
     
  #15827  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2022, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
How many trains do we have in service now? And what is currently the frequency?
15 double trains during the AM Rush Hour
13 double trains during the PM Rush Hour
11 double trains during the day

In terms of frequencies
- 15 double trains (without the temporary speed restrictions): 3/4/4 minute frequency

- 15 double trains (with the temporary speed restrictions that is presently in place): Not sure, as I haven't ridden the LRT during the AM Rush Hour since late-August. I'm guesting every 4 minutes; or every 4/5 minute service

- 13 double trains (without the temporary speed restrictions): 4 minute frequency

- 13 double trains (with the temporary speed restrictions that is presently in place): 5 minute frequency

- 11 double trains (without the temporary speed restrictions): 5 minute frequency

- 11 double trains (with the temporary speed restrictions that is presently in place): 6 minute frequency

*********
Tidbit for any rail fans:

If anybody wants to spot Trains 12 and 13 entering service during the PM Rush Hour, from the Belfast MSF to the mainline (under the current arrangement with the temporary speed restrictions), here are the times to do so from the Belfast Rd overpass:

- Train 12 enters the mainline at 14:31 going eastbound to Blair, arrives St. Laurent Station at 14:33 as an empty train, departs St. Laurent Station as its first stop in-service at 14:34

- Train 13 enters the mainline at 14:37 going westbound to Tunney's Pasture, arrives Tremblay Station at 14:38 as an empty train, departs Tremblay Station as its its first stop in-service at 14:39

- If you are at either St. Laurent or Tremblay Station (for the respective trains entering service), there is a misleading Passenger Information Display saying "1 Non Service Train", as well as a misleading passenger announcement saying "Attention, the train approaching the station is NOT in service, please stand back from the platform edge yellow line". The respective trains just entering service will have their exterior signs display as "Off Route" until after the train have arrived and opened their doors.

- Once the doors from those trains open, the exterior sign of the train will then sign up (either '1 Blair' or '1 Tunney's Pasture'), and the Passenger Information Display will display correctly.

I'm currently working on a video of Trains 12 and 13 entering service under the current temporary speed restrictions.

Here is a video of Trains 12 and 13 entering service last year in 2021 without the speed restrictions (and just prior to the derailment)

• Video Link
     
     
  #15828  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 4:31 PM
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Yesterday afternoon (Nov 10, 2022), there was a disruption on O-Trian Line 1. 

This is a video taken at uOttawa Station on my observations in how they were managing the disruption. A more detailed description of my observation is on the YouTube page of the video. 

• Video Link
     
     
  #15829  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 7:00 PM
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Apparently, there was a medical emergency at uOttawa. Might have been the cause.
     
     
  #15830  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2022, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Apparently, there was a medical emergency at uOttawa. Might have been the cause.
I'm not so sure that it was a medical emergency in yesterday's disruption. The impression I get is that there may have been a broken down train, but I didn't see it actually see where it was. OC Transpo did tweet out a two-part thread yesterday evening (https://twitter.com/OC_Transpo/status/1590842725733367815) that the stopped train was "fixed", however I'm of the belief that the stopped train occurred west of Hurdman and east of uOttawa.

Today (November 11, 2022), I received an SMS alert at 12:53pm saying that there was a "medical response" forcing trains between Tunney's Pasture and Lyon to use the eastbound platform (Platform 2).
     
     
  #15831  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2022, 3:06 PM
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I am very concerned about all this talk of 'medical responses'. We know what this is code for. It tells me that we need platform screen doors, so this is not a preferred location.
     
     
  #15832  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2022, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I am very concerned about all this talk of 'medical responses'. We know what this is code for. It tells me that we need platform screen doors, so this is not a preferred location.
That is a high cost.
They will just find another location.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
     
     
  #15833  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2022, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I am very concerned about all this talk of 'medical responses'. We know what this is code for. It tells me that we need platform screen doors, so this is not a preferred location.
This is almost certainly not that, but rather run of the mill incidents. Should the worst occur, they would not leave the other platform open, the station would close, and it will take quite a while to clear the incident, much longer than any recent issue.
     
     
  #15834  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2022, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
This is almost certainly not that, but rather run of the mill incidents. Should the worst occur, they would not leave the other platform open, the station would close, and it will take quite a while to clear the incident, much longer than any recent issue.
Thank you for the reassurance.
     
     
  #15835  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 1:28 AM
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O-Train Line 1 closed for testing Saturday, replacement buses running

Megan Gillis, Ottawa Citizen
Nov 17, 2022 • 8 hours ago • 1 minute read


O-Train Line 1 will be fully closed Saturday for testing by Rideau Transit Group that’s part of an ongoing investigation into the cause of axle hub failures last summer.

R1 replacement bus service will run frequently during the planned closure, OC Transpo said. LRT service resumes at 8 a.m. Sunday.

The buses will bypass Cyrville Station to improve travel times so riders travelling to and from Cyrville Station can use a shuttle bus that will run between St-Laurent Station Stop C and Cyrville Station Stop B.

Tunney’s Pasture, Hurdman and Blair Stations will remain open Saturday so riders can reach R1 service in the bus loop.

OC Transpo general manager Renée Amilcar said in a Nov. 10 memo to city council and the transit commission that replacement buses would come as often as trains and the vehicle and system testing was scheduled for a Saturday when ridership is lower.

The testing is part of a “root cause investigation” into axel hub issues that have led RTG and train-maker Alstom to inspect and replace axle hubs on trains with more than 175,000 km of service. Speed restrictions and boosted inspections are still in place until RTG finds the root cause of the problem, Amilcar wrote.

More testing is underway until Nov. 24 but it’s during off-peak and overnight hours. Customers may see out-of-service trains running.

“OC Transpo remains focused on providing a safe and reliable service for transit customers and continues to work collaboratively with RTG on investigation efforts,” Amilcar said.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...sting-saturday-replacement-buses-running
     
     
  #15836  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 1:32 PM
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From the Canadian white elephant thread.

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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Toronto's is the Sheppard subway - some stations average as little as 2,500 passengers a day.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/h...sons-for-avoiding-bad-planning-1.5141013
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Mirabel will win this thread for sure. Imagine spending the money to build a major international airport only to abandon it a generation later?

Some other Toronto-area white elephants, at least in my opinion:

1. Bloomington GO train station:



Source

$82 million was spent to build an enormous GO train station complete with a multistory parkade at the end of the little-used Richmond Hill line. That line only sees 4 trains out in the morning, and 4 trains returning in the evening, and it's never going to become a frequent transit line because it's either sharing tracks with CN's mainline or it takes a very twisty and slow path through the Don River valley that serves absolutely no trip generators. The station itself sits in an undevelopable moraine, so it'll never be a good spot for TOD.

The thinking behind this station was that it was near highway 404 and it would be a park-and-ride station for commuters coming in from further away but, if all they wanted was a park-and-ride, they didn't have to build such an elaborate station.

2. Highway 407 subway station.



Source

Same as above. A really expensive subway station that almost feels like a small airport terminal, that sits in a very undesirable spot - jammed between a cemetery, two highways and a freight rail line. It can't support any new developments and it has limited use as a park and ride.
Other image of Hwy 407 station:







https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_407_station

So frustrating that our relatively high ridership system ended up as tight underground stations with narrow platform and mostly single escalators, bus loops with no coverage other than standard bus shelters and plywood scaffolding. Our high ridership suburban stations (though maybe not as high-ridership in a post-pandemic world) is acres of surface parking and more bus loops with standard bus shelters, and in the case of Trim, no link to the north side of the highway.
     
     
  #15837  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 3:29 PM
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Orleans Blvd LRT Station will be another white elephant once it is built, no reason for this stop. 10th Line would have been much better, and setup direct feeders up from 10th Line Fallingbrook, Queenswood, Avalon areas
     
     
  #15838  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 3:42 PM
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Orleans Blvd LRT Station will be another white elephant once it is built, no reason for this stop. 10th Line would have been much better, and setup direct feeders up from 10th Line Fallingbrook, Queenswood, Avalon areas
It's a strange one, for sure. I would have prioritized Jasmine, a dense, low-income area with a population that actually uses transit, or Orleans Town Centre/Centrum with destinations like the cinema, YMCA (or whatever that will become), City offices and Shenkman Arts Centre. Lots of TOD potential as well; it already has the retail/restaurants/services which seems so hard to get in new TOD districts. Just need residential.
     
     
  #15839  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 4:29 PM
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The Sheppard Line is not a white elephant, but an unfinished project. If it were extended east to the STC and west to Downsview, or even to Pearson, it would be a good, well used subway.
     
     
  #15840  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2022, 4:57 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
The Sheppard Line is not a white elephant, but an unfinished project. If it were extended east to the STC and west to Downsview, or even to Pearson, it would be a good, well used subway.
That's what makes it a white elephant. It's a Billion dollar line that doesn't serve a purpose because it was cut short. Now the Crosstown and the Scarborough Subway will sort of serve in part the purpose Sheppard should have.

Looking at where it was built, at the far north end of Toronto, serving low-density suburbs (it has densified since) was a strange choice when the downtown portion was overcrowded even then.

Interesting to think that this Line was built for $1 Billion while the original Trillium Line was built around the same time for $21 million, 48 times more expensive, yet only carried 2.5 times more people (at Trillium's peak in Fall 2019). Even if you add $47 million to the Trillium's initial price tag to account for the 2013 expansion (adjusted down for inflation) it's a 14.7 time price difference.

I think Stage 2 Trillium will end up being a white elephant. $700 million+ for two more stations along the existing corridor and no improvement to service. I bet the Airport and Riverside South expansions won't add more than 2,500 riders per day, at best. Any significant ridership increases will come from the Walkley to Bayview stretch.
     
     
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