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  #6521  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2022, 3:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Brick and mortar streetfront retail is dead unless it's grocery stores, walmart, and dollar stores. Web commerce is the present and future. Why would a developer build dead space except to satisfy an obsolete ordinance?
Huh? I'm not following - nobody said they have to build retail here. The ordinance is for "active use" on key corridors, which includes Spring street. That can include things like lobby entrances, residential live/work units, flexible office space, bicycle parking, restaurants, cafes, gyms, outdoor dining, leasing offices for nearby under construction buildings, temporary art exhibits, water features, seating areas, and flexible community space.
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  #6522  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2022, 3:15 PM
tallpez tallpez is offline
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Originally Posted by shivtim View Post
Huh? I'm not following - nobody said they have to build retail here. The ordinance is for "active use" on key corridors, which includes Spring street. That can include things like lobby entrances, residential live/work units, flexible office space, bicycle parking, restaurants, cafes, gyms, outdoor dining, leasing offices for nearby under construction buildings, temporary art exhibits, water features, seating areas, and flexible community space.
IIRC GA Tech being a state entity is exempt from the ordinance.
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  #6523  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2022, 4:22 PM
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Shivtim, why mandate any active use? Result is mostly dead space anyway. Let the developer decide what's good. If you want public use then de-regulate sidewalk vending.
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  #6524  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2022, 5:13 PM
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Shivtim, why mandate any active use? Result is mostly dead space anyway. Let the developer decide what's good. If you want public use then de-regulate sidewalk vending.
The sound of you shifting the goalposts is deafening.
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  #6525  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2022, 5:32 PM
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Tech is exempt from folllowing DRC or COA requirements; however, they have stated the towers will have retail spaces along 5th street.
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  #6526  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2022, 7:48 PM
testarossa50 testarossa50 is online now
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Shivtim, why mandate any active use? Result is mostly dead space anyway. Let the developer decide what's good. If you want public use then de-regulate sidewalk vending.
lol, Midtown Atlanta has a 2.1% retail vacancy rate, and the second highest asking prices in the city behind Buckhead. Acting like all midtown retail is empty storefronts makes it seem like you wandered in from 2008.

https://www.avisonyoung.us/documents/883...%29/85322404-10fe-4250-aa37-458631abb9c3

If you want to get all libertarian about something, do FAR limits instead plz
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  #6527  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2022, 8:21 PM
Martinman Martinman is offline
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Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Brick and mortar streetfront retail is dead unless it's grocery stores, walmart, and dollar stores. Web commerce is the present and future. Why would a developer build dead space except to satisfy an obsolete ordinance?


Street level retail is so dead that all of the wealthy N Fulton suburban cities are clamoring to build developments with... wait for it... street level retail.

I guess If you weren't out of touch, you wouldn't be Libertarian.
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  #6528  
Old Posted Oct 22, 2022, 1:33 AM
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Midtown Atlanta has a 2.1% retail vacancy rate
Agreed that retail has remained positive of late due to post-pandemic recovery as the apartment and office sector has remained weak. My point, owners and developers should decide whether to include retail. It should not be mandated. What's the problem? You think government can be a better planner than the enlightened self interest of the parties involved? Top-down government theory never gives the best outcome. Mandates cause building costs to rise which results in higher rents and lower product quality.
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  #6529  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2022, 2:09 PM
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Giant, Caribbean-style lagoons bound for Atlanta. Where should they go?

Crystal Lagoons has signed a regional exclusivity agreement with two Atlanta-based firms—intown developer Tenth Street Ventures and ESG real estate group’s EcoVest Capital—to build lagoons around Georgia and North Carolina, by way of a newly formed LLC called EcoWave 10.

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/crystal-lagoons-bound-atlanta-photos-where-should-they-go

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  #6530  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2022, 3:43 PM
bryantm3 bryantm3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Agreed that retail has remained positive of late due to post-pandemic recovery as the apartment and office sector has remained weak. My point, owners and developers should decide whether to include retail. It should not be mandated. What's the problem? You think government can be a better planner than the enlightened self interest of the parties involved? Top-down government theory never gives the best outcome. Mandates cause building costs to rise which results in higher rents and lower product quality.
There is a complex web of subsidies, taxes, and regulations that determine what's built in the first place. It's not a free market. Why should the local community have no input when the state, city, county and federal govermments have already pulled so many economic levers?
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  #6531  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2022, 4:24 PM
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Maybe that's why we can't afford nice things. The fruits of socialism.
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  #6532  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2022, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Agreed that retail has remained positive of late due to post-pandemic recovery as the apartment and office sector has remained weak. My point, owners and developers should decide whether to include retail. It should not be mandated. What's the problem? You think government can be a better planner than the enlightened self interest of the parties involved? Top-down government theory never gives the best outcome. Mandates cause building costs to rise which results in higher rents and lower product quality.
The problem is that the scars of government mandated poor urban design, ie near totally car-centric, are still influencing developers' decisions. The government accommodating the auto industry was unnatural and by no means the result of the invisible hand or however you want to put it.
The idea of forcing more pleasant street presence and implementing thoughtful/future-facing uses for the land is really bottom-up, not top down: the construction/developer market cannot sufficiently correct for the environmental, social and economic needs of today and tomorrow given the current situation in car-centric places like Atlanta and other sunbelt cities. The NPUs only have so much pull. Therefore, the government needs to interfere by mandating these things. I believe that's the logic there.
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  #6533  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2022, 10:44 PM
testarossa50 testarossa50 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Agreed that retail has remained positive of late due to post-pandemic recovery as the apartment and office sector has remained weak. My point, owners and developers should decide whether to include retail. It should not be mandated. What's the problem? You think government can be a better planner than the enlightened self interest of the parties involved? Top-down government theory never gives the best outcome. Mandates cause building costs to rise which results in higher rents and lower product quality.
Man, I really appreciate how much of a relic of a bygone era you are with these sorts of arguments.

Anyways, pretty simple free-rider/externality problem at play here. The neighborhood benefits from street level retail (or “active uses,” which as other have pointed out is a lot broader/easier of a thing to achieve). This drives up property values immensely by making it a walkable sort of place that people want to live. But it’s not necessarily in the interest of an individual developer to redesign their building for a relatively small amount of street level retail which doesn’t help the financing, changes/constrains parking garage configurations, and just isn’t very profitable in general. They’re best off benefiting from the active street experience created by other developers, but not delivering it themselves—a bad outcome.

Textbook ~ECON102 situation where government intervention improves outcomes.

And as you can see throughout Midtown, there are plenty of recent examples showing just how milquetoast the active use requirements really are. You can still get away with doing very little. Maximum FAR is a way, way bigger intervention in the market, and much less economically sound.
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  #6534  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:11 AM
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What good is done when the space sits empty or underutilized?
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  #6535  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:43 AM
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What good is done when the space sits empty or underutilized?
Now you're just talking in circles.
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  #6536  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 12:55 PM
RocketSurgeon RocketSurgeon is online now
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Looks like the Tech Square groundbreaking was only a political event. There's no sign of any work starting, which isn't surprising since it's still in the design phase.
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  #6537  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:01 PM
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My point, owners and developers should decide whether to include retail. It should not be mandated.
They do decide. There is not one place in the entire city of Atlanta where retail is mandated. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this.
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  #6538  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:05 PM
RATBOYKEV RATBOYKEV is offline
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You think government can be a better planner than the enlightened self interest of the parties involved?



yes
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  #6539  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:27 PM
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In fact retail is mandated, call it what you like.
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  #6540  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:38 PM
RATBOYKEV RATBOYKEV is offline
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In fact retail is mandated, call it what you like.


Libertarian, retail is not mandated. Midtown zoning regulations require active uses, many of which are retail, as defined in the above table and there are options that are not retail if a developer chooses so.
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