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  #3741  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
So, when does Surrey and Langley get express buses to Waterfront? 500 people? That is at least 5-6 buses. When does that service start?
They don't. The SkyTrain is already the most fastest/frequent/cost-effective/reliable/convenient possible service for Surrey and Langley... just as the FVX is for Abbotsford. Heavy rail works for neither, just like LRT. Once again: apples and oranges.

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So, those towers in downtown are all going to magically move to the regional town centre?
Those towers in downtown will be staffed by Vancouverites living in the CoV and inner suburbs. Get your head out of the Seventies - Canadian metros are much more decentralized these days.
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  #3742  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 12:43 AM
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Those towers in downtown will be staffed by Vancouverites living in the CoV and inner suburbs. Get your head out of the Seventies - Canadian metros are much more decentralized these days.
So, you are saying that all the people in those towers want to live in condos and post war sprawl?
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  #3743  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 12:47 AM
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So, you are saying that all the people in those towers want to live in condos and post war sprawl?
They already are - that, and spare garages and basements. Just check any real estate site.

Metro Vancouver can also approve townhomes, co-ops, subsidized rentals, rowhouses, quadplexes, sixplexes and dozens of other housing types that aren't SFHs with four bedrooms, three bathrooms and two-car garages; we're seeing that right now.
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  #3744  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 12:49 AM
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They already are - that, and spare garages and basements. Just check any real estate site.

Metro Vancouver can also approve townhomes, co-ops, rowhouses, quadplexes, sixplexes and dozens of other kinds of housing and zones that aren't SFHs with four bedrooms, three bathrooms and two-car garages; we're seeing that right now.
You mean we get to live in garages?
Oh, such wonderful times.
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  #3745  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 12:51 AM
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I take it this is your first time hearing about the housing crisis? You want a McMansion out in the countryside, don't expect the commute to be easy; want to live in the city, expect to give up a little space. Even Walnut Grove's getting denser.

For the record, many laneway homes are surprisingly nice.
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  #3746  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 12:58 AM
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So, those towers in downtown are all going to magically move to the regional town centre?
Are you being deliberately stupid? The towers in Downtown Surrey are in the second regional centre. The towers in Downtown Vancouver are in the Metro Core - the first regional centre.

If someone lives in a Surrey tower and works in Vancouver they most likely take the SkyTrain to work, and when the Broadway subway opens they can get to the Uptown (City Hall/VGH) part of the Metro Core easily as well. Anyone working in Surrey Centre, living in Downtown Vancouver can take a SkyTrain to Surrey Centre.

But 70% of Vancouver residents work in ... Vancouver. And in 2016 22% of Downtown residents took transit to work, but 40% walked to work.
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  #3747  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
I take it this is your first time hearing about the housing crisis? You want a McMansion out in the countryside, don't expect the commute to be easy; want to live in the city, expect to give up a little space. Even Walnut Grove's getting denser.

For the record, many laneway homes are surprisingly nice.
Just because they have to exist does not mean they should. If anything this shows that there is a lack of affordable housing and a lack of transportation from where there is affordable housing. Imagine instead of living in a garage, you live in a house and you take good, fast transit to work.

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Are you being deliberately stupid? The towers in Downtown Surrey are in the second regional centre. The towers in Downtown Vancouver are in the Metro Core - the first regional centre.

If someone lives in a Surrey tower and works in Vancouver they most likely take the SkyTrain to work, and when the Broadway subway opens they can get to the Uptown (City Hall/VGH) part of the Metro Core easily as well. Anyone working in Surrey Centre, living in Downtown Vancouver can take a SkyTrain to Surrey Centre.

But 70% of Vancouver residents work in ... Vancouver.
I was deliberately using words to have people, like our resident coconut try to say that living in a garage is a great thing. He did, and it only shows how he really does not care about anyone.
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  #3748  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:13 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Just because they have to exist does not mean they should. If anything this shows that there is a lack of affordable housing and a lack of transportation from where there is affordable housing. Imagine instead of living in a garage, you live in a house and you take good, fast transit to work.



I was deliberately using words to have people, like our resident coconut try to say that living in a garage is a great thing. He did, and it only shows how he really does not care about anyone.
Or you live in a townhouse in the city and take transit to work, instead of sprawling more and more suburbistan up the Valley all the way to Hope and Kamloops. SFHs are no longer practical for a metro this big.

It's not ideal, but it's the reality we live in, and it's not always a horrible one (unless you're in a basement suite, which does suck). Want to get people out of laneways? Rezone Marpole, Kitsilano and Grandview for rowhouses and walkups. It's you and all the other Karens in the Lower Mainland who selfishly want to have their cake and eat it too, no matter how many laws of reality you have to try and break in the process. When do you want the train to Powell River or Port Douglas? Surely they deserve to be able to very slowly ride into downtown as well?
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  #3749  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:19 AM
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Or you live in a townhouse in the city and take that transit to work, instead of sprawling more and more suburbistan up the Valley all the way to Hope and Kamloops. SFHs are no longer practical for a metro this big.
You are right. Lets just sprawl up the mountains like is currently being done.

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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
It's not ideal, but it's the reality we live in, and it's not always a horrible one (unless you're in a basement suite, which does suck). Want to get people out of laneways? Rezone Marpole, Kitsilano and Grandview for rowhouses and walkups. It's you and all the other Karens in the Lower Mainland who selfishly want to have their cake and eat it too, no matter how many laws of reality you have to try and break in the process.
I think that all Skytrain stations and WCE stations should have a 2km radius of no SFH permitted. I am not against towers. I am against poor transportation forcing people into crappy housing choices.
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  #3750  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:25 AM
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The province or feds only fund projects that municipal governments want... and as repeatedly explained, Abbotsford and Chilliwack want buses instead.
Although I understand the thought process behind this, the reality out here in the Fraser Valley is a bit more nuanced. BC Transit pushes heavily for busses and talks a lot about the big changes on the horizon when it comes to a better and more usable transit network, but the last 30 years, and the plans they have so far released show that the effort past, present and future will not result in the expansion of use as outlined in their own 2013 25 year plan. It is nothing more than a doubling down with minor adjustments of the existing system which fails to attract ridership due to it’s dubiously planned failings.

The cities in the Fraser Valley are at the mercy of a transit system run by an out-of-touch Americanized transit authority that is nearly-unusable for anything aside from the most rudimentary trips that don't have time restraints. I say this from 32 years of personal experience living in Abbotsford. The comments of family, friends, and people via business connections all point to a terrible dissatisfaction with the transit system, a staunch willingness to invest in and use transit solutions that are planned comprehensively, and hoping for rail transit solutions that aren't entirely hampered by our permanently congested freeways like the "long term plans" BC Transit released in 2013. Plans which rely solely on rapid busses with no contingency for freeway expansion that is not being planned or being built at a snails pace (less than 1.8km/year presently of one HOV lane addition.)

Ridership in the Fraser Valley, and specifically Abbotsford-Mission is very, very low for a reason. The system has a long history of unreliability, looping routing, poor schedules, and no serious advantage to anyone in a region where cars are the law of the land as is. I live 4 kilometers from where I work, and the quickest I could get to work by transit would still require me to walk 2.1 of those 4 kilometers and be over 2 hours late for my shift. I wish this was a unique problem, but when I meet someone who actually uses the bus system or relies on it for work, I will tell you.

Census '21 put our population in the Fraser Valley at a hair under 330,000 people (an increase of nearly 30,000) with that increase in population accelerating year over year and people say that because our current transit ridership is low, there is no reason to invest? Ridership is low because the transit is subpar. I have not talked to a single person on any realm of the political spectrum out here that is unwilling to invest in a future of multi-modal transit, yet we are told it is pointless and hopeless. People in the Fraser Valley are despondent and trapped in their cars and get talked down by people who live in cities where transit is an option. I challenge any of those people to live in the valley and tell me with a straight face that everyone here wants to be stuck in traffic all day, every day, and have no other options than to bleed their personal finances on gas and insurance, and their time stuck on roads that have been overcapacity for decades.

We can’t rely on transit in our cities, we can’t rely on transit to get between our cities. The highways are at a standstill, and busses will be stuck on them if that’s the only solution. Population not big enough for rail transit? Well of course, that is always the go-to, but it seems to work in other countries. Go figure.

Funny enough, the population of the Fraser Valley now is nearly as many people as the entirety of the province of British Columbia when the Electric Railway was built through the valley.
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  #3751  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:26 AM
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You are right. Lets just sprawl up the mountains like is currently being done.

I think that all Skytrain stations and WCE stations should have a 2km radius of no SFH permitted. I am not against towers. I am against poor transportation forcing people into crappy housing choices.
West Van is full of NIMBYs - they'd rather live halfway up Cypress and ride a gondola down than accept a single RapidBus lane or a building over four floors. Sounds familiar...

Metro Vancouver has fairly good transportation for a North American city, and it's getting better every year; what's missing is the density to match it and the political will to make it so. Rezone the CoV for multifamily, prices fall off a cliff, and then nobody needs to live in Mission unless they want to.
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  #3752  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:28 AM
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Although I understand the thought process behind this, the reality out here in the Fraser Valley is a bit more nuanced. BC Transit pushes heavily for busses and talks a lot about the big changes on the horizon when it comes to a better and more usable transit network, but the last 30 years, and the plans they have so far released show that the effort past, present and future will not result in the expansion of use as outlined in their own 2013 25 year plan. It is nothing more than a doubling down with minor adjustments of the existing system which fails to attract ridership due to it’s dubiously planned failings.

The cities in the Fraser Valley are at the mercy of a transit system run by an out-of-touch Americanized transit authority that is nearly-unusable for anything aside from the most rudimentary trips that don't have time restraints. I say this from 32 years of personal experience living in Abbotsford. The comments of family, friends, and people via business connections all point to a terrible dissatisfaction with the transit system, a staunch willingness to invest in and use transit solutions that are planned comprehensively, and hoping for rail transit solutions that aren't entirely hampered by our permanently congested freeways like the "long term plans" BC Transit released in 2013. Plans which rely solely on rapid busses with no contingency for freeway expansion that is not being planned or being built at a snails pace (less than 1.8km/year presently of one HOV lane addition.)

Ridership in the Fraser Valley, and specifically Abbotsford-Mission is very, very low for a reason. The system has a long history of unreliability, looping routing, poor schedules, and no serious advantage to anyone in a region where cars are the law of the land as is. I live 4 kilometers from where I work, and the quickest I could get to work by transit would still require me to walk 2.1 of those 4 kilometers and be over 2 hours late for my shift. I wish this was a unique problem, but when I meet someone who actually uses the bus system or relies on it for work, I will tell you.

Census '21 put our population in the Fraser Valley at a hair under 330,000 people (an increase of nearly 30,000) with that increase in population accelerating year over year and people say that because our current transit ridership is low, there is no reason to invest? Ridership is low because the transit is subpar. I have not talked to a single person on any realm of the political spectrum out here that is unwilling to invest in a future of multi-modal transit, yet we are told it is pointless and hopeless. People in the Fraser Valley are despondent and trapped in their cars and get talked down by people who live in cities where transit is an option. I challenge any of those people to live in the valley and tell me with a straight face that everyone here wants to be stuck in traffic all day, every day, and have no other options than to bleed their personal finances on gas and insurance, and their time stuck on roads that have been overcapacity for decades.

We can’t rely on transit in our cities, we can’t rely on transit to get between our cities. The highways are at a standstill, and busses will be stuck on them if that’s the only solution. Population not big enough for rail transit? Well of course, that is always the go-to, but it seems to work in other countries. Go figure.

Funny enough, the population of the Fraser Valley now is nearly as many people as the entirety of the province of British Columbia when the Electric Railway was built through the valley.
Welcome to the forum. The BCER was a different beast for a different time; we've discussed over the last few weeks how if you ran the same thing now, you'd actually waste more time on the train than you would on the FVX.

Yeah, Abbotsford's transit sucks, many people have to drive, and it's not (always) their fault, but that's more of an argument for a proper bus grid and 15-minute frequent service, posthaste; the vast majority of residents live and work within Abby itself. Bus lanes on the TCH (so the FVX isn't stuck in traffic) would help too. Increasing local ridership - and density along bus routes* - is how Vancouver got enough ridership to justify the SkyTrain and WCE in the first place.

*Seriously, last time I was in Abby, it was mostly strip malls and gas stations. It's hard to improve transit when half the city is built to discourage it.
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  #3753  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:36 AM
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Originally Posted by KincLosddy View Post
Although I understand the thought process behind this, the reality out here in the Fraser Valley is a bit more nuanced. BC Transit pushes heavily for busses and talks a lot about the big changes on the horizon when it comes to a better and more usable transit network, but the last 30 years, and the plans they have so far released show that the effort past, present and future will not result in the expansion of use as outlined in their own 2013 25 year plan. It is nothing more than a doubling down with minor adjustments of the existing system which fails to attract ridership due to it’s dubiously planned failings.

The cities in the Fraser Valley are at the mercy of a transit system run by an out-of-touch Americanized transit authority that is nearly-unusable for anything aside from the most rudimentary trips that don't have time restraints. I say this from 32 years of personal experience living in Abbotsford. The comments of family, friends, and people via business connections all point to a terrible dissatisfaction with the transit system, a staunch willingness to invest in and use transit solutions that are planned comprehensively, and hoping for rail transit solutions that aren't entirely hampered by our permanently congested freeways like the "long term plans" BC Transit released in 2013. Plans which rely solely on rapid busses with no contingency for freeway expansion that is not being planned or being built at a snails pace (less than 1.8km/year presently of one HOV lane addition.)

Ridership in the Fraser Valley, and specifically Abbotsford-Mission is very, very low for a reason. The system has a long history of unreliability, looping routing, poor schedules, and no serious advantage to anyone in a region where cars are the law of the land as is. I live 4 kilometers from where I work, and the quickest I could get to work by transit would still require me to walk 2.1 of those 4 kilometers and be over 2 hours late for my shift. I wish this was a unique problem, but when I meet someone who actually uses the bus system or relies on it for work, I will tell you.

Census '21 put our population in the Fraser Valley at a hair under 330,000 people (an increase of nearly 30,000) with that increase in population accelerating year over year and people say that because our current transit ridership is low, there is no reason to invest? Ridership is low because the transit is subpar. I have not talked to a single person on any realm of the political spectrum out here that is unwilling to invest in a future of multi-modal transit, yet we are told it is pointless and hopeless. People in the Fraser Valley are despondent and trapped in their cars and get talked down by people who live in cities where transit is an option. I challenge any of those people to live in the valley and tell me with a straight face that everyone here wants to be stuck in traffic all day, every day, and have no other options than to bleed their personal finances on gas and insurance, and their time stuck on roads that have been overcapacity for decades.

We can’t rely on transit in our cities, we can’t rely on transit to get between our cities. The highways are at a standstill, and busses will be stuck on them if that’s the only solution. Population not big enough for rail transit? Well of course, that is always the go-to, but it seems to work in other countries. Go figure.

Funny enough, the population of the Fraser Valley now is nearly as many people as the entirety of the province of British Columbia when the Electric Railway was built through the valley.
What I find impressive, and sad is the fact that back then, with much less people, we had better transit and better intercity transportation. For instance, many of Montral's commuter lines have existed since the 1800s. What happened to much of our rail transportation was it was let to rot into irrelevance where a bus was "good enough". Good enough was, and still is BS! So, our local coconut trying to convince us that buses are good enough shows that that attitude still exists and still is growing. make it my personal goal to break that attitude as it has no place in a modern society.

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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
West Van is full of NIMBYs - they'd rather live halfway up Cypress and ride a gondola down than accept a single RapidBus lane or a building over four floors. Sounds familiar...

Metro Vancouver has fairly good transportation for a North American city, and it's getting better every year; what's missing is the density to match it and the political will to make it so. Rezone the CoV for multifamily, prices fall off a cliff, and then nobody needs to live in Mission unless they want to.
I actually meant North Van.... But that whole North Shore is disgusting. Imagine doing what is better fort he area and not the whiners? You actually sound like a NIMBY as you don't want the commuter rail.
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  #3754  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:38 AM
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Welcome to the forum. The BCER was a different beast for a different time; we've discussed over the last few weeks how if you ran the same thing now, you'd actually waste more time on the train than you would on the FVX.

Yeah, Abbotsford's transit sucks, many people have to drive, and it's not (always) their fault, but that's more of an argument for a proper bus grid and 15-minute frequent service, posthaste; the vast majority of residents live and work within Abby itself. Bus lanes on the TCH (so the FVX isn't stuck in traffic) would help too. Increasing local ridership - and density along bus routes* - is how Vancouver got enough ridership to justify the SkyTrain and WCE in the first place.

*Seriously, last time I was in Abby, it was mostly strip malls and gas stations. It's hard to improve transit when half the city is built to discourage it.
If the bus system already sucks, how will adding another bus make it better when the existing buses will still suck?
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  #3755  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:41 AM
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What I find impressive, and sad is the fact that back then, with much less people, we had better transit and better intercity transportation. For instance, many of Montral's commuter lines have existed since the 1800s. What happened to much of our rail transportation was it was let to rot into irrelevance where a bus was "good enough". Good enough was, and still is BS! So, our local coconut trying to convince us that buses are good enough shows that that attitude still exists and still is growing. make it my personal goal to break that attitude as it has no place in a modern society.

I actually meant North Van.... But that whole North Shore is disgusting. Imagine doing what is better fort he area and not the whiners? You actually sound like a NIMBY as you don't want the commuter rail.
Montreal's commuter lines are still useful. Vancouver's useful commuter lines are now SkyTrain; the rest have been converted to better purposes.

North Shore SkyTrain - problem solved. The CNV and DNV are doing their part to densify future transit hubs like Lonsdale, Moodyville and Lynn Creek (next to Phibbs) in preparation; still waiting for Pitt Meadows, Maple Ridge and Mission to do the same...

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
If the bus system already sucks, how will adding another bus make it better when the existing buses will still suck?
As our newest poster observed, the buses suck because the routes are weird and infrequent. So add more buses for more frequency, straighten out the lines to increase speed and convenience, and introduce express service for people who want to go faster, and that in itself creates more transit usage within Abbotsford itself, where most local commuters actually want to go. Come on, this is Transit 101.
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  #3756  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 1:44 AM
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Montreal's commuter lines are still useful. Vancouver's useful commuter lines are now SkyTrain; the rest have been converted to better purposes.

North Shore SkyTrain - problem solved. The CNV and DNV are doing their part to densify future transit hubs like Lonsdale, Moodyville and Lynn Creek (next to Phibbs) in preparation; still waiting for Pitt Meadows, Maple Ridge and Mission to do the same...
Vancouver's rail was allowed to become irrelevant by various means.

If one more SFH is approved on the North Shore, the problem is far from being solved.
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  #3757  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:01 AM
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"Various means" being more freight, more cars, faster-paced lifestyles, different commuting patterns, a failure to keep with the times, and in the case of BC Rail, bribery. Can't change the past.

It solves the problems of transport capacity on the North Shore and bridges, and of captive driving. Can't fix anybody's desire to get away from the city, but the people who want to embrace it instead will have a much easier time.
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  #3758  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:05 AM
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"Various means" being more freight, more cars, faster-paced lifestyles, different commuting patterns, a failure to keep with the times, and in the case of BC Rail, bribery. Can't change the past.

It solves the problems of transport capacity on the North Shore and bridges, and of captive driving. Can't fix anybody's desire to get away from the city, but the people who want to embrace it instead will have a much easier time.
Oh, and don't forget Climate Change.
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  #3759  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:12 AM
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Set to remove 50,000 cars from both bridges, or over 18 million a year. That should help.
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  #3760  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2022, 2:18 AM
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Set to remove 50,000 cars from both bridges, or over 18 million a year. That should help.
Won't put a dent in the carbon footprint.
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