Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Toronto has been fixing the choke points and in some places putting 4 tracks in due to traffic.

It's a lot easier to do that when you're not hemmed in between a mountain and the ocean or other geographical choke points.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

That is my point. All of Vancouver traffic is either coming in or going out of the ports or other businesses along the lines. That is not the same for places like Toronto, Montreal, or Winnipeg. Winnipeg, for instance has the largest yard in canada; Symington Yard. The second largest in Canada is the The MacMillan Yard in Vaughan, which is just north of Toronto. Both of those are CN's. CP's largest is the Toronto yard, located in,...Toronto, While Vancouver is the largest Canadian port, it is not the busiest for freight movements.

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CP pulled out some double track to save money on maintenance and make more profit. Although they would benefit from double track across Canada on their mainline, the costs for them are not going to bring a high enough return. However, there is no reason that they would say no if a government agency was going to pay for it.

Except Toronto-Winnipeg is one of the least busiest freight segments in CN’s network; Symington itself only gets 125,000 units/year. Most Toronto freight is clearly going to/from Montreal and QC (which is why the CP yard is in Malvern, facing east), and Winnipeg’s to BC, leaving plenty of room for GO and EXO service on multiple underutilized local lines and not much for the West Coast Express.

The province or feds only fund projects that municipal governments want... and as repeatedly explained, Abbotsford and Chilliwack want buses instead.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

They are tight in the Toronto area too. What has been the reasons for fixing those choke points actually has nothing to do with freight, but all to do with GO service. As GO ridership increases, they increase the number of trains.As those number of trains increase, congestion at various points, including a few diamonds occurs. So, the government sees that as a problem as it will slow the GO trains down, so they pay for it. CP and CN do not care as they can work with what they got.

Great, so CP and CN can work with what they've got, and improve it if and where it makes economic sense to them. GO now runs it's trains on track that they acquired or built for almost 70% of their operations.

CP, CN and the other track owners here don't have track they aren't using that they're willing to sell. The last time that was true was on the Arbutus Line, and that was acquired for possible future pasdenger rail, but it's not going to be built any time soon as the Canada Line was chosen instead.

So no government here is going to be able to buy track for passenger service, even if it made any sort of economic sense, because there isn't any for sale, and it's unlikely that there will be any time soon.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

It's a lot easier to do that when you're not hemmed in between a mountain and the ocean or other geographical choke points.

As apposed to massive sprawl? There is a term that is ued that BC/Vancouver should learn - expropriation. Basically, they take the land needed and compensate the owners for it. Problem solved. See that line of houses and businesses along a rail corridor? That will be removed and a second track will be put there. It is how major cities operate to bring what is needed to its citizens.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Except Toronto-Winnipeg is one of the least busiest freight segments in CN’s network; Symington itself only gets 125,000 units/year. Most Toronto freight is clearly going to/from Montreal and QC (which is why the CP yard is in Malvern, facing east), and Winnipeg’s to BC, leaving plenty of room for GO service on the underutilized local lines and not much for the West Coast Express.

This actually is a good thing for Vancouver. Toronto needed to go 4 tracks because of the traffic. Vancouver might only need 2 track to get what is needed to run commuter rail services on the various rail corridors.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The province or feds only grant money for projects that municipal governments want... and as repeatedly explained, Abbotsford and Chilliwack want buses instead.

Which is why I was ready to drop it...

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Great, so CP and CN can work with what they've got, and improve it if and where it makes economic sense to them. GO now runs it's trains on track that they acquired or built for almost 70% of their operations.

CP, CN and the other track owners here don't have track they aren't using that they're willing to sell. The last time that was true was on the Arbutus Line, and that was acquired for possible future pasdenger rail, but it's not going to be built any time soon as the Canada Line was chosen instead.

So no government here is going to be able to buy track for passenger service, even if it made any sort of economic sense, because there isn't any for sale, and it's unlikely that there will be any time soon.

One way they acquired the rights is by laying a second track. Before they bought, they paid to double track. One thing to note, back in the 1950s, and built in the 1960s, they built the York Subdivision in Toronto. This was done when it was all farmland there. It runs along the top of the city and allows the bypassing of the subdivision that is where Union Station is.

This is what is known as planning. You plan for the future and put the key things in as soon as possible to allow for that future to happen.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

This actually is a good thing for Vancouver. Toronto needed to go 4 tracks because of the traffic. Vancouver might only need 2 track to get what is needed to run commuter rail services on the various rail corridors.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

One way they acquired the rights is by laying a second track. Before they bought, they paid to double track. One thing to note, back in the 1950s, and built in the 1960s, they built the York Subdivision in Toronto. This was done when it was all farmland there. It runs along the top of the city and allows the bypassing of the subdivision that is where Union Station is.

This is what is known as planning. You plan for the future and put the key things in as soon as possible to allow for that future to happen.

It's been explained over and over again that laying a second or third track in 2000-onward is prohibitively expensive for its limited benefit, and would most likely only be done if that much additional freight were to come in (and therefore hog all the new track time). What you're really looking for is a time machine in order to to go back to last century and change things there.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Which is why I was ready to drop it...

You can drop it any time you want.

[swimmer_spe]

[QUOTE=Migrant_Coconut;9769625]It's been explained over and over again that laying a second or third track in 2000-onward is prohibitively expensive for its limited benefit. What you're really looking for is a time machine to go back to last century and change things there.
QUOTE]

It only gets more expensive the longer you put it off.

Let's say it is a plan that the CN/SRY line from Waterfront is to be twinned. what could be done is that when a property comes up for sale along it, if it is in an area that cannot fit a second track, the province buys the land. That would mean that in 20-50 years,most of the land was bought at a cheaper price.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It only gets more expensive the longer you put it off.

Let's say it is a plan that the CN/SRY line from Waterfront is to be twinned. what could be done is that when a property comes up for sale along it, if it is in an area that cannot fit a second track, the province buys the land. That would mean that in 20-50 years,most of the land was bought at a cheaper price.

Which is why it's highly unlikely to ever happen. Much better value for money to run more buses, and to more places that heavy rail can't reach.

And Victoria would buy that property... why? Again, the only people who want this train are Vander Zalm, Condon and a few loud people on random corners of the internet; the mayors want buses instead, and the province will listen to the mayors.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Which is why it's highly unlikely to ever happen. Much better value for money to run more buses, and to more places that heavy rail can't reach.

And Victoria would buy that property... why? Again, the only people who want this train are Vander Zalm, Condon and a few loud people on random corners of the internet; the mayors want buses instead, and the province will listen to the mayors.

I am guessing you don't like to plan for and prepare for the future. Otherwise you would think the old B lines should never be replaced.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am guessing you don't like to plan for and prepare for the future. Otherwise you would think the old B lines should never be replaced.

The RapidBuses are slowly being replaced with something better. We literally just showed you a study that had Valley express buses being just as good as a commuter train, and with more service hours; that is planning for the future.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The RapidBuses are slowly being replaced with something better. We literally just showed you a study that had Valley express buses being just as good as a commuter train, and with more service hours; that is planning for the future.

Which only circles us back to Skytrain to Abbotsford, of which we all can agree is a very bad idea. So, to avoid Skytrain to Abbotsford, what could be done to prepare for something better than lots of buses between Abbotsford and points west?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Express buses are already the best (practical) option - it'll be the end of the century before the FVX gets 56k daily riders, and other routes can cover YXX, Steelhead, Hatzic, Dewdney, South Sumas, Harrison Hot Springs and all the places trains don't reach.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Express buses are already the best (practical) option - it'll be the end of the century before the FVX gets 56k daily riders.

Can you back that up?

[Migrant_Coconut]

The FVX currently gets less than 700 riders/day. How do you propose that 700 grows to 56,000 in less than fifty years? Even downtown Vancouver buses only grow by ~1,000 YoY at most.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The FVX currently gets less than 700 riders/day. How do you propose that 700 grows to 56,000 in less than fifty years? Even downtown Vancouver buses only grow by ~1,000 YoY at most.

How much has the Skytrain grown YoY?
Before Covid, how much did the WCE grow YoY?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

How much has the Skytrain grown YoY?
Before Covid, how much did the WCE grow YoY?

The WCE had grown by 700 riders/day YoY, so we can expect the FVX to top out around ~80 years from now at the earliest.

SkyTrains and RapidBuses run within cities as well as between them; you're comparing apples to oranges again. How much has the Highstreet/UFV route in Abbotsford grown YoY? How long until Highstreet gets a B-Line instead of just local buses? How long before that becomes its own Abbotsford metro network? That's the comparison you're looking for, not the FVX.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The WCE had grown by 700 riders/day YoY, so we can expect the FVX to top out around ~80 years from now at the earliest.

SkyTrains and RapidBuses run within cities as well as between them; you're comparing apples to oranges again. How much has the Highstreet/UFV route in Abbotsford grown YoY? How long until Highstreet gets a B-Line instead of just local buses? How long before that becomes its own Abbotsford metro network? That's the comparison you're looking for, not the FVX.

That answers for Abbotsford, but remember, it will not be a nonstop train to the final destination. What about Langley and Surrey? When do their express service to downtown start?

[Migrant_Coconut]

2028, when the Langley Extension opens. I've already posted the study: a grand total of 500 passengers want to go all the way from Fleetwood and Langley to Waterfront. The rest want access to Surrey, and Surrey wants access to Metrotown.

Seeing as the interurban would be 53 minutes from Scott Road to Langley, it's reasonable that a train following the CN route would take as long from Scott Road to Pacific Central. So you're actually losing time with the "express" train.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

2028, when the Langley Extension opens. I've already posted the study: a grand total of 500 passengers want to go all the way from Fleetwood and Langley to Waterfront. The rest want access to Surrey, and Surrey wants access to Metrotown.

Seeing as the interurban would be 53 minutes from Scott Road to Langley, it's reasonable that a train following the CN route would take as long from Scott Road to Pacific Central. So you're actually losing time with the "express" train.

The Regional Plan is to encourage less long-distance travel, and more local employment that allows shorter and more convenient commuting. That's why building a second Regional Town Centre in Surrey is important. It seems to be working; in 1971 21% of employed residents of Surrey worked in Vancouver. Each census since then it has fallen, so in 2016 only 11% of Surreys residents with jobs worked in Vancouver. In 1971 13% of Langley (City & Township) working residents travelled to Vancouver. By 2016 that was only 5%.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

2028, when the Langley Extension opens. I've already posted the study: a grand total of 500 passengers want to go all the way from Fleetwood and Langley to Waterfront. The rest want access to Surrey, and Surrey wants access to Metrotown.

Seeing as the interurban would be 53 minutes from Scott Road to Langley, it's reasonable that a train following the CN route would take as long from Scott Road to Pacific Central. So you're actually losing time with the "express" train.

So, when does Surrey and Langley get express buses to Waterfront? 500 people? That is at least 5-6 buses. When does that service start?

Originally Posted by Changing City

The Regional Plan is to encourage less long-distance travel, and more local employment that allows shorter and more convenient commuting. That's why building a second Regional Town Centre in Surrey is important. It seems to be working; in 1971 21% of employed residents of Surrey worked in Vancouver. Each census since then it has fallen, so in 2016 only 11% of Surreys residents with jobs worked in Vancouver. In 1971 13% of Langley (City & Township) working residents travelled to Vancouver. By 2016 that was only 5%.

So, those towers in downtown are all going to magically move to the regional town centre?

The coconut was going on about express buses and thinking they will be plenty. What I do not understand is why not have express routes downtown from each city?