YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by wabooba

Will another airline (presumably AC, maybe not) take up that route, or will YVR be without a nonstop to IAH during that hiatus?

Looks like there won't be any IAH flights during that period. But we're still in covid recovery, it doesn't make a huge difference.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by wabooba

Will another airline (presumably AC, maybe not) take up that route, or will YVR be without a nonstop to IAH during that hiatus?

Be without. No other airline as far as I’m aware serves YVR-IAH.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by hehehe

UA IAH ends in October and resumes in March. Staffing shortages?

Must be, it's still a big O&D market and the connections IAH offers to Latam are (or at least were) really good.

Austin and SLC also going seasonal. not surprised about Austin, seemed like a summer seasonal route to being with, but SLC is a weird one.

[s211]

Both AC and Westjet seem hell-bent to funnel Phoenix traffic through Calgary, versus direct from Vancouver. The price differential is remarkable. The non-direct through Calgary is roughly 40-45% of the non-stop. Even so, no thanks.

[nname]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Must be, it's still a big O&D market and the connections IAH offers to Latam are (or at least were) really good.

Austin and SLC also going seasonal. not surprised about Austin, seemed like a summer seasonal route to being with, but SLC is a weird one.

For SLC to just suspend for a bit over 2 months instead of the entire winter season, looks like crew or equipment availability issue rather than really cutting the route. The route will resume mid-December and currently scheduled for the rest of the winter season.

Originally Posted by s211

Both AC and Westjet seem hell-bent to funnel Phoenix traffic through Calgary, versus direct from Vancouver. The price differential is remarkable. The non-direct through Calgary is roughly 40-45% of the non-stop. Even so, no thanks.

This one just seems like the YVR flight are more full than the YYC one, so they want more connecting passengers to fill the plane.

Well, YYC to PHX have 4x daily flights, compared to 2x from YVR... so there is a lot more seats that need to be filled.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, YYC to PHX have 4x daily flights, compared to 2x from YVR... so there is a lot more seats that need to be filled.

I wonder why YYC to PHX would have double the number of flights from YVR I mean YVR is twice the size the of YYC (market size). Seems illogical to me.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by wabooba

I wonder why YYC to PHX would have double the number of flights from YVR I mean YVR is twice the size the of YYC (market size). Seems illogical to me.

I’m guess there are a lot more snowbirds/Arizona property owners in Alberta/prairies

[Johnny Aussie]

This is the stuff I like to see

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220908-sqns23yvr

Singapore Airlines this week extended Singapore – Vancouver nonstop service into Northern summer 2023 season, on/after 26MAR23. The schedule extension sees the Star Alliance member continues to operate 3 weekly flights, with 253-seater Airbus A350-900XWB aircraft. Reservation is now available.

SQ048 SIN0700 – 0645YVR 359 246
SQ047 YVR0835 – 1540+1SIN 359 246

[zahav]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

This is the stuff I like to see

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220908-sqns23yvr

Singapore Airlines this week extended Singapore – Vancouver nonstop service into Northern summer 2023 season, on/after 26MAR23. The schedule extension sees the Star Alliance member continues to operate 3 weekly flights, with 253-seater Airbus A350-900XWB aircraft. Reservation is now available.

SQ048 SIN0700 – 0645YVR 359 246
SQ047 YVR0835 – 1540+1SIN 359 246

Ahhh you beat me to it haha, I didn't see the Aeroroutes article, but I check Google Flights a lot and saw on Wedensday that Singapore was extended into summer. I have to say, I felt a surprsing amount of relief. Singapore Airlines is like a unicorn, it can be so elusive and you don't know how long it will be around. And the fact they have loaded updates in relatively small blocks (several months at a time only) always made me nervous. It's even more positive because they had other routes like SEA loaded into summer quite a while ago, so the fact they loaded YVR means they are likely satisfied with it. And 3x weekly is fine with me, it's probably just the right amount for now to let it mature.

Over on the Canada forum, they were talking about the Air Canada/Emirates partnership. I still find that a bit strange, I guess keep friends close and enemies closer? It's especially surprsing because they talked about the benefits of the onwards connections to India from DXB. But AC and AI fly to Canada, and AI has a massive domestic network in DEL. And they are *Alliance partners, I guess that means nothing anymore? I thought the point of these alliances was to foster cooperation between members. Yet AC is teaming up with Emirates for India expansion instead of Air India itself? Seems so odd to me. I know Emirates is a top class airline, but it's kind of a diss to Air India that their partner is using a non-alliance competitor out of the Middle East to serve India rather than an Indian airline in India?!

[nname]

Looks like Flair will base an extra half plane at YVR starting Dec 2022... so the number of plane based at YVR will be 4.5. It's only 0.5 because TUS operation will come from YVR-based plane. Wonder why didn't they just run it directly from YVR though...

Plane #1: YYC/YUL
Plane #2: YWG/YYC/YLW (135), LAS/PVR (2467)
Plane #3: YEG/YYC, and supporting YEG ops at 12456
Plane #4: LAX/AZA (15), LAX/PSP (36), SFO/SJD (247)
Plane #5: YXE/YKF (26), YEG and all TUS operations (13457)

All YYZ, YOW, and part of YKF are operated from foreign base.

Schedule from Jan and onward is pretty much still in the works, but looks like YVR will keep the fifth plane.

Flair's top current/future/temporary bases for the month of December by weekly departures:
YVR 88
YYZ 74
YEG 72
YYC 56
YXX 37
YKF 27
YOW 27

TUS 8

Even though YVR have the most departure, it doesn't have the most planes though. YYZ will have 5 planes based there at all days, as it is basically responsible for most of the trans-con flights so it takes a lot more equipment.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by zahav

.................. ........
Over on the Canada forum, they were talking about the Air Canada/Emirates partnership. I still find that a bit strange, I guess keep friends close and enemies closer? It's especially surprsing because they talked about the benefits of the onwards connections to India from DXB. But AC and AI fly to Canada, and AI has a massive domestic network in DEL. And they are *Alliance partners, I guess that means nothing anymore? I thought the point of these alliances was to foster cooperation between members. Yet AC is teaming up with Emirates for India expansion instead of Air India itself? Seems so odd to me. I know Emirates is a top class airline, but it's kind of a diss to Air India that their partner is using a non-alliance competitor out of the Middle East to serve India rather than an Indian airline in India?!

Considering the latter half of your post, this is something that has piqued my curiosity (or non-understanding of several things. Firstly why were Emirates denied YVR (and YYC) landing rights?
Emirates tried arm twisting* * * (see below) but was denied access anyway, so it went to Seattle, as everybody knows. Was the denial because they had cheap fuel (Dubai being a petro-ministate), and therefore
had the advantage of free or subsidized cost and therefore an unethical price/cost edge? so that they could undercut fare prices standardly charged in other airlines, most belonging to one club or another?
Secondly, was it because Transport Canada was afraid that EK at YVR and YYC would other airlines' flights and $$ "cannibalize," as seemingly had happened in the Australia to Europe flights, biting out chunks of Qantas (and others)?


NB(* * * I heard later that apparently, all the banging on the doors of YVR and YYC was posturing. All they wanted, it seems was daily or double daily to YYZ)


Finally, if in fact AC and EK form a deeper partnership, could that mean, if not EK, then DXB nonstop from YVR on AC? That's a key question, and if anybody knows, please tell me. Thank you all very much

[casper]

Originally Posted by wabooba

Considering the latter half of your post, this is something that has piqued my curiosity (or non-understanding of several things. Firstly why were Emirates denied YVR (and YYC) landing rights?
Emirates tried arm twisting* * * (see below) but was denied access anyway, so it went to Seattle, as everybody knows. Was the denial because they had cheap fuel (Dubai being a petro-ministate), and therefore
had the advantage of free or subsidized cost and therefore an unethical price/cost edge? so that they could undercut fare prices standardly charged in other airlines, most belonging to one club or another?
Secondly, was it because Transport Canada was afraid that EK at YVR and YYC would other airlines' flights and $$ "cannibalize," as seemingly had happened in the Australia to Europe flights, biting out chunks of Qantas (and others)?


NB(* * * I heard later that apparently, all the banging on the doors of YVR and YYC was posturing. All they wanted, it seems was daily or double daily to YYZ)


Finally, if in fact AC and EK form a deeper partnership, could that mean, if not EK, then DXB nonstop from YVR on AC? That's a key question, and if anybody knows, please tell me. Thank you all very much

Air India and Air Canada do code share with each other. So there is some partnership there Air Canada also code shares on Qatar Airlines.

Switching to EK...

Canada has long had a principle of providing preferential access to airlines serving their home market. There is very little traffic between Dubai (UAE) and Canada. The UAE - Canada market is served by two UAE airlines. From the Canadian perspective it has adequate service.

EK is not trying to serve the Canada and Dubai market. EK is trying to service the Canada - India and Canada - Pakistan market.

Canada would rather see increased access given to airlines based in India and Pakistan as well as Canada to serve those routes over a third country.

EK then had a fit and convinced the UAE government to have a fit. The UAE government started playing games, with access into a Canadian military base in the region. UAE burnt bridges in the process.

There are some stores around that Canada offered UAE the option to add capcity into Vancouver and the UAE was only interested in Toronto and Montreal. True? Who knows.

The other factor to keep in mind is when the countries negotiate these deal the agreement is not airline specific. Each country gets to select how it divides up the slots between its airlines. Canada has nominated Air Canada. The UAE has split its slots between EK and Etihad.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by casper

Air India and Air Canada do code share with each other. So there is some partnership there Air Canada also code shares on Qatar Airlines.

Switching to EK...

Canada has long had a principle of providing preferential access to airlines serving their home market. There is very little traffic between Dubai (UAE) and Canada. The UAE - Canada market is served by two UAE airlines. From the Canadian perspective it has adequate service.

EK is not trying to serve the Canada and Dubai market. EK is trying to service the Canada - India and Canada - Pakistan market.

Canada would rather see increased access given to airlines based in India and Pakistan as well as Canada to serve those routes over a third country.

... Fifth Freedoms? ...

EK then had a fit and convinced the UAE government to have a fit. The UAE government started playing games, with access into a Canadian military base in the region. UAE burnt bridges in the process.

There are some stores around that Canada offered UAE the option to add capcity into Vancouver and the UAE was only interested in Toronto and Montreal. True? Who knows.

The other factor to keep in mind is when the countries negotiate these deal the agreement is not airline specific. Each country gets to select how it divides up the slots between its airlines. Canada has nominated Air Canada. The UAE has split its slots between EK and Etihad.

Casper, thanks so much for the precise, step-by-step manner of your explanation. I understand it all much better, thanks to you.
OK, the final question: Is a YVR - UAE direct flight unlikely in the short term,
or possible, or fairly probable, or ruled out, and if at all possible, by which airline, would you think, possibly starting when? Hey, thanks again.

[casper]

Originally Posted by wabooba

Casper, thanks so much for the precise, step-by-step manner of your explanation. I understand it all much better, thanks to you.
OK, the final question: Is a YVR - UAE direct flight unlikely in the short term,
or possible, or fairly probable, or ruled out, and if at all possible, by which airline, would you think, possibly starting when? Hey, thanks again.

Here is the legal agreement (the interesting part is in the annex) ....
https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=104312

The UAE government has rights for 6 flights per week. Between EK and Etihad they are all in use.

Canada can 6 flights per week. Currently it has designated AC. I don't think AC is using all of them. WestJet has tried to get slots at Dubai airport, however they have never actually operated the flight.

I would be surprised if its a priority for Canada to expand the agreement with the UAE.

In comparison under the Canada-EU agreement, European airlines, WestJet and Air Canada can operate an unlimited number of flights between Canada and Europe. No government limit, however Air France and KLM can't attract sufficient volume to justify going daily year round.

[nname]

That was an old version of agreement. It had since being updated to 10x weekly with no more than 5x per airline. And from the current schedule, look like it had been updated to 12x/6x?

But since the government no longer publish the detail of those agreements, I'm not sure what's the current capacity limit. But they are definitely running at or very close to the current limit right now.

Originally Posted by casper

In comparison under the Canada-EU agreement, European airlines, WestJet and Air Canada can operate an unlimited number of flights between Canada and Europe. No government limit, however Air France and KLM can't attract sufficient volume to justify going daily year round.

For KLM's case, the Dutch government is imposing limit on the traffic in and out of AMS, so that too will affect how much service they can fly even though there are no bilateral limit.

Many other EU airport (LHR for example) are heavily slot restricted, which put a limit of how much service an airline can provide by landing rights at the airport.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

This is the stuff I like to see

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220908-sqns23yvr

Singapore Airlines this week extended Singapore – Vancouver nonstop service into Northern summer 2023 season, on/after 26MAR23. The schedule extension sees the Star Alliance member continues to operate 3 weekly flights, with 253-seater Airbus A350-900XWB aircraft. Reservation is now available.

SQ048 SIN0700 – 0645YVR 359 246
SQ047 YVR0835 – 1540+1SIN 359 246

From another forum, looks like SQ finally decided to add YVR to it's permanent year-round destination? Let's see if they will finally add a "Vancouver" destination page in their website...

[whatnext]

Apparently security lines at YVR were very long again today with people missing flights.

[Calfan12]

Lynx Air adding Edmonton YEG to Vancouver YVR route ,3x weekly start from end of October & 5x weekly from mid December 2022.

And basically the temporary suspensions of Calgary YYC /YVR - Kelowna YLW & along with reduces for YVR - Winnipeg YWG 2x weekly on Lynx Domestic routes,made it possible for them to start up a YEG -YVR flights from October 31.
__________________________________________________________
Canadian ultra-low-cost carrier Lynx Air at the launch of Northern winter 2022/23 season is adding Vancouver – Edmonton route, operating 3 times weekly. Service to commence on 31OCT22, with Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft.

Y9517 YVR0800 – 1040YEG 7M8 135
Y9516 YEG1120 – 1215YVR 7M8 135

Service will increase to 5 weekly from 12DEC22 (Day x26).

For Vancouver, the airline is adjusting operations during Northern winter 2022/23 season:
Vancouver – Kelowna 16OCT22 – 15DEC22 2 weekly service suspended (The airline will also temporarily suspend Calgary – Kelowna route 15OCT22 – 15DEC22)
Vancouver – Winnipeg eff 30OCT22 Reduces from 4 weekly in summer to 2 weekly

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220914-y9nw22yvr

[thenoflyzone]

AC YVR-DEL no longer bookable. I'm really surprised by this. Surely the 77L can make this route work. I guess AC calculates that the detour around Russia is killing yields, even on the 77L.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220914-acoct22del

Originally Posted by casper

Here is the legal agreement (the interesting part is in the annex) ....


The UAE government has rights for 6 flights per week. Between EK and Etihad they are all in use.

The new bilateral, signed in 2018, is now seat limited.

Apparently EK leaves seats open on their A380 to YYZ, in order to meet the seat limit. It's also why they are 5x weekly, while EY to AUH is 6x weekly to YYZ.

From my understanding, all carriers, EK (5x weekly A380), EY (6x weekly B789/B77W) and soon AC, when they upgauge to 6x weekly B789, will be at the seat limit. There is only room for a new Canadian carrier like WS to enter the market, that's it.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

.......
From my understanding, all carriers, EK (5x weekly A380), EY (6x weekly B789/B77W) and soon AC, when they upgauge to 6x weekly B789, will be at the seat limit. There is only room for a new Canadian carrier like WS to enter the market, that's it.

If it's Westjet, that would be from Calgary, I presume. It looks as if YVR will never get a direct flight to the Gulf States, which is a shame, considering the large Pakistani population here.
Also if Air India is being cut off, that makes it a long and inconvenient haul. Please correct me if I'm wrong.