YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Johnny Aussie]

^ also looking the other way. YVR has Asia/Pacific so strongly covered and comparable to almost every other NA city despite its size but of course has a good geographic advantage here.
And then trofirhen of course chimes in hahaha.

[twoNeurons]

Awww... trofirhen ain't so bad.

On the topic of YVR-KIX (Osaka), I wonder if AC is trying to tap into US O&D travel. KIX only has SFO as a Mainland US connection with Star Alliance, so there's a decent chance that some Americans would choose to fly through YVR... especially places like DEN or ORD... where they're going to require a connection anyhow... and it would involve an airport change in Tokyo.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy about the flight, but I'm curious as to AC's thinking on the flight given that KIX is kind of becoming a regional hub as the city is more popular with East Asians.

In the meantime, I've booked 3 seats next July. Hopefully the flight's not cancelled.

edit: Osaka really illustrates how much YVR punches above its weight, by the way.

YVR serves as the international airport for ~3.4M in the Coastal BC region... and yet serves
~15 Asian cities
~4 in Oceania
~9 in Europe

By contrast, the Kansai region has 22M people, (and also serves Kobe, Nara, and Kyoto) and outside of East Asia
~4 European cities
~3 in Oceania
~3 in North America

A population of that many people should have an airport that serves more locations, but as it stands now, for MANY destinations, people usually fly through NRT/HND or ICN. Sure, KIX serves about ~20 or so Asian cities (short/medium haul)... but YVR serves about that many in the USA as well (or more)

The difference is quite stark.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by wabooba

I appreciate your analysis of the situation, particularly YVR's main competition being YYZ and YUL.
First off, as you say, YVR and China are joined at the hip, and that's the only reason YVR overtook YUL as Canada's second-busiest airport. And yes, the Chinese cutbacks have affected YVR deeply.

I'm glad at least someone on here appreciates my posts.

Some people have a hard time hearing the truth. But I'm the insecure one, apparently. Pages and pages of YVR vs YYC, and yet one murmur of YYZ or YUL, and it's pitchfork protest time....

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Airports are always competing against each other trying to gain services. It’s very relevant.
And geographically very relevant as well.
I am clearly pointing out the pattern of what’s developed over the last year.
YVR making solid gains and definitely in a different league.
I disagree though, YEG is definitely not punching above its weight

At the same time YYC is not competing for the same flights as YVR, ie YYC is not getting IST anytime soon lol. It's the same as saying YYC and YXE are competing for flights-to a certain extent they are but they're in such different leagues they're both kind of doing their own thing. You can't compare YYC's performance to an airport like YVR's.

For a smaller airport like YYC there's only so much they can have. Getting more flights on WS means not having international carriers. But that isn't a bad thing. It's just the way things are.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Osaka really illustrates how much YVR punches above its weight, by the way.

Great visualization, as I had not realized how internationally underserved Osaka is for being a huge megacity. I guess that's what happens when you are just too close and well-connected to world's largest megalopolis. Still, it is very surprising that foreign carriers have not served KIX more. Not sure how limited and regulated Japanese flight slots are, probably very.

[nname]

Originally Posted by wabooba

First off, as you say, YVR and China are joined at the hip, and that's the only reason YVR overtook YUL as Canada's second-busiest airport. And yes, the Chinese cutbacks have affected YVR deeply.

No, the only reason YVR is the second-busiest airport is because the domestic traffic for YUL is quite weak. There is a huge gap for YUL to make up in that area.

If you exclude transborder flight, YUL always have better international passenger than YVR. YVR have better domestic and transborder numbers, and the pandemic, China, and Asia does not change that.

If you exclude all passengers to/from China from the YVR stat before the pandemic, YVR is still the second busiest airport in Canada. YUL is not even close.

Originally Posted by Klazu

Great visualization, as I had not realized how internationally underserved Osaka is for being a huge megacity. I guess that's what happens when you are just too close and well-connected to world's largest megalopolis. Still, it is very surprising that foreign carriers have not served KIX more. Not sure how limited and regulated Japanese flight slots are, probably very.

Airlines in Japan only really cares about putting long-haul services from Tokyo. Every other major cities like KIX, NGO, FUK, CTS gets pretty much nothing.

If someone complains YYT needs to backtrack to YUL/YYZ to go to Europe, then check out CTS and their long-haul service. That's for a city of about 2 million....

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by nname

No, the only reason YVR is the second-busiest airport is because the domestic traffic for YUL is quite weak. There is a huge gap for YUL to make up in that area.

If you exclude transborder flight, YUL always have better international passenger than YVR. YVR have better domestic and transborder numbers, and the pandemic, China, and Asia does not change that.

If you exclude all passengers to/from China from the YVR stat before the pandemic, YVR is still the second busiest airport in Canada. YUL is not even close.

Thank you for that information. It shows the danger of jumping to conclusions, although I did know that YUL was lagging behind YYZ (of course) and YVR in domestic pax, although not to the extent that it is.
It did surprise me when you said that YVR had better transborder numbers than YUL. I looked on 'flight connections' and they seem to have about the same number of US destinations. But I would have thought (wrongly) that being that much bigger city than Vancouver, Montreal would have larger US pax numbers, but surprisingly not. That YUL is so solidly in third place surprises me.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by wabooba

Thank you for that information. It shows the danger of jumping to conclusions, although I did know that YUL was lagging behind YYZ (of course) and YVR in domestic pax, although not to the extent that it is.
It did surprise me when you said that YVR had better transborder numbers than YUL. I looked on 'flight connections' and they seem to have about the same number of US destinations. But I would have thought (wrongly) that being that much bigger city than Vancouver, Montreal would have larger US pax numbers, but surprisingly not. That YUL is so solidly in third place surprises me.

Actually in 2021 YUL was 4th
https://www.statista.com/statistics/544051/canadian-airports-passenger-traffic/

[Johnny Aussie]

Well now that’s all settled.
I was going to add KIX and NGO have always struggled garnering any sort of decent long-haul international networks. Especially NGO. Just too close to the TYO powerhouse despite their size and economic clout!
In any event it’s excellent having YVR-KIX back next year. YVR-NGO most likely way down the road if ever again.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

In any event it’s excellent having YVR-KIX back next year. YVR-NGO most likely way down the road if ever again.

Even less likely to get NGO again after maybe 5 years. After all, Nagoya will be just 40min train ride away from Tokyo...

[nname]

Looks like AC is turning YVR-AUS into seasonal service, with last flight on Oct 3.

Now AC would have 4x weekly unused slots on 1235. Would they move it to another route? Or they will make further cut on 467?

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by nname

Looks like AC is turning YVR-AUS into seasonal service, with last flight on Oct 3.

Now AC would have 4x weekly unused slots on 1235. Would they move it to another route? Or they will make further cut on 467?

So successful enough to keep it seasonal, but not successful enough for it to be year round. I'm sure there's another route that would be able to use those slots.

[zahav]

Austin being seasonal makes sense, it isn't like LAX, SFO, or ORD in terms of being a hub. And it isn't like HNL, PSP, PHX. or MIA as a strong winter leisure destination. I always thought it was going to be seasonal, so was surprised when they loaded year round. Seasonal does the trick.

On the international front, of course losing China traffic has been a big hit. But all other markets, including in Asia, are doing surprisingly well. Especially compared to lots of other airports around the world. Even with China, YVR is comparatively strong on a worldwide basis, albeit it's a small amount. But it's not like it's a drop in demand causing it, it is the strict rules imposed by China. So essentially we are strong everywhere else, and only weak in the market that is closed off. Other cities have lost routes based on demand, or because they just don't make the cut when airlines have to make tough decisions about how to allocate routes. That is not the case at YVR, it's strong across the board except to the one country that has strict rules, and even then it's one of the busiest international routes.

And it's interesting that people seem so outraged about YVR comparing to YYC. I don't think it's that wild of a comparison. YYC has a much bigger network to the Caribbean than us (thanks to WS), and has a strong European network too (with destinations we don't have!). So I don't think it's totally unreasonable to monitor and compare what they are doing. They are a powerhouse, so it's not like YVR comparing itself to YLW and bragging... The fact is, Calgary's international service has been cut a lot, by big airlines like BA, HU, and AC to NRT. I am certainly not piling on them, that's not the point, but the idea that posters here making comparisons is unfair is not correct, it's a valid comparison to make.

And while we're at it, YYZ has arguably suffered more than YVR in terms of cuts. They too are resticted to China, and have less flights than YVR. They're also losing El Al entirely. Flair is larger from YVR. AC is not proceeding with BOM until next summer, even thought they announced it's resumption along with YVR-BKK (yes this is due to Russian airspace, but still). AC also scrapped Milan, and moved it to YUL. Bucharest and Budapest are not being operated at all anymore, and AC used to (and Malev used to servce Budapest as well). WS has cut back hugely in YYZ, to the point that YVR will actually have more weekly departures from YVR than YYZ this winter (that would have been unheard of in 2019). Encore is basically being stripped down to nothing. And BA will have more seats from YVR than YYZ, again something that was unheard of in years past. This is not meant to diss YYZ, same as the YYC comments, it's just for context. We all know these airports are all very different, and have different market strengths. The comparisons are not meant to imply we're all the same, but just to see what's happening at out peer large airports...

So all this talk about BA decimating it's YVR service should be taken in context of their schedules at the other airports, where it's cut back more than YVR. So comparatively, we're not doing bad.

[Denscity]

Wow Vancouver with more seats on British Airways than Toronto!

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by zahav

And it's interesting that people seem so outraged about YVR comparing to YYC. I don't think it's that wild of a comparison. YYC has a much bigger network to the Caribbean than us (thanks to WS), and has a strong European network too (with destinations we don't have!). So I don't think it's totally unreasonable to monitor and compare what they are doing. They are a powerhouse, so it's not like YVR comparing itself to YLW and bragging... The fact is, Calgary's international service has been cut a lot, by big airlines like BA, HU, and AC to NRT. I am certainly not piling on them, that's not the point, but the idea that posters here making comparisons is unfair is not correct, it's a valid comparison to make.

So all this talk about BA decimating it's YVR service should be taken in context of their schedules at the other airports, where it's cut back more than YVR. So comparatively, we're not doing bad.

Overall a very good analysis and I agree with most of it.

Yes comparing YVR to YYC - It’s outrageous!

And a lot of the so called “bragging rights” with all the international numbers being thrown around is due to the huge amount of sun flying at other airports.
Of course people are going to flee places that freeze over for 4-5 months of the year. YVR does have a decent amount of sun flights too but certainly much less on a per capita basis I would guess.
However, when it comes to global international reach YVR is punching way above its weight - especially for a relatively small city on the far flung west coast.

Let’s be clear though, BA is adding capacity and frequencies at YVR next summer (and even compared to seven years ago)
Those that want to compare before 2016 are just dwelling in the past. Well… it’s allegedly only one person who is fixated on what happened 7 years ago from what I have seen quoted. Hardly a decimation when BA will be flying ~ 700-800 more seats per week compared to the last 7 years! And all the actual cutbacks in many other cities as mentioned.
And once again, they could have restarted YYC but instead decided to add these new flights at YVR.

[zahav]

Exactly Johnny Aussie, comparison to many years past is not appropriate. I of course would still love the A380 to come, but if it isn't, then at least 2x daily is a good consolation. As I said before, they could have just downgauged the equipment without the added frequency, so the fact they add LGW shouldn't be taken as a negative. As others have said, if BA has seen a decrease in connecting pax due to us finally having India and ME service (Turkish), then I am happy about that. Having Delhi and Istanbul are better in my opinion than propping up LHR connections. The fact they might be seeing less connecting demand due to our new non stop India and ME service but still have demand and are launching a new route (LGW) is a positive. Anyone saying otherwise is just a naysayer (ahem, noflyzone..). I don't know why he's even bothered, YUL is doing well itself, and now more than ever is pretty much in direct competition with YYZ and not YVR, so not sure where the saltiness comes from

[Denscity]

He is a very insecure guy. And the YUL thread is one of the deadest on SSP.
Maybe the insecurity comes from the fact that Montreal has been surpassed in every possible category by Toronto and now Vancouver has a larger port, busier airport, and most recently more towers than Montreal.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Overall a very good analysis and I agree with most of it.

Yes comparing YVR to YYC - It’s outrageous!

And a lot of the so called “bragging rights” with all the international numbers being thrown around is due to the huge amount of sun flying at other airports.
Of course people are going to flee places that freeze over for 4-5 months of the year. YVR does have a decent amount of sun flights too but certainly much less on a per capita basis I would guess.
However, when it comes to global international reach YVR is punching way above its weight - especially for a relatively small city on the far flung west coast.

Let’s be clear though, BA is adding capacity and frequencies at YVR next summer (and even compared to seven years ago)
Those that want to compare before 2016 are just dwelling in the past. Well… it’s allegedly only one person who is fixated on what happened 7 years ago from what I have seen quoted. Hardly a decimation when BA will be flying ~ 700-800 more seats per week compared to the last 7 years! And all the actual cutbacks in many other cities as mentioned.
And once again, they could have restarted YYC but instead decided to add these new flights at YVR.

I mean nothing I've said has indicated I'm outraged about it, I'm just making a point. With regard to foreign airlines YVR will always come before YYC because of higher yields and demand. YVR can have a lot of foreign airlines and a large hub operation, but a small market like YYC can only really have one. And it sucks for them to lose BA, HU, AM, DE etc but that also comes with having an extensive NA network and CDG/DUB/FCO etc.

[hehehe]

UA IAH ends in October and resumes in March. Staffing shortages?

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by hehehe

UA IAH ends in October and resumes in March. Staffing shortages?

Will another airline (presumably AC, maybe not) take up that route, or will YVR be without a nonstop to IAH during that hiatus?