Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I don't want to be a troll here, but it still feels like the Anglo-Saxon culture has a serious complex or problem with any fucking thing related to anything slightly or remotely French.

What the hell?

Either they sort of idealize and worship us as if we were some kind of exceptionally sophisticated people, that we can be at times, but not always.
Or they hate us as if we were their worst rival in goddamn History.
Yep, the English never could take control of mainland Europe thanks to the French.
So what? Our ancestors defended themselves and were right.
What's wrong with that?

Did you hear what the new UK prime minister stated when she was asked whether the Fr prez was a friend or a foe?

• Video Link

Everybody laughed over here, like - ahhh, those good old English... They'll never change. Always the same.

Somehow, bashing the French still earns you some votes out there, especially when it comes to their Conservative party.

But you know what? Bashing the English no longer makes any single vote here in France.
It's like most the French don't even mind any longer about the UK. They simply don't care.
Bah ouais, that's very harsh, I know. Indifference and lack of interest are the worst, bitchiest thing, right?
But that's the way it is over here now.

Now, I think Quebecers need to both speak English and defend our language in North America, because that makes us unique and cooler.
English in business, faithful to French in love and anything else. Faithful to our language whatever it takes! That's a very feasible thing.

We can deal with the Anglo culture anyway. No problem. It's not too hard to understand, really.

In the case of Canada there is also a bit of the "manifest destinty" thrown into the mix due to being on the North America continent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny

It's very much a US concept but it seeps into Canada to some degree with for example the notion that while the population is going to be diverse, the English language - and to some degree the cultural norms associated with it - are to be the glue that holds it all together across a vast land.

Obviously this is not only or even primarily the view of British origin North Americans at this point, as tens of millions of people of every ethnicity imaginable have also bought into it and made it their own ethos.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by JHikka

"It's ok for us to discriminate today because we've been discriminated in the past."

lol I thought the Liojack is staunchly opposed to affirmative action!

Originally Posted by Acajack

If Quebec black society had not been sabotaged and weakened by that country for much of our their history, and the governance structure more in tune with our their needs, then the measures you I hate would not be needed.

So I'm assuming we won't be hearing any more from you about the evils of CRT and school quotas?

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You and he are mostly right, but it doesn't take much for the dominant mix of benign indifference and incomprehension to periodically morph into hostility.

I mean we see it on this forum all the time.

The internet and its anonymity make this possible. Get us all into a room and I bet the loudmouths would change their tune.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Formerly robust rural farming communities are dying an increasingly rapid death and it feels sad (to some); most people however don't feel sadness at this loss. At best, there is indifference. The usual response is a shrug" could easily apply to, say, Saskatchewan. This general phenomenon is definitely not specific to Quebec.

You could have used New Brunswick as well to keep it more in line with language. It is evident that MonctonRad do not care at all about what is happening with the decreasing francophone population there. He also seems to be quite proud that the current NB premier and its party was elected without the support of the Francophone minority. He keeps bringing that up all the time and seem quite happy with francophone diminished influence. This is why all his attacks on rural anglophones in Quebec are so pointless.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

lol I thought the Liojack is staunchly opposed to affirmative action!



So I'm assuming we won't be hearing any more from you about the evils of CRT and school quotas?

I was actually in favour (and still am) of the pre-woke affirmative action measures that were in place in the US and the ones that more or less mirror them in Canada.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by vanatox

You could have used New Brunswick as well to keep it more in line with language. It is evident that MonctonRad do not care at all about what is happening with the decreasing francophone population there. He also seems to be quite proud that the current NB premier and its party was elected without the support of the Francophone minority. He keeps bringing that up all the time and seem quite happy with francophone diminished influence. This is why all his attacks on rural anglophones in Quebec are so pointless.

I am just observant of the fact that Acadians are no longer necessary to assure majority governance (at least on the part of the Progressive Conservatives). Acajack tends to be equally observant of the facts on the ground in Quebec. I express no more glee on the basis of my observations than he does based on his Quebec observations.

The Acadian population in NB is well protected by the Canadian constitution. There are several areas in the province (sizeable ones) where English is a foreign language.

The anglophones in Quebec do not have anywhere near the constitutional protection of the Acadians, and, the English language community is continually being actively threatened by the Quebec provincial government. Even Blaine Higgs in NB has in no way actively threatened the Acadians.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I see formerly robust rural anglophone farming communities dying an increasingly rapid death and feel sad. This is what my sister and brother in law experienced in Quebec as they saw their church congregations wither and die before their eyes.

Most Quebecois however don't feel sadness at this loss. At best, there is indifference. The usual response is a shrug and a grin. Le Quebec pour Quebecoise after all.........

At the risk of being crass, I must ask ‘So what?’

The end of Anglo villages in Quebec isn’t The Last of the Mohicans. Life changes, places change, and keeping things trapped in amber is just another method of fossilization.

Lack of change is more the danger, and for all the messiness, having certain people of one type on one side of the line and the others on the other is just more conducive to amicable relationships.

C’est la vie.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was actually in favour (and still am) of the pre-woke affirmative action measures that were in place in the US and the ones that more or less mirror them in Canada.

Lol, the number of times you decry those measures as "positive discrimination" betray that claim. What's woke anyway? The only people more MAGA than you and Lio in the CE section is bnk, SLO, DC, etc

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by thewave46

At the risk of being crass, I must ask ‘So what?’

The end of Anglo villages in Quebec isn’t The Last of the Mohicans. Life changes, places change, and keeping things trapped in amber is just another method of fossilization.

Lack of change is more the danger, and for all the messiness, having certain people of one type on one side of the line and the others on the other is just more conducive to amicable relationships.

C’est la vie.

^true enough. One could apply the same argument about inevitability to the Francophone minority in Canada. This to me would be a shame to lose. These communities are where the true interactions often take place. They are, in a sense, ambassadors of their cultures to the 'Other'.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I don't want to be a troll here, but it still feels like the Anglo-Saxon culture has a serious complex or problem with any fucking thing related to anything slightly or remotely French.

What the hell?

What do you expect of the originating citizens of the former British Empire? I mean, really?

They still ride the memories of that Empire on the coattails of the Americans. Won the wars, and all that. That doesn’t just stop one day, even if the island is the last castle.

More mind-boggling: Expecting their descendants the world around just ditch the deep-ingrained mindset of ‘We won, so now we call the shots’ within a handful of decades. Oh, the equality schtick is useful and prevents the worst aspects from coming out, if only somewhat grudgingly adopted as a new ethos.

These things are deeply worn into the soul. I fail to see how any group of evolved monkeys could not end up this way when history did what it did.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

move or fully assimilate into the francophone community. The latter will result in a loss of their identity.

How can there be a loss of identity when they are surrounded by Anglophone medias pretty much everywhere, and the US border is what, 30 minutes drive from where they live? It's a bit preposterous to say that in a continent like North America any Anglophone could be "losing their (linguistic) identity".

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

^true enough. One could apply the same argument about inevitability to the Francophone minority in Canada. This to me would be a shame to lose. These communities are where the true interactions often take place. They are, in a sense, ambassadors of their cultures to the 'Other'.

The lines were imperfectly drawn where they were. Hopefully, it serves as a bulwark and enough of a line for a united polity, or at least makes the divorce process somewhat less messy.

Cultures that want to interact will. All the better if they can do it on their own terms.

[harls]

Here's an anecdote -

I have 2 kids, they have a Québécoise mother. They are fully bilingual, go to French schools, have no accents when they switch from French to English. I went to Manitoba a couple of weeks ago. On the plane, I watched my kids use the in-flight entertainment.. they ask you what language you want. English, of course.

My kids hate French tv. It's pretty sad because I discovered a lot of great Québec TV shows as a blockhead.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by harls

The internet and its anonymity make this possible. Get us all into a room and I bet the loudmouths would change their tune.

Mhm, you probably would change yours. That could be funny.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

But it goes the other way too (i.e., there is no good food in England, The Brits are preoccupied with money and status, the evils of "Anglo-saxon capitalism", etc.).

The "no good food in the UK", yes (although it's a pure statement of fact, isn't it? ), but "Brits are preoccupied with money and status", no, I've never read that in French the press or heard it on French TV. As for the "evil of Anglo-Saxon capitalism", it's more to do with the US than with the UK. As Mousquet said, apart from the silly chronicle of the British royal family, the French otherwise don't care all that much about the UK, and don't follow their politics. Even during the Brexit drama, and despite being the closest neighbor of the UK (along with the Republic of Ireland), French media devoted less space to Brexit than other European media.

Another good indicator: how often do you hear French people in real life talk about the Brits? Almost never. Whereas in England you do hear people in real life talking about the French all the time (once in the locker room of a gym in the City of London, I overheard a conversation between 2 guys in their late 20s, white collar types, who were saying the most hateful and scornful things about the French in a completely cool and matter-of-fact tone, as if it was a completely obvious thing, something along the lines of the French never work and their economy sucks, or something like that). You could never hear a conversation about English people or their economy in the locker room of a French gym, that would be just bizarre.

[harls]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Mhm, you probably would change yours. That could be funny.

?

Nope.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The "no good food in the UK", yes (although it's a pure statement of fact, isn't it? ), but "Brits are preoccupied with money and status", no, I've never read that in French the press or heard it on French TV. As for the "evil of Anglo-Saxon capitalism", it's more to do with the US than with the UK. As Mousquet said, apart from the silly chronicle of the British royal family, the French otherwise don't care all that much about the UK, and don't follow their politics. Even during the Brexit drama, and despite being the closest neighbor of the UK (along with the Republic of Ireland), French media devoted less space to Brexit than other European media.

Another good indicator: how often do you hear French people in real life talk about the Brits? Almost never. Whereas in England you do hear people in real life talking about the French all the time (once in the locker room of a gym in the City of London, I overheard a conversation between 2 guys in their late 20s, white collar types, who were saying the most hateful and scornful things about the French in a completely cool and matter-of-fact tone, as if it was a completely obvious thing, something along the lines of the French never work and their economy sucks, or something like that). You could never hear a conversation about English people or their economy in the locker room of a French gym, that would be just bizarre.

fair enough. we all have our anecdotes. I recall that on my last visit to Paris, while speaking English to my wife on the metro, there were two occasions when a guy came right up to me and started bellowing (in French) all these anti-American sentiments and derogatory insults about the character of English people. Both times, switching to French, I coolly replied that I was Canadian--in fact, a native of Quebec--and that he could go and eat shit. I lived and worked in Marseilles for periods over several years, and while commuting on the bus I regularly heard people saying incredibly rude things about British (And even worse, Germans). My colleague, who is Bavarian-born (fluent in French) and who works at one of the local universities, told me many stories about local people saying things (right to his face) like "Only a German could be so stupid"

At Naples Airport once, a few years ago, I was in the line waiting to check in for a flight back to Canada. The wickets were unmanned, despite the fact that our flight was scheduled to leave in less than 30 minutes (We had been waiting for hours). My family was expressing anxiety at the situation, and the guy in front of me turned around and stated, very loudly, that this was the problem with the whole country. That nothing ever went on time, that nothing ever worked, that nobody gave a shit about this, and that things would never, ever change. He had lived in the Naples for years...He ran the American Military base in Naples (NSA Naples).

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by harls

Here's an anecdote -

I have 2 kids, they have a Québécoise mother. They are fully bilingual, go to French schools, have no accents when they switch from French to English. I went to Manitoba a couple of weeks ago. On the plane, I watched my kids use the in-flight entertainment.. they ask you what language you want. English, of course.

My kids hate French tv. It's pretty sad because I discovered a lot of great Québec TV shows as a blockhead.

Ironically, the Anglo-American cultural/internet steamroller has come full circle and now anyone in North America can access top of the line French TV on Netflix.

If you’re not a French speaker, French culture - at least the stuff that’s exported - is decidedly poor at appealing to young people. It’s definitely not Japan, Korea or the United States in that regard. I’m sure there’s a lot of youth-focused pop culture in France and Quebec but it doesn’t travel well.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's a question of rapport de force I suppose. If push came to shove, you can bet a Canadian PM would agree to a citoyenneté québécoise to prevent outright independence of Québec.

If it came down to that choice, I'd support the independence of Quebec over giving up freedom of movement.

[mousquet]

Except for some news talk shows that I watch depending on the topic, I haven't watched TV in ages.
I can't even tell what they do these days here in France. I hear people talk about it, that deters me from watching, lol.
I don't watch HBO or Netflix TV series either because they feel way too long.
Even most Hollywood movies feel helpless, no matter the amount of money they spend to produce them.

It seems that TV is definitely boring anyhow, for bored lazy teenagers.