Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You and he are mostly right, but it doesn't take much for the dominant mix of benign indifference and incomprehension to periodically morph into hostility.

I mean we see it on this forum all the time.

I generally have no ill will against francophones speaking their language and maintaining their culture. They are a founding people of our nation. This is their right.

Similarly, government services and institutions should be able to provide reasonable services to the francophone population. Again, this is their right.

I tend to draw the line however when laws are passed to support the francophone population which are either intentionally or unintentionally discriminatory to anglophones, including distressed anglophone minority communities in Quebec.

Anglophone communities in Quebec (hors Montreal et Gatineau) are already on the ropes. Many Quebec francophones would prefer that they didn't exist at all and are eager to assist the remaining rural anglophones into oblivion.

This is what makes me angry. Anger leads to frustration and the occasional outburst on SSP.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I generally have no ill will against francophones speaking their language and maintaining their culture. They are a founding people of our nation. This is their right.

Similarly, government services and institutions should be able to provide reasonable services to the francophone population. Again, this is their right.

I tend to draw the line however when laws are passed to support the francophone population which are either intentionally or unintentionally discriminatory to anglophones, including distressed anglophone minority communities in Quebec.

Anglophone communities in Quebec (hors Montreal et Gatineau) are already on the ropes. Many Quebec francophones would prefer that they didn't exist at all and are eager to assist the remaining rural anglophones into oblivion.

This is what makes me angry. Anger leads to frustration and the occasional outburst on SSP.

I think it's worth it to point out that the decline of certain anglophone communities in Quebec is generally not due to them assimilating to the local francophone majority.

It is due to self-directed out-migration. Mostly because they'd prefer to not live in a place where they have to buy their groceries in French and have their kids play hockey in French.

I don't know that it's reasonable for very predominantly francophone communities to fundamentally change the way they do things in order to accommodate this desire and keep more of their anglophone communities around for the long term.

This contrasts with francophone communities outside Quebec which are often in decline, but this is mostly not due to francophones moving out, but rather francophones staying put but becoming anglophones intergenerationally.

(Most francophones outside Quebec don't have an issue interacting with the wider community in English most of the time.)

There are a number of places like Timmins or Cornwall where probably a majority of residents have francophone surnames but it's far from half of the population that you'll hear speaking French when you're there.

When my kids were younger we were very active in tournaments and competitions, and French surnames were very common among our competitors from eastern and northern Ontario, but you'd only rarely hear kids from those clubs speaking French amongst themselves.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think it's worth it to point out that the decline of certain anglophone communities in Quebec is generally not due to them assimilating to the local francophone majority.

It is due to self-directed out-migration. Mostly because they'd prefer to not live in a place where they have to buy their groceries in French and have their kids play hockey in French.

Rural outmigration occurs for many reasons. In much of the country this is for economic reasons and a desire to seek better opportunity in the country's cities. Amongst rural anglophones in Quebec, this is compounded by the general decline of the anglophone communities themselves. Young anglophones in the townships look around, see that their community is in terminal decline, and see that they will have to make a choice - move or fully assimilate into the francophone community. The latter will result in a loss of their identity. Because of this, they often chose to move.

The francophone intelligentsia in Quebec City and French language activists in the rest of the province stand back, see this and offer no sympathy, only thunderous applause.

I see formerly robust rural anglophone farming communities dying an increasingly rapid death and feel sad. This is what my sister and brother in law experienced in Quebec as they saw their church congregations wither and die before their eyes.

Most Quebecois however don't feel sadness at this loss. At best, there is indifference. The usual response is a shrug and a grin. Le Quebec pour Quebecoise after all.........

MolsonExport knows what I mean. Although he lives in Ontario now, he is a proud Quebecer. He is a Quebecer, but, because of his roots, he will never be Quebecois. This has to have an effect on your psyche,

[kool maudit]

If I could snap my fingers and somehow cause the Quebec Anglo community to return to its height of influence and demographic weight, I would have to a proportional degree imperiled the French fact in North America. I was a Quebec Anglo for 16 years. It was home, I was closely bound to the institutions of English Montreal, I felt and feel that to constrain them is to diminish the city.

But there is a sense in which this is zero sum. There's no way to satisfy all claims. The continued existence of a truly francophone jurisdiction in North America likely requires some heavy-handed or illiberal functions, and these will have their personal downsides.

Believe me, I'm over here, I have considered 'Montreal as a kind of Copenhagen'. But it's just another path to Louisiana, given the larger context. We have to be honest with ourselves.

[lio45]

"Formerly robust rural farming communities are dying an increasingly rapid death and it feels sad (to some); most people however don't feel sadness at this loss. At best, there is indifference. The usual response is a shrug" could easily apply to, say, Saskatchewan. This general phenomenon is definitely not specific to Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

If I could snap my fingers and somehow cause the Quebec Anglo community to return to its height of influence and demographic weight, I would have to a proportional degree imperiled the French fact in North America. I was a Quebec Anglo for 16 years. It was home, I was closely bound to the institutions of English Montreal, I felt and feel that to constrain them is to diminish the city.

But there is a sense in which this is zero sum. There's no way to satisfy all claims. The continued existence of a truly francophone jurisdiction in North America likely requires some heavy-handed or illiberal functions, and these will have their personal downsides.

Believe me, I'm over here, I have considered 'Montreal as a kind of Copenhagen'. But it's just another path to Louisiana, given the larger context. We have to be honest with ourselves.

If I may, it's actually not entirely dissimilar to Israel-Palestine, or Beirut, or Northern Ireland, though the intensity and tension is probably a 2 as opposed to a 9 or a 10.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Rural outmigration occurs for many reasons. In much of the country this is for economic reasons and a desire to seek better opportunity in the country's cities. Amongst rural anglophones in Quebec, this is compounded by the general decline of the anglophone communities themselves. Young anglophones in the townships look around, see that their community is in terminal decline, and see that they will have to make a choice - move or fully assimilate into the francophone community. The latter will result in a loss of their identity. Because of this, they often chose to move.

"Young people look around, see that the village they grew up in offers much poorer economic prospects than a relocation to the Big City, and after weighing the pros and cons, decide to leave" has nothing to do with language...

I can guarantee you that the ones who choose to stay (why would they, though? How do you convince a young person to stay in a tiny village when there are exciting things out there?) are able to continue to live in English pretty easily. I live in the Townships and am intimately familiar with every little corner of this region.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Young people look around, see that the village they grew up in offers much poorer economic prospects than a relocation to the Big City, and after weighing the pros and cons, decide to leave" has nothing to do with language...

Au contraire. I firmly believe language is definitely part of the equation. Not all of it, but some of it.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If I may, it's actually not entirely dissimilar to Israel-Palestine, or Beirut, or Northern Ireland, though the intensity and tension is probably a 2 as opposed to a 9 or a 10.

I actually find it somewhat similar to the relationship between English speaking South Africans and Afrikaners, though that's obviously overshadowed by other things going on. English South Africans are often bilingual but there's a larger proportion that only speak English (also others that choose to learn Zulu or Xhosa instead of Afrikaans in school), and they are more likely to consume "global" anglo media. The Afrikaner community is more tight-knit with a much stronger connection to the language / ensuring it's continuance, and has developed a more distinct cultural output. Afrkaans language music, movies, tv shows that are primarily developed for the local market only (some things make it big in the Netherlands). Local English language media usually reflects a more multi-cultural audience for consumption across sub-Saharan Africa.

[mousquet]

I don't want to be a troll here, but it still feels like the Anglo-Saxon culture has a serious complex or problem with any fucking thing related to anything slightly or remotely French.

What the hell?

Either they sort of idealize and worship us as if we were some kind of exceptionally sophisticated people, that we can be at times, but not always.
Or they hate us as if we were their worst rival in goddamn History.
Yep, the English never could take control of mainland Europe thanks to the French.
So what? Our ancestors defended themselves and were right.
What's wrong with that?

Did you hear what the new UK prime minister stated when she was asked whether the Fr prez was a friend or a foe?

• Video Link

Everybody laughed over here, like - ahhh, those good old English... They'll never change. Always the same.

Somehow, bashing the French still earns you some votes out there, especially when it comes to their Conservative party.

But you know what? Bashing the English no longer makes any single vote here in France.
It's like most the French don't even mind any longer about the UK. They simply don't care.
Bah ouais, that's very harsh, I know. Indifference and lack of interest are the worst, bitchiest thing, right?
But that's the way it is over here now.

Now, I think Quebecers need to both speak English and defend our language in North America, because that makes us unique and cooler.
English in business, faithful to French in love and anything else. Faithful to our language whatever it takes! That's a very feasible thing.

We can deal with the Anglo culture anyway. No problem. It's not too hard to understand, really.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Architype

I am not saying the situation did not exist, but it is part of the popular narrative now, somewhat exaggerated. Who were these Anglo oppressors, how and why did it begin? I could say that we are all cheap labour, perhaps you, or me; the so-called oppressors are the wealthy class, regardless of language or nationality. I have been to Quebec and I've seen plenty of photos here as well, of very nice looking historic Quebecois towns and cities, they don't have the look of impoverishment.

In the federal Laurendeau-Dunton (Bilingualism and Biculturalism) Commission in the 1960s, it was reported that French Canadians ranked something like 14th out of 15 "ethnic groups" in terms of socio-economic development, ahead of only Indigenous people IIRC. And this was in Quebec, a province where they made up 85% of the population.

There is basically no intergenerational wealth in French Canada, as anyone familiar with this population group can attest.

Obviously this wasn't all the fault of the anglos, but one can't blame people for becoming restless and wanting the situation to change.

As for beautiful older buildings, that's just a reflection of how things were built a long time ago, and like many places in the world, what were once modest dwellings today be pretty attractive characterful modern-day buildings when refurbished.

Note also that lot of the more ornate buildings in older parts of Montreal and Quebec City were actually by (or "for") the British. This includes a number of buildings that some would still consider "French-style".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

I actually find it somewhat similar to the relationship between English speaking South Africans and Afrikaners, though that's obviously overshadowed by other things going on. English South Africans are often bilingual but there's a larger proportion that only speak English (also others that choose to learn Zulu or Xhosa instead of Afrikaans in school), and they are more likely to consume "global" anglo media. The Afrikaner community is more tight-knit with a much stronger connection to the language / ensuring it's continuance, and has developed a more distinct cultural output. Afrkaans language music, movies, tv shows that are primarily developed for the local market only (some things make it big in the Netherlands). Local English language media usually reflects a more multi-cultural audience for consumption across sub-Saharan Africa.

That's actually a really good example as well.

[MolsonExport]

Alas, politicking has always been about pouring scorn on sometimes your neighbours and even sometimes your closest friends.

There is this distasteful love-hate relationship that the UK has with France and the French (I pick up on it when I read the Economist: I have been a subscriber for a quarter century). But it goes the other way too (i.e., there is no good food in England, The Brits are preoccupied with money and status, the evils of "Anglo-saxon capitalism", etc.). It is similar within Quebec, in terms of the usually civil but sometimes fractious relationship between the longstanding Anglo community and the mainstream Quebecois society (Anglos complaining, Francos calling them the most spoiled minority in the world, etc.).

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I don't want to be a troll here, but it still feels like the Anglo-Saxon culture has a serious complex or problem with any fucking thing related to anything slightly or remotely French.

Norman conquest. It's in the blood. We're actually also a little weird about the Nords on a similar background, but it's way less intense because they were never imperial rivals, and they didn't breed/bleed into the class system in the same way ("Montague" is a posh surname; "Hansen" is nothing).

(Every Brit I know here vacillates between seeing the Scandis as polished, perfected versions of themselves and seeing them as something competent but uncanny, even soulless.)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most Canadian anglophones don't learn French when they marry into francophone families, and don't learn French when they move into francophone communities, including even those in Quebec.

Except my Uncle, who now speaks English with a heavy Quebecois accent. He was more or less uni-lingual (English) until he was seduced by a uni-lingual (French) Quebecoise, married her, and moved to QC. They later divorced (after having two kids, one of whom is unilingual French-speaking; all of their children's children are almost uni-lingual French), but he married another uni-lingual Quebecoise.

His story is not that unique. Our very own Harls married into a francophone family. At least half of the Irish community of Quebec assimilated into the francophone majority. Most Italians and Greeks now do as well, after years of usually integrating into the Anglo community. Outside of Montreal (And maybe Gatineau), English is on the ropes in Quebec.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Except my Uncle, who now speaks English with a heavy Quebecois accent. He was more or less uni-lingual (English) until he was seduced by a uni-lingual (French) Quebecoise, married her, and moved to QC. They later divorced (after having two kids, one of whom is unilingual French-speaking; all of their children are almost uni-lingual French), but he married another uni-lingual Quebecois.

Same with my aunt. Learned French in Montreal as a student, married an east-ender and became the matriarch of a giant francophone family east of Rimouski.

Cousins are either francophones out there, francophones in Montreal or have emigrated to the US.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec is not a country, and I don’t think you feel it should become one.

Not based on what's been presented in this thread, or based on what the CAQ are trying to implement. If any sovereignty option was appealing it would be Solidaire's, but i've already overstepped my eligibility in having an outside opinion of Quebec affairs.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Mosf of the so-called discriminatory laws in Quebec are precisely defensive measures in order to protect the society that exists in Quebec against the steamroller society of the very real larger country we are a part of.

I mean, they are discriminatory. They only aren't if you bend over backwards for a specific narrative. See below.

Originally Posted by Acajack

If Quebec society had not been sabotaged and weakened by that country for much of our history, and the governance structure more in tune with our needs, then the measures you hate would not be needed.

"It's ok for us to discriminate today because we've been discriminated in the past."

Originally Posted by Acajack

I prefer realism to denialism.

You can just say you support the convoy, which would put you into the minority in this country which supports them (and Poilievre).

Originally Posted by Acajack

In the federal Laurendeau-Dunton (Bilingualism and Biculturalism) Commission in the 1960s, it was reported that French Canadians ranked something like 14th out of 15 "ethnic groups" in terms of socio-economic development, ahead of only Indigenous people IIRC. And this was in Quebec, a province where they made up 85% of the population.

I don't recall there being a ranking in that report, although it's been a while since i've read through it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Not based on what's been presented in this thread, or based on what the CAQ are trying to implement. If any sovereignty option was appealing it would be Solidaire's, but i've already overstepped my eligibility in having an outside opinion of Quebec affairs.


I mean, they are discriminatory. They only aren't if you bend over backwards for a specific narrative. See below.


"It's ok for us to discriminate today because we've been discriminated in the past."


You can just say you support the convoy, which would put you into the minority in this country which supports them (and Poilievre).


I don't recall there being a ranking in that report, although it's been a while since i've read through it.

I've read about it many times. Not sure if the Bi and Bi reports are online.

La Commission royale d'enquête sur le bilinguisme et le biculturalisme (Commission Laurendeau-Dunton), instituée par le gouvernement fédéral, publia un Rapport préliminaire en 1965, après avoir reçu au-delà de 400 mémoires; les autres tranches du rapport s'échelonnèrent jusqu'en 1970. Certaines révélations eurent l'effet d'une véritable douche froide sur les francophones. Tout le monde savait que l'anglais était la véritable langue du travail au Québec, de même que celle de la promotion sociale, du commerce, des affaires et de l'affichage: la Commission ne révéla rien de neuf à ce sujet. Mais on ignorait que:

- 83 % des administrateurs et cadres du Québec étaient anglophones;
- les francophones du Québec avaient un revenu moyen inférieur de 35 % à celui des anglophones;
- les francophones arrivaient au 12e rang dans l'échelle des revenus selon l'origine ethnique, avant les Italiens et les Amérindiens;
- à instruction égale, les francophones gagnaient moins que tous les autres groupes linguistiques;
- les anglophones unilingues gagnaient plus que les bilingues anglophones ou francophones;
- même assimilé, un francophone ne réussissait pas mieux;
- depuis 30 ans, la situation n'avait fait qu'empirer.

https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/francophonie/HISTfrQC_s4_Modernisation.htm

Originally Posted by JHikka

You can just say you support the convoy, which would put you into the minority in this country which supports them (and Poilievre).


.

Except I actually didn't and still don't.

I actually could have been convinced to support Legault's "taxe antivax".

Originally Posted by JHikka

Not based on what's been presented in this thread, or based on what the CAQ are trying to implement. If any sovereignty option was appealing it would be Solidaire's, but i've already overstepped my eligibility in having an outside opinion of Quebec affairs.

.

Oh, you can definitely have an opinion and express it.

Will it even matter in the final analysis, though?

(Even less so I'd say in the context of an independent Quebec.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Same with my aunt. Learned French in Montreal as a student, married an east-ender and became the matriarch of a giant francophone family east of Rimouski.

Cousins are either francophones out there, francophones in Montreal or have emigrated to the US.

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Except my Uncle, who now speaks English with a heavy Quebecois accent. He was more or less uni-lingual (English) until he was seduced by a uni-lingual (French) Quebecoise, married her, and moved to QC. They later divorced (after having two kids, one of whom is unilingual French-speaking; all of their children's children are almost uni-lingual French), but he married another uni-lingual Quebecoise.

His story is not that unique. Our very own Harls married into a francophone family. At least half of the Irish community of Quebec assimilated into the francophone majority. Most Italians and Greeks now do as well, after years of usually integrating into the Anglo community. Outside of Montreal (And maybe Gatineau), English is on the ropes in Quebec.

There are exceptions, of course. That's why I said "most". I still stand by that "most".

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are exceptions, of course. That's why I said "most". I still stand by that "most".

Yes, our Borg-like absorption powers are legendary. I live in the middle of the Swedish capital with a Swede and my household, if somehow live-streamed with an invite to guess the location, would likely prompt "Cleveland".

I know of several close friends in Stockholm, Belgrade and Istanbul who are pulling off similar situations with natives like it's nothing.

The one in Istanbul actively teaches "Essex" in addition to the English and Turkish his daughter learns in international school. It has become a quasi-mythic place for his family, almost like Camelot.