Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Quebec already has the best of both worlds i fail to see how Quebec's population share decline is English Canada's fault.

As New Brisavoine points out, English Canada takes in insane amounts of newcomers year after year to fuel the Ponzi scheme; so yeah, their fault.

The "out of whack" figure here isn't Quebec's yearly intake, it's Anglo-Canada's.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I honestly do not see any short-term, medium-term or even long-term scenario where Canada (ie Anglo-Canada) wants to reduce immigration.

Essentially it would be due to a hard economic recession, long-term high unemployment, and the anger behind that.

Think of the 1970s, but for decades and across the country.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ultimately it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. It's a question of whether people think remaining in Canada is in their interests and if there is compatibility in terms of where the country is going.

Thats fair as the values of Quebec and English canada are radically different and shifting even more so. However in Quebec's interest i would say it has a pretty sweet best of both worlds scenario right now that I fail to see would improve with all the costs and tumolt that separation would bring.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Interesting that you bring up Japan as it is a good example of a country that doesn't like immigration and is currently paying the price for it. Incredibly high debt-to-GDP, low growth projections, and the need to quadruple their foreign workforce in the next two decades if they are to meet even the most paltry of high-growth scenarios.

A cautionary tale for Quebec if one ever existed. What happens in areas with aging demographics when you don't introduce new people is that you end up in a scenario where worker productivity decreases as your working age population decreases. In order to ensure that your workforce, and your economy, doesn't contract, you have to fill the gaps with labour from abroad.

Japan's incredible export economy keeps it afloat for the time being, and continues on due to the vast majority of that government debt being held by Japanese banks themselves. Quebec would fair nowhere near as well if they were to try similar tactics of limiting immigration and letting their population contract. You'd save the language but make living there far worse as purchasing power decreases, savings are decreased to take on debt, and export industries more difficult to create due to lack of working age population and braindrain. Presumably the rest of the country would be responsible for bailing them out.

I was talking about Canada, not about Québec.

If Québec was an independent country, by definition they would manage their own immigration, so having high immigration would be less of a problem for them. They would basically select immigrants based on knowledge of the French language. And immigrants would know they are moving to a French-speaking country, not to an English-speaking country with a French-speaking minority in one province. If Norway was part of the UK, immigrants arriving in Oslo would have no real incentive to learn the complicated Norwegian language, whereas in an independent Norway, obviously, if you arrive in Oslo you are forced to learn Norwegian, otherwise you remain isolated in a tiny bubble with almost no job prospects and no understanding of your surroundings.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

As New Brisavoine points out, English Canada takes in insane amounts of newcomers year after year to fuel the Ponzi scheme; so yeah, their fault.

The "out of whack" figure here isn't Quebec's yearly intake, it's Anglo-Canada's.

Ponzi scheme work, until they don't.

Which is going to make the next few decades real interesting.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I suppose the distribution of votes would continue to mean more Liberal members than Conservative?

The Liberals' meager chunk of the vote (at the lowest levels since that party's history began in 1867) is, at least, quite reliable, unlike the PCQ which has a strong "flavor of the week" feel and the spell could be broken by any number of things between now and e-day - which is not the case with the Libs.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by lio45

As New Brisavoine points out, English Canada takes in insane amounts of newcomers year after year to fuel the Ponzi scheme; so yeah, their fault.

The "out of whack" figure here isn't Quebec's yearly intake, it's Anglo-Canada's.

Unless Canadians start having more babies i don't see another option to solve the staffing shortages in all of Canadian life other than mass immigration

[GreaterMontréal]

Legault wants to gain as much as possible from the PQ so of course he will not call for more than 50k immigrants. Once the election's done, the economy will take the first spot and he might go to 70-80k because why not. He will probably want to appease all the pro immigration crowd for the next election in 2026.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I was talking about Canada, not about Québec.

If Québec was an independent country, by definition they would manage their own immigration, so having high immigration would be less of a problem for them. They would basically select immigrants based on knowledge of the French language.

Without any sort of other consideration? Are they refugees? Economic migrants? Family migrants?

If Quebec is immigrating people from Congo or Benin en masse is Quebecois culture surviving or is the French language surviving? Is there a difference? I have a feeling there is.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And immigrants would know they are moving to a French-speaking country, not to an English-speaking country with a French-speaking minority in one province.

Do French-speaking immigrants have any issues moving to Quebec today?

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If Norway was part of the UK ...

lol

Originally Posted by lio45

As New Brisavoine points out, English Canada takes in insane amounts of newcomers year after year to fuel the Ponzi scheme; so yeah, their fault.

The "out of whack" figure here isn't Quebec's yearly intake, it's Anglo-Canada's.

I knew it was Canada's fault somehow!

[lio45]

On a semi-related note, ever since my gf and I relocated to a little Anglo village in the Townships, I found myself switching to English just to be nice (last lady I did this with was amazed at my fluency, if I may brag a bit ) which is pretty far from the undeserved reputation I have on this forum (as some sort of Harasser of Anglos).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ironically, that federal policy of high immigration could lead to the secession of Québec, exactly what they try to prevent. One can imagine that if it comes to a point where the Québécois feel too insecure inside a Canada where they count for nothing, then the desire for separation will rise among the Francophone population of Québec.

Immigration in Canada has always been used as a weapon against francophones (and Indigenous people).

The francophones had a brief hiatus for a couple of decades starting around the 1980s where there seemed to a sincere effort to make immigration "work" for us too.

Similar to how immigration works in francophone Switzerland and germanophone Switzerland.

But very slowly but surely in recent years it seems like the old Canadian habits have been coming back. I actually didn't believe it at first and was probably even in denial but now it's getting to hard to ignore the facts on the ground. I have no idea why Canadian federal authorities seem to be doing this as it seems to be an incredibly dumb or risky move.

Obviously in some nastier circles there is the idea that so many non-francophones will move to Quebec to the point where independence will become impossible, but if you look at the demographics of Quebec there is still lots of time left before that really happens (if it ever will), and for independence to take root if people get really pissed off.

But yeah, a largish segment of Anglo-Canada does think it's got Quebec over a barrel right now and that we're fucked.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Ponzi scheme work, until they don't.

Which is going to make the next few decades real interesting.

The need should start to decline by the 2040s, as the Boomers shuffle off this mortal coil (having left the medical system a dessicated husk).

[Architype]

Absurdity abounds abundantly and absolutely, eh.

Legault sorry for English content on his party's website

Coalition Avenir Quebec Leader François Legault said Wednesday he regrets that English-language content was published on his party's website.

Campaigning ahead of the Oct. 3 provincial election, Legault told reporters in the Montreal suburb of Longueuil that he intervened personally to have the content removed.

The party had published an English version of a document detailing its accomplishments during its four years in government. . . .

"It's an exception. The entire website is only in French. There was the record that was posted bilingually. It should have all been in French," he said.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/quebec-elect...content-on-his-party-s-website-1.6058946

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Immigration in Canada has always been used as a weapon against francophones (and Indigenous people).

The francophones had a brief hiatus for a couple of decades starting around the 1980s where there seemed to a sincere effort to make immigration "work" for us too.

Similar to how immigration works in francophone Switzerland and germanophone Switzerland.

But very slowly but surely in recent years it seems like the old Canadian habits have been coming back. I actually didn't believe it at first and was probably even in denial but now it's getting to hard to ignore the facts on the ground. I have no idea why Canadian federal authorities seem to be doing this as it seems to be an incredibly dumb or risky move.

Obviously in some nastier circles there is the idea that so many non-francophones will move to Quebec to the point where independence will become impossible, but if you look at the demographics of Quebec there is still lots of time left before that really happens (if it ever will), and for independence to take root if people get really pissed off.

But yeah, a largish segment of Anglo-Canada does think it's got Quebec over a barrel right now and that we're fucked.

That might be true to a degree for 30 years during the Mulroney Chretien-Martin and Harper years Canadian immigration always hovered around 250 thousand per year but ever since JT came to power its been way up and now in the mid 450s per year I don't understand where the massive almost doubling of numbers in just 6 or 7 years came from and we see the housing affordability crisis as a result.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Immigration in Canada has always been used as a weapon against francophones (and Indigenous people).

The francophones had a brief hiatus for a couple of decades starting around the 1980s where there seemed to a sincere effort to make immigration "work" for us too.

Similar to how immigration works in francophone Switzerland and germanophone Switzerland.

But very slowly but surely in recent years it seems like the old Canadian habits have been coming back. I actually didn't believe it at first and was probably even in denial but now it's getting to hard to ignore the facts on the ground. I have no idea why Canadian federal authorities seem to be doing this as it seems to be an incredibly dumb or risky move.

Obviously in some nastier circles there is the idea that so many non-francophones will move to Quebec to the point where independence will become impossible, but if you look at the demographics of Quebec there is still lots of time left before that really happens (if it ever will), and for independence to take root if people get really pissed off.

But yeah, a largish segment of Anglo-Canada does think it's got Quebec over a barrel right now and that we're fucked.

To what are you referring?

[JHikka]

Legault also apologized this evening for equating immigrants with violence, below.

Kate McKenna
@katemckenna8

CAQ leader @francoislegault was asked about what he considered to be the challenges in integrating immigrants into Quebec.

He said Quebecers have specific "values" and that they are peaceful and don't like "extremists or violence".

--

The below ad from the Parti Quebecois equates the spread of English to that of a disease, and includes borders which eliminate the existence of Labrador, which the PQ have never acknowledged.

• Video Link

Fun campaign, I guess.

[suburbanite]

What does Occam's Razor tells us about Canada's goals in regards to immigration? That it is still a plot to dilute Francophone influence in Canada? Or that it's cheap economic crack cocaine for a country that has relatively poor labour productivity compared to its peers and faces undeniable future demographic problems?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I mean, what happens in say 20 years if Quebec becomes a "have" province?

Swamped by Anglophone migration from other Canadian provinces?

Maybe the Québec government would then request a special permit for other Canadians to be able to reside and work in Québec. You probably think "crazy", and yet it already exists in France. Metropolitan Frenchmen who want to go live and work in New Caledonia need to obtain a special permit, almost like a work visa, despite the fact it's the same country, same citizenship, same courts. They call that a "citoyenneté calédonienne" (as opposed to "nationalité française").

So, using this example, there would be the "nationalité canadienne" (Canadian citizenship), but Canadian citizenship wouldn't be enough to settle and work in Québec, you'd also need to have the "citoyenneté québécoise" (Québec special citizenship) to live and work in Québec. This "citoyenneté" would be reserved to natives of Québec, and natives from other provinces would need to obtain a certain permit to settle and work in Québec. That's exactly the situation that exists today in New Caledonia (the Kanak independence parties requested it in 1998, it was one of their major demands).

[thurmas]

Is a Labrador retriever called a Quebec Nord retriever in Quebec?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

To what are you referring?

I don't think it's much of a secret that immigration has once again become an increasing factor in the decline of the francophone share of the population in Canada, Quebec, Montreal, etc. (and increases in the anglophone share), part of which related to federal decision-making (ie rejecting francophone applications while approving anglophone ones in much greater proportions) or simply due to it trending more or less naturally to favour Canadian and North American demographics.