Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW) 1.0

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Very true that the initial routes won't be extravagant for us but I don't think they will use the Dash-8's to fly to YYZ. I might be wrong but I think they're reserving those for YTZ. There's nothing stopping them from changing up YTZ routes to free up some Dash-8's though. I think YOW will initial get some Western Canadian destinations, maybe one or 2 to Florida since Winter is very close. As they increase their plane numbers in 2023 I'm hoping for south-west USA. Also, they may change initial routes if they think it's not working, it happens all the time. I'm more thinking about the heavy competition in YUL and YYZ and because of that, I still think they will do far better in YOW and YHZ.

I am hoping so much that you are right about many of these things, especially a Southwest US route. Ideally for me, I would love Las Vegas (for the location and natural sights, not the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵) or Los Angeles, but San Francisco or Denver (the last one I doubt), would be nice additions to our list of non-stop destinations!

Los Angeles and San Francisco also open up many Asian destinations that would require only a single connection on the US West Coast instead of 3 planes like right now (e.g., Ottawa to Toronto/Vancouver to Tokyo to Malaysia or Indonesia).

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

I am hoping so much that you are right about many of these things, especially a Southwest US route. Ideally for me, I would love Las Vegas (for the location and natural sights, not the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵) or Los Angeles, but San Francisco or Denver (the last one I doubt), would be nice additions to our list of non-stop destinations!

Los Angeles and San Francisco also open up many Asian destinations that would require only a single connection on the US West Coast instead of 3 planes like right now (e.g., Ottawa to Toronto/Vancouver to Tokyo to Malaysia or Indonesia).

Great thoughts. I think places like Denver, Phoenix, Dallas, etc would be more later on and if they are relying on connecting traffic to fill those flights in YOW (I think our O&D numbers to these places is somewhere between 10-20k each (per year) so they can be served from YOW with connecting traffic).

Western Canada, California, Vegas would be safer for them from here (if I'm not mistaken, O&D numbers between YOW and LA are ~40k, SFO is ~45-50k, and Vegas is around ~50k - Vegas used to be 60k+ before Westjet cut it!). I'm going off the top of my head, I haven't checked the numbers recently. Even safer US destinations would be places like DC, New York, Chicago, and Florida but I don't know if they will use the jets for the first 3 or continue to serve those places from YTZ with the Dash-8's.

Places like Nashville or Charlotte would probably be way into the future if they happen at all. I think O&D numbers for those fall below 10k. These thoughts are pure speculation on my part and of course numbers are not the only deciding factor. There are so many things to consider. However, I do hope YOW will attract travellers with at least some direct options (especially those who drive to other airports) so we can see what our actual O&D numbers are. It's clear that when a route is dropped, numbers also drop (and vice versa), either because the convenience of direct attracted travellers in the first place and/or because people are now driving elsewhere to get that direct fight.

[Truenorth00]

40k annual o/d is ~110/day. Gonna be hard to support a route on that. Even with a smaller aircraft they probably need at least an average of 200/day to justify a pair of flights. I'd look to see where YOW ha a more than 100k o/d annually for early service candidates.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

40k annual o/d is ~110/day. Gonna be hard to support a route on that. Even with a smaller aircraft they probably need at least an average of 200/day to justify a pair of flights. I'd look to see where YOW ha a more than 100k o/d annually for early service candidates.

Well for Vegas take away June July and August when other routes are full and 150 a day starts to look decent. Add connections from Eastern Canada and you are filling planes.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Great thoughts. I think places like Denver, Phoenix, Dallas, etc would be more later on and if they are relying on connecting traffic to fill those flights in YOW (I think our O&D numbers to these places is somewhere between 10-20k each (per year) so they can be served from YOW with connecting traffic.

I’m biased, but I’m all in for YOW-PHX…. I’d pay a hefty premium to do this 2x per year…

Only option right now is AC through YYZ (on Rouge) or United through ORD or EWR. There is absolutely no comparison between the 2. Prices are similar, but Rouge and the 29” pitch is a living hell.

Canadians need to understand how superior the US airlines are overall…. And anything to cut into ACs abuse of this is desperately required…

[Stacmon]

A lot of us can probably agree that if Porter adds even one new non-stop destination that isn't offered by anyone else immediately or shortly after this new plane launch (any of let's say Las Vegas, Los Angeles or San Francisco), we'll have a noticeable change in options for travellers out of YOW and many of the optimists among us will see it as foreshadowing an exciting possible future for both YOW and Porter, with more flights added if that first one proves successful.

Ultimately if even the diehards on this forum won't pay a premium or even simply use a new route like this, there probably won't be much long term hope for it, so hopefully we support it with our wallets!

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

40k annual o/d is ~110/day. Gonna be hard to support a route on that. Even with a smaller aircraft they probably need at least an average of 200/day to justify a pair of flights. I'd look to see where YOW ha a more than 100k o/d annually for early service candidates.

The thing is, even pre-pandemic and way back in the early 2010s when transborder was at its peak, YOW didn't have any 100k annual O&D routes. Not even MCO or FLL. This is where the right sized aircraft, a nonstop route stimulating traffic and a bank of connections make that 50 average O&D pax per day each way route viable. Even at fortress the hubs few network carrier flights don't have at least 1/3 connecting traffic, and that includes the foreign carriers feeding their own hubs. Then you've got AC that is 99% connections on YOW-YUL because they charge such ridiculous fares they don't even want any O&D traffic. Probably 3/4 of that 1% of O&D traffic are non-rev pax.

Today's departure count: 66

Today's cancellation count (so far): 0

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by MountainView

Porter still hasn't had delivery of their first jet engine plane yet. Nor do I think Transport Canada has approved the E195-E2 to fly in Canada yet. (someone please correct me or confirm if you can).

A quick search of the NICO database will tell you that the aircraft is indeed not yet approved. There is no Canadian Type Certificate for these Embraer model(s) … those being ERJ 190-300/400 for the 190/195 E2 commercial designations.

https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/nico-celn/c_s.aspx?lang=eng

[Zmonkey]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well for Vegas take away June July and August when other routes are full and 150 a day starts to look decent. Add connections from Eastern Canada and you are filling planes.

Vegas doesn't even need to be daily.
Do 4x a week, Thanksgiving to May Long weekend.
Should be risk free enough for Porter.

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

Vegas doesn't even need to be daily.
Do 4x a week, Thanksgiving to May Long weekend.
Should be risk free enough for Porter.

While I definitely like the idea and flexibility of daily flights, I agree that some of these absolutely do not need to be daily for us to greatly benefit in Ottawa.

Your comment made me think back to the time I flew to Tokyo and ended up doing it through Calgary. It was winter and I missed my connection there due I think to a delay leaving from Ottawa and ended up needing to go to Vancouver to take a Tokyo flight one day later.

The absence of a daily flight may be a bit inconvenient, but my major takeaway was something like "Wow! Calgary, a city with about the same population as Ottawa, has non-stop flights all the way to Tokyo!"

When a person has some flexibility for their travel (e.g., a vacation) or the days line up conveniently by coincidence (e.g., a well timed work trip), having a flight 2, 3 or 4 times a week can be huge!

The same goes for having the flight only during a particular season due to higher demand, like the summer, although here having it year round is much more important to me than daily.

If Ottawa could get a few more non-daily non-stop year round routes to places like the Southwest US/California and Europe, we would really be in good shape! I am afraid I can't see an East Asian flight like the ones Toronto or Montreal have any time soon though!

[YOWflier]

Vegas has been tried…and tried…and tried. AC, WS, and F8. Ottawans voted either with cheapness or allegiance to Aeropesos or both. “Start the car!”

This is why I fear for prospects of Porter at YOW. They will probably try, Ottawans will probably screw it up.

If we end up with PD’s maintenance base, and all the jobs and new industry in the City that come with it, it’ll be a huge enough win in my book. I’ve got major hopes for network improvements, but those are tempered by experience observing people’s’ habits.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by FlyYOW

Vegas has been tried…and tried…and tried. AC, WS, and F8. Ottawans voted either with cheapness or allegiance to Aeropesos or both. “Start the car!”

This is why I fear for prospects of Porter at YOW. They will probably try, Ottawans will probably screw it up.

If we end up with PD’s maintenance base, and all the jobs and new industry in the City that come with it, it’ll be a huge enough win in my book. I’ve got major hopes for network improvements, but those are tempered by experience observing people’s’ habits.

It doesn't baffle me why WS and AC cut it, maybe they wanted to fill their flight more, but being a non-hub airport, they don't connect passengers here. What does make me scratch my head though is why airlines are totally obsessed with Calgary. People try to make points on why it's the way it is there but it still isn't going through my head. Ottawa is an ever so slightly larger city, and it's not like corporate bases are non-existent here. Hopefully Porter will make Vegas work from here with connections from the Maritimes, which is something AC and WS never had in the past. Even though AC serves those Maritime destinations, they just serve them. They don't use them to connect in YOW, since that's what YYZ and YUL are for. This is evident by the flight times since they don't time flights in YOW in a way to connect passengers here. Being a hub for Porter means there is a likelihood that Ottawa will be used to connect and timings will match.

On a side note, if we do get those direct flights and people are still saying "start the car!" to destinations that are served by YOW, sorry but I side with the airlines at that point and I would pull flights out of YOW as well. People of Ottawa in that case do not deserve to have such service. I hope this won't happen, but I wouldn't put it past them.

On the note of frequency: I agree that a daily flight is not necessary. It is probably feasible if connecting passengers are stopping in YOW, but again, not necessary. Porter can use 1 aircraft to go to SFO and LAX on alternate days from YOW for example. Remember also Porter has said that the smaller E190's that they have options to purchase will be good for "destinations where connecting flights are often the only option". I doubt they were talking about YYZ because God forbid anyone in Toronto connect anywhere.

I'm still hopeful Porter will come through for us!

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

It doesn't baffle me why WS and AC cut it, maybe they wanted to fill their flight more, but being a non-hub airport, they don't connect passengers here.

There’s nothing baffling about it. People clamour for a direct flight, numbers look good to support it on O&D, airlines take a chance and launch it but at a premium, people vote with their wallet and choose still to connect or drive, flights are pulled due to underperformance.

The wildcard is feed. None of those were structured around it; Porter could be different in theory.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by FlyYOW

Vegas has been tried…and tried…and tried. AC, WS, and F8. Ottawans voted either with cheapness or allegiance to Aeropesos or both. “Start the car!”

This is why I fear for prospects of Porter at YOW. They will probably try, Ottawans will probably screw it up.

I can't remember when those attempts were made, but Ottawa has grown considerably in the past 5-10 years, so at least the market should be somewhat better now. Personally I'd much rather see LAX or SFO than Vegas, but anything would help.

[YOWflier]

I can’t recall exact timing (early 2000s-ish) but it was a while ago for sure.

Edit: some searching found AC YOW-LAS started September 2007. Can’t find exact dates on WS but it was roughly in 2015.

Flair is very recent. It was loaded as recently as past winter but never once got off the ground, a sign of weak bookings.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

It doesn't baffle me why WS and AC cut it, maybe they wanted to fill their flight more, but being a non-hub airport, they don't connect passengers here. What does make me scratch my head though is why airlines are totally obsessed with Calgary. People try to make points on why it's the way it is there but it still isn't going through my head. Ottawa is an ever so slightly larger city, and it's not like corporate bases are non-existent here.

Here are some reasons:

• YYC is WS's hub but as you said, YOW is a hub to no one.
• People from YEG (a similar size city to Ottawa and Calgary) can easily connect to YYC, but YOW offers no connection opportunities that can't equally be served by the larger YUL and YYZ.
• YVR and YYZ are significant detours from YYC for connecting flights to most destinations, but YYZ (or YUL for flights to Europe) are not significant detours from YOW.

The one thing YOW has going for it is the number of cities in the under 800km range, where a direct flight is faster than driving, but it is as fast if not faster to drive to your destination than to use a connecting flight.

I noticed this when traveling to Philadelphia for business once (before COVID). The direct flight was by far the fastest route, but if I connected in YYZ, the scheduled travel time (door to door) took as long as it would take to drive (especially considering my destination was a suburb north of the city). I booked the connection for the flight down, as it allowed for a later departure (spending more time with my family), but, as luck would have it, my connecting flight was several hours late.

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

On a side note, if we do get those direct flights and people are still saying "start the car!" to destinations that are served by YOW, sorry but I side with the airlines at that point and I would pull flights out of YOW as well. People of Ottawa in that case do not deserve to have such service. I hope this won't happen, but I wouldn't put it past them.

That really depends on price and schedule. If the direct flight is $500 more per person and I'm travelling with a family of 4, I'll either drive to the destination or to an airport with the cheaper flight and save the $2000. Similarly if the direct flight is many hours (or days) earlier or later than I want, I'm going to look for a better route. Not so bad for vacation (I get more time at my destination) but for business, that is time away from my family.
I want to support YOW, but not at any cost.

I am curios how much extra people on here would pay to fly out of YOW?

• $100?
• $1000?
• $10,000?
• $100,000?

Everyone has a price.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Here are some reasons:[LIST]

I am curios how much extra people on here would pay to fly out of YOW?

• $100?
• $1000?
• $10,000?
• $100,000?

Everyone has a price.

For me, the number is around $500-600 total, assuming that the drive is to Montreal. I'd roughly calculate the cost of driving there to be $150, and parking for a week is $280 (minus the $30 I'd spend on a cab here), so I'm at $400 without valuing anything for my time or the value of avoiding the need to drive really early or late. So unless I'm saving $500 or more, I pick Ottawa.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am curios how much extra people on here would pay to fly out of YOW?

• $100?
• $1000?
• $10,000?
• $100,000?

Everyone has a price.

Good question, I broke a sweat thinking about it. It really depends on the circumstance for me. I will never drive to YUL, that's the first point. I can always find similar prices with connecting flights leaving YOW (for the destinations I've used in the past at least). Plus considering the gas, the wear and tear on my car, the time it takes, the parking, etc. it just does not seem worth it for me personally. Plus airlines go through great lengths to win connecting passengers. In the US, the major airlines increase connection frequencies, lessen the time between connections, and offer better timings during the day to get those connecting passengers. I am not paying AC hundreds or thousands of dollars to make their life more convenient by driving myself to fill their flights in YUL, I am paying them to make my life more convenient. I have never heard of any circumstance where the client caters to the business. If they don't have the option in YOW, they will have to fly me somewhere that does, plain and simple.

Second, if the option is offered at YOW, I would pay a premium to fly direct. For example, if a connecting AC flight is $300 to a specific destination and Porter's is $600 but direct, I'm going with Porter. Direct is more convenient and I want to support the airlines that will be giving us direct options in the future. I broke this rule though 2 months ago when I went to Chicago. I connected with Porter at a price of $330 round trip while the direct with UA was $1200! Yicks.... In other words the price difference would have to be pretty hefty for me to consider connecting when the direct option is offered and the ratio is also a consideration, like is it 1.5x the price? 2x? 3x? Plus I also consider other factors, like is there only a specific time of day I can go? How much longer will I add to my travel time if I connect? Is it AC or an airline I want to support like Porter?

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I am curios how much extra people on here would pay to fly out of YOW?

• $100?
• $1000?
• $10,000?
• $100,000?

Everyone has a price.

Personally, I don’t factor another airport into my travel planning. It just doesn’t enter the picture. I look for the best itinerary/price I can get from here and book it. Things can’t improve unless one walks the talk.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Good question, I broke a sweat thinking about it. It really depends on the circumstance for me. I will never drive to YUL, that's the first point. I can always find similar prices with connecting flights leaving YOW (for the destinations I've used in the past at least).

That isn't always true. Since Ontario and Quebec have different school March breaks, it is often hundreds of dollars cheaper per person to fly out of YUL than it is out of YOW. Multiply that by a family of 4 and that can work out to thousands of dollars in savings.

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Plus considering the gas, the wear and tear on my car, the time it takes, the parking, etc. it just does not seem worth it for me personally.

I don't think that works out to several thousands of dollars. I have in the past saved that by flying my family out of YUL during March break. Like @phil235, I wouldn't do it for only a few hundred dollars total savings, because those get eaten up in other costs (including my time).

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Plus airlines go through great lengths to win connecting passengers. In the US, the major airlines increase connection frequencies, lessen the time between connections, and offer better timings during the day to get those connecting passengers. I am not paying AC hundreds or thousands of dollars to make their life more convenient by driving myself to fill their flights in YUL, I am paying them to make my life more convenient. I have never heard of any circumstance where the client caters to the business. If they don't have the option in YOW, they will have to fly me somewhere that does, plain and simple.

Yes, there are multiple routing options, but during peak travel periods, those routings also become expensive.

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Second, if the option is offered at YOW, I would pay a premium to fly direct. For example, if a connecting AC flight is $300 to a specific destination and Porter's is $600 but direct, I'm going with Porter. Direct is more convenient and I want to support the airlines that will be giving us direct options in the future. I broke this rule though 2 months ago when I went to Chicago. I connected with Porter at a price of $330 round trip while the direct with UA was $1200! Yicks.... In other words the price difference would have to be pretty hefty for me to consider connecting when the direct option is offered and the ratio is also a consideration, like is it 1.5x the price? 2x? 3x? Plus I also consider other factors, like is there only a specific time of day I can go? How much longer will I add to my travel time if I connect? Is it AC or an airline I want to support like Porter?

That is the point of my question. How much of a premium are you willing to pay? I would certainly pay a few hundred dollars extra for the convenience of a non-stop flight out of YOW, but there comes a point where it just isn't worth the extra cost.