YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Calfan12]

HAINAN AIRLINES VANCOUVER SERVICE ADJUSTMENT FROM MID-SEP 2022

Hainan Airlines starting mid-September 2022 intends to adjust passenger traffic on Shenzhen – Vancouver route, scheduled once weekly. From 16SEP22, the airline will operate two-way passenger traffic, instead of one-way only from Shenzhen.

Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner operates this route.
HU7959 SZX1945 – 1650YVR 789 4
HU7960 YVR1440 – 1845+1SZX 789 5

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220830-husep22yvr

[nname]

HU had been running flights to SZX for a few months now. More than 10 passengers on the 7/29 flight was tested positive so the flight got shutdown for 4 weeks (8/19 to 9/9). It is allowed to resume service on 9/16.

[Johnny Aussie]

Air NZ Vancouver update for this winter

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220829-nznw22na

Auckland – Vancouver
30OCT22 – 11DEC22 4 weekly 787-9
12DEC22 – 19FEB23 1 daily 787-9
21FEB23 – 25MAR23 5 weekly 787-9 (Previously reported, increase from 4 to 5 weekly)

[Calfan12]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Exactly.. The downgrade in seats happened between 2015 and 2016.

Since 2016, YVR has been served by a single daily A380.

So fast forward to summer 2023. There will be a large increase in seats compared to summer 2016 (7 years ago!) and every year since then.

The pattern in Western Canada over the last few years just shows how YVR is doing compared to other cities when it comes to Europe

BA pulls out of YYC but is adding significant frequencies and capacity at YVR
FI returns to YVR but not YEG
DE returns to YVR but not YYC and DE is increasing flights/capacity at YVR next summer as well (next summer YEG does get 2 weekly flights though)
LH maintains double daily YVR flights yet only recently returns to YYC with their heavily leisure arm Eurowings Discover (and limited seasonal at that only)
TK starts flights to YVR
WS maintains daily 789 flights to LGW despite the emphasis at YYC (which is really only 20 weekly European flights anyway) and doesn’t restart YEG
AC has added destinations and capacity at YVR while ending all YEG flights and holding YYC stagnant
KL, AF and WK all holding their own as well - AF indicating another crack at going daily next summer as well

The above should tell you something

Yep good points & not too surprising as Vancouver YVR is the largest market for Business & Tourism year round in Western Canada/Pacific Northwest =more demand for Air Canada/Foreign Airlines.

At Calgary YYC is dominated by WestJet year round for Domestic/US/International flights & with AC stagnant has made Lynx/Flair happy to add new routes/ frequencies at YYC & also soon Canada Jetlines will eventually be happy about it too.

While at Edmonton YEG -Flair Airlines is building up a fortress,as they have added more Domestic/US/International flights at YEG compared to both Air Canada/ WestJet which have been stagnant last several years.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Air NZ Vancouver update for this winter

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220829-nznw22na

Auckland – Vancouver
30OCT22 – 11DEC22 4 weekly 787-9
12DEC22 – 19FEB23 1 daily 787-9
21FEB23 – 25MAR23 5 weekly 787-9 (Previously reported, increase from 4 to 5 weekly)

During the time of daily NZ flight (Dec-Jan), AC is reducing AKL to 4x weekly and increase BNE to 6x weekly.

So for the latter half of winter season, AKL flight will mostly remain 10-11x weekly from YVR.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Calfan12

At Calgary YYC is dominated by WestJet year round for Domestic/US/International flights & with AC stagnant has made Lynx/Flair happy to add new routes/ frequencies at YYC & also soon Canada Jetlines will eventually be happy about it too.

While at Edmonton YEG -Flair Airlines is building up a fortress,as they have added more Domestic/US/International flights at YEG compared to both Air Canada/ WestJet which have been stagnant last several years.

To be fair, Flair have much bigger op at YVR compared to YEG and YYC. They don't even have a base at YYC until next year. In fact, YVR had been Flair's second-biggest base behind YYZ for many years now.

From the current winter schedule, looks like Flair's requirement from YVR will be 5 planes. But that's mostly because all the announced routes so far tend to operates at the same time on the same day of the week. So either they have quite a few new routes not announced yet, or there will be some schedule shuffling coming up. Either way, they will need at least 4 planes at YVR this winter, unless there's some big cut coming up.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

To be fair, Flair have much bigger op at YVR compared to YEG and YYC. They don't even have a base at YYC until next year. In fact, YVR had been Flair's second-biggest base behind YYZ for many years now.

From the current winter schedule, looks like Flair's requirement from YVR will be 5 planes. But that's mostly because all the announced routes so far tend to operates at the same time on the same day of the week. So either they have quite a few new routes not announced yet, or there will be some schedule shuffling coming up. Either way, they will need at least 4 planes at YVR this winter, unless there's some big cut coming up.

Thanks for this info.

Calfan tends to mis-use the terms hub and fortress. Flair building a “fortress” at YEG - ummm yeah sure!

I actually didn’t realise Flair’s second largest base is at YVR.

Airlines as small as Flair, Lynx and Jetlines don’t have hubs let alone fortresses. They have operating bases.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Thanks for this info.

Calfan tends to mis-use the terms hub and fortress. Flair building a “fortress” at YEG - ummm yeah sure!

I actually didn’t realise Flair’s second largest base is at YVR.

Airlines as small as Flair, Lynx and Jetlines don’t have hubs let alone fortresses. They have operating bases.

I said second largest because most of the long trans-con routes are run by the YYZ base, so they need much more plane over there. But in term of flights, YVR actually have more thanks to the high frequency service between YVR and YEG/YYC.

Here are the top 10 airports departure+arrival for Flair:

Summer 2022:
YVR 157
YYZ 152
YEG 131
YYC 124
YKF 70
YXX 68
YHZ 62
YUL 58
YWG 54
YOW 46

Winter 2022:
YVR 162
YYZ 160
YEG 130
YYC 94
YXX 72
YKF 54
YUL 52
YWG 46
YOW 46
YHZ 34

Okay, I guess YVR and YYZ is not "much" bigger, but it's definitely bigger than the "fortress" hub at YEG for sure.

And I find it funny that YOW is a base, but YYC is not a base... All YYC flights are run with help from every other base, especially YXX.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Exactly.. The downgrade in seats happened between 2015 and 2016.

Since 2016, YVR has been served by a single daily A380.

So fast forward to summer 2023. There will be a large increase in seats compared to summer 2016 (7 years ago!) and every year since then.

The pattern in Western Canada over the last few years just shows how YVR is doing compared to other cities when it comes to Europe

BA pulls out of YYC but is adding significant frequencies and capacity at YVR
FI returns to YVR but not YEG
DE returns to YVR but not YYC and DE is increasing flights/capacity at YVR next summer as well (next summer YEG does get 2 weekly flights though)
LH maintains double daily YVR flights yet only recently returns to YYC with their heavily leisure arm Eurowings Discover (and limited seasonal at that only)
TK starts flights to YVR
WS maintains daily 789 flights to LGW despite the emphasis at YYC (which is really only 20 weekly European flights anyway) and doesn’t restart YEG
AC has added destinations and capacity at YVR while ending all YEG flights and holding YYC stagnant
KL, AF and WK all holding their own as well - AF indicating another crack at going daily next summer as well

The above should tell you something

Was it ever a competition between YYC/YEG and YVR though? I don't feel like you can really compare them because they're in completely different leagues. YVR punches above its weight with Europe for sure, but so does YYC and even YEG. And YVR has so much demand flying LGW isn't going to take away passengers from YYC.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by hehehe

Was it ever a competition between YYC/YEG and YVR though? I don't feel like you can really compare them because they're in completely different leagues. YVR punches above its weight with Europe for sure, but so does YYC and even YEG. And YVR has so much demand flying LGW isn't going to take away passengers from YYC.

Airports are always competing against each other trying to gain services. It’s very relevant.
And geographically very relevant as well.
I am clearly pointing out the pattern of what’s developed over the last year.
YVR making solid gains and definitely in a different league.
I disagree though, YEG is definitely not punching above its weight

[nname]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Airports are always competing against each other trying to gain services. It’s very relevant.

Yes, for instance, it is now less likely for YVR to get FCO after WS started it from YYC, or YYC is less likely to get NRT back when AC feeds connecting passengers through YVR, and to a lesser degree, YUL.

And if WS move BCN from YYZ to YYC, then it's less likely for YVR to get BCN.... even though both FCO and BCN are on my watch list for possible AC start.

So YVR and YYC do compete a lot for international service, so does YUL and YYZ, as well as YVR and YUL for international routes from AC's secondary hub behind YYZ.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

Yes, for instance, it is now less likely for YVR to get FCO after WS started it from YYC, or YYC is less likely to get NRT back when AC feeds connecting passengers through YVR, and to a lesser degree, YUL.

And if WS move BCN from YYZ to YYC, then it's less likely for YVR to get BCN.... even though both FCO and BCN are on my watch list for possible AC start.

So YVR and YYC do compete a lot for international service, so does YUL and YYZ, as well as YVR and YUL for international routes from AC's secondary hub behind YYZ.

Yup.

And despite AC’s hub at YVR - YVR continues to attract foreign carriers to Europe, Asia and Oceania. Whereas at YYC, as I’ve said, it is quite evident Westjet will continue to be a hindrance to other carriers there.
This of course also taking into account YVR’s disadvantage geographically compared to YYC when it comes to Europe.

Question - your list of Flair flights - is that flights per week?

[nname]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Question - your list of Flair flights - is that flights per week?

Arriving and departing flights per week. So probably need to divide by 2 to compare with figures with other airlines stats.

With current winter schedule, Flair is about 8% of AC and 18% of WS at YVR by departing flights.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Dude. Going from 12x weekly B744 pre-2016 to 13x weekly B772 is a downgrade in seats. Period.

Forget about LHR vs LGW for a minute. In seats alone, it's a downgrade.

Now, add in the fact most of those seats are now to LGW, and it's an even worse downgrade. You can hate what I'm saying all you want, doesn't make it untrue.

The A380 in between 2016 and 2022 was fun while it lasted I'm sure, but overall, in a 6 year timeframe, BA has downgraded service to YVR. End of story.

Color your glasses whichever way you want.



You have very limited connection options at LGW on BA.



You guess? lol. Of course it's better.

Pre 2016 is a different world, that was 7 years prior to 2023... Jesus Air Berlin was still in the air that long ago... who cares? I am not concerned with tracking against that nor is really anyone. I'm pretty sure everyone is tracking revival against the pandemic downturn and the bottom line is 2023 is a huge boost in seats compared to 2022 or 2019. Try and go as far back as you want to dump on YVR, as is your entire existence in this thread, but growth in seats YOY is good news no matter how you try to downplay any airport that isn't little ol' YUL.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

You guess? lol. Of course it's better.

Please explain again why having 3 flights to LHR and 1 to LGW with fewer seats is so much better than 3 flights to LGW and 2 to LGW with more seats? LGW has decent connections, but beyond that, to me it signifies there is more O&D between YVR and LON, which is great. I'd rather planes flying to London be for London destined passengers, thereby leaving more connecting pax available to grow routes with less O&D like Munich or Istanbul or to fly direct on new directs like DEL or DUB that have traditionally transited through LHR. YVR needs no help sending passengers to London just to transfer, frankly there's too much of that already.

[hollywoodcory]

UA has removed YVR-IAH for the winter schedule, currently scheduled to resume March 27.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Would 2x to LHR be better? I guess? For prestige?

And speaking of prestige, it's funny you should dismiss it now. Yet when BA replaced YVR with the A380 (which was another downgrade in seats, as well as frequency, which I'm sure I commented on back then), you were probably the one downplaying the downgrade and praising the "prestige" of the A380 gracing YVR's tarmac.

I guess prestige is fine when it suits you.....

Originally Posted by nname

Depends.

I don't know which version of 744 BA sent before switching to A380, but for the 772 without first class, the "Heathrow" version have almost the same number of seat as the lower-density 744, while the "Gatwick" version have the same number of seats as higher density 744. The only thing difference is more Y and less F and maybe C.

But there are definitely much more seats combined compared to single daily 388.

Nowadays airlines pack more people onto their 777 and even 787 than they ever did with their 747...

I doubt very much that BA was sending it's lowest density B744 to YVR. That plane had 100 first and club world seats. Highly likely it was the the denser version.

Originally Posted by hehehe

Was it ever a competition between YYC/YEG and YVR though? I don't feel like you can really compare them because they're in completely different leagues.

Of course you can't. Yet almost every single post of Johnny Aussies is a mention of how YVR is outperforming YYC on the international scene, as his focus is solely on western Canada.

Same garbage day in, day out. YVR's real competition in Canada is YYZ and YUL. But he dare not speak of any airport east of Alberta....

Here's the only stat you need to know, to see how YVR is doing on the international scene. Yes, I agree, YVR is doing very well to Europe. Who wouldn't. All 4 majors are.

But, before the pandemic, YVR was the second largest port of entry in the country, behind YYZ. Today, it is third. One reason. China. So until China opens up, YVR, in reality, is lagging behind YYZ and YUL, it's real competitors, on the international scene.

I've mentioned this before, how YVR and China are linked at the hip, and got crucified for it. Well. Doesn't make it untrue. Hence why I'm saying it again. Stats don't lie.

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Please explain again why having 3 flights to LHR and 1 to LGW with fewer seats is so much better than 3 flights to LGW and 2 to LGW with more seats?

1. Please don't bunch in AC/WS in the matter. I'm simply mentioning BA and its decreases in Canada of late, especially from LHR. Don't bunch in AC's or WS's frequency in this matter. That's beside the point.

2. Because it is.

Why else do you think airlines trip over each other bidding for LHR slots and pay millions for them. LHR's status, it's capacity constraint, it's location near central London, the connectivity it provides, is unmatched for a city in one of Europe's largest markets. So the more flights your airport has to LHR, the better. I'm pretty sure YVR's CEO would agree with me....

The main point is BA is severely downgrading capacity on LHR-YVR next summer, by around half. End of story. No sense denying it. You're grasping at straws, unsuccessfully.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Try and go as far back as you want to dump on YVR, as is your entire existence in this thread, but growth in seats YOY is good news no matter how you try to downplay any airport that isn't little ol' YUL.

Sad isn’t it. Easier to ignore really.

At the end of the day the growth in seats and having 10 carriers flying to Europe from YVR is very impressive.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

And speaking of prestige, it's funny you should dismiss it now. Yet when BA replaced YVR with the A380 (which was another downgrade in seats, as well as frequency, which I'm sure I commented on back then), you were probably the one downplaying the downgrade and praising the "prestige" of the A380 gracing YVR's tarmac.

I guess prestige is fine when it suits you.....

Probably?

Great debate technique there champ.

I was excited about getting the 380, no doubt, but in the exact post I noted the decline in seats but was hopeful they would be replaced by a few per week frequencies in addition. I was not correct, as they were not replaced, but I did not just dismiss the loss of seats as worth it due to prestige.

And this time I shared by dismay that the 380 is likely leaving, but pointed out the silver lining of seat growth.

But hey keep arguing with probably and assumptions, looks great on ya....

1. Please don't bunch in AC/WS in the matter. I'm simply mentioning BA and its decreases in Canada of late, especially from LHR. Don't bunch in AC's or WS's frequency in this matter. That's beside the point.

2. Because it is.

Why else do you think airlines trip over each other bidding for LHR slots and pay millions for them. LHR's status, it's capacity constraint, it's location near central London, the connectivity it provides, is unmatched for a city in one of Europe's largest markets. So the more flights your airport has to LHR, the better. I'm pretty sure YVR's CEO would agree with me....

The main point is BA is severely downgrading capacity on LHR-YVR next summer, by around half. End of story. No sense denying it. You're grasping at straws, unsuccessfully.

But that's not the end of story. If they only dropped LHR by half then it would be end of story, but they added more seats, so its not the end of story. Not at all. You can dismiss LGW as an airport that somehow doesn't count, but for the rest of us who aren't trolls it's quite clearly a good consolation and has it's benefits too.

Airlines trip over themselves for LHR because they can charge a premium, especially for business travelers. But as a consumer that doesn't help me, at all.

As well, I highly doubt the CEO of YVR would prefer 1000 flights to LHR over 2000 flights to LGW, because the latter adds more passengers, more spend and more fees, especially when the airport already has multiple other flights to LHR. It's basic common sense, and the reason airports track passengers served, not weighted passengers served, with LHR PAX with a 1.5 weighting to every lowly LGW passenger.

Bottom line is: BA is increasing its service to YVR BY 30% in one year, and yet somehow you are here trying to tell us this is bad news... and that's the end of the god damn story.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Of course you can't. Yet almost every single post of Johnny Aussies is a mention of how YVR is outperforming YYC on the international scene, as his focus is solely on western Canada.

Same garbage day in, day out. YVR's real competition in Canada is YYZ and YUL. But he dare not speak of any airport east of Alberta....

Here's the only stat you need to know, to see how YVR is doing on the international scene. Yes, I agree, YVR is doing very well to Europe. Who wouldn't. All 4 majors are.

But, before the pandemic, YVR was the second largest port of entry in the country, behind YYZ. Today, it is third. One reason. China. So until China opens up, YVR, in reality, is lagging behind YYZ and YUL, it's real competitors, on the international scene.

I've mentioned this before, how YVR and China are linked at the hip, and got crucified for it. Well. Doesn't make it untrue. Hence why I'm saying it again. Stats don't lie.

I appreciate your analysis of the situation, particularly YVR's main competition being YYZ and YUL.
First off, as you say, YVR and China are joined at the hip, and that's the only reason YVR overtook YUL as Canada's second-busiest airport. And yes, the Chinese cutbacks have affected YVR deeply.

But from another POV, both YUL and YYZ, while not "joined at the hip" to their overseas destinations (apart from the universal cities like LHR, CDG, FRA, AMS and several other key destinations), are different. Firstly, both cities are much larger markets than Vancouver {Montreal metro 4.2 million, Toronto metro 6.5 million, roughly the size of Houston or Dallas), plus a different demographic profile: both cities with large European populations, Jewish, Eastern European, Latin America, as well as (esp in Montreal), large enough Maghrebian populations to create a market for Casablanca, Algiers, and Tunis. Montreal has 4x daily to Paris, I believe, year-round to Lyon, and seasonal to Toulouse, Nice, Marseille, Bordeaux, and Nantes.

The large Portuguese market in Toronto gives YYZ Lisbon, Porto, and Faro, with Madrid thrown in, along with cities like Rome, Cairo, Tel Aviv, and Vienna all year round.
Numerous seasonal routes from both cities too, such as Zagreb, Venice, Athens, Barcelona, and a new stop in Milan. And don't forget
that Toronto has a sizeable Asian population, too, an (normally) a hefty number of East Asian destinations.

And of course, for YYZ, EK to DXB, and Qatar to DOH along with Air Canada) Montreal having to content itself with simply Qt to DOH.

It is this kind of market that keeps both YYZ and YUL way, way ahead of YVR, very noticeable now that the Chinese market has had the "plug pulled" on it for the time being,
the other factor being the much shorter distance over the Atlantic from YYZ/YUL than the polar long hauls from YVR.

Plus of course BOG, LIM, SCL, and GRU, though I am not sure what percentage of overseas traffic SA comprises.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Sad isn’t it. Easier to ignore really.

It really is sad. He goes around to other airports threads trying to big up his own little airport by taking shots at others. It honestly just reeks of insecurity.