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  #561  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2022, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by feckless View Post
Saying 'within an hour' was casual talk, not an estimate. You'll see we agree when I made a further post that estimates the real time at slightly under 30 minutes to clear the crowd and that seems very reasonable.
Yep, understood, and we do agree. I don’t see that as being unreasonable at all, particularly given that you will have a chunk of the crowd that lingers in the arena, in boxes and restaurants, which will spread out the flow. Another chunk will walk to nearby bars, so the real number heading immediately out on transit is likely south of 10,000.

The distance to the stations will be helpful to spread out the crowd as well. Obviously good pedestrian connections will be important, but I went to the site last week to have a look and when you look are there in the empty field,the distances to both stations look very manageable.
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  #562  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2022, 11:01 PM
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I think people are underestimating the role of proper crowd control in all of this. From what I have read online and experienced myself on Canada Day and during Bluesfest, crowd control has been an absolute gongshow.

Specifically on Canada Day, there was unexpected fencing everywhere blocking peoples' intended exit routes, inadequate signage notifying people of detours they must take, with said detours leading people on long, roundabout, unnatural patterns, it was horrible. And worst of all, there had, and continues to be, not been nearly enough staff directing crowds on where to go, and the staff they do have are horribly misinformed and lack a cohesive message. Lots of mixed messaging causing people to backtrack, which is what has been causing most of the chaos. Not lack of capacity on the O-Train.

The whole time I was in that mess, I couldn't help but contrast it with my experience living in Montreal and attending the F1 Grand Prix and Osheaga many times. The GP is held on Ile-Notre-Dame, adjacent to Jean Drapeau Park. Pretty much the only access to the site is via Jean Drapeau metro station. The GP attracts 300K+ people over the three days and almost all of them are trying to leave at once after the final session each day. What's worse, is that they are almost all trying to use the same platform at the station, since the other direction heads toward Longueuil. Of course, the metro has a much higher capacity than the O-Train, but still not enough to handle that many more people.

So what's the solution? The army of STM/city police officers who direct crowds loudly, clearly, and cohesively. Leaving the site, you approach Jean Drapeau station and take your place in a massive lineup outside the station, which appears chaotic at first but you soon realize it's quite orderly. Every few minutes, you move forward a few steps, as another trainload of people is cleared away. All the while, you have cops yelling assertively, yet respectfully, to encourage people to keep moving whenever possible and to have your fare ready as you approach the gates. As you pass the fare gates and inch forward and down towards platform level, you encounter dozens of cops forming a literal human barrier when the platform has reached capacity to avoid a crush situation where people are pushed onto the tracks. When a train departs and the platform is cleared. The cops yield to the next batch, who are promptly encouraged to go as far down the platform as possible, and to use the full depth of the platform. I cannot emphasize enough how intently they encourage you to use all available space on the platform - every inch of the platform is used, but you are never so tight that you are pushed around thanks to the well-controlled platform access. Once you get on the train, you feel like you have spent an hour+ waiting since the time you arrived at the station. However, you check your watch and realize it's only been 20-25 minutes, which is more than reasonable for a crowd of that magnitude.

Of course, you also need cooperation from the public to make it happen so seamlessly. It'd be easy to see the massive line as you approach the station and try and filter your way to the front, leading to pushing/shoving. But the main reason people remain patient is because they know that, even though the process feels long, they will get through in a timely manner (and because there are cops everywhere watching the crowd like hawks, discouraging disorder).

The above is EXACTLY what Ottawa needs to learn how to do during big events like Canada Day or big acts at Bluesfest. No haphazard adjustments, no sending people in the opposite direction to make them someone else's problem, etc. Just a clear, well thought-out strategy that is repeated until the whole crowd is fed through.

As far as events at the future Lebreton arena, we just need a scaled back, yet equally definitive strategy to manage crowds in the 17-18K range, and I think the O-Train will be able to manage just fine that way.
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  #563  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2022, 12:46 AM
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Yup, I'm pretty confident in the O-Trains capability of moving the Corel Centre 2.0's crowd. Between three directions of travel by train, many who will walk/cycle home, the few who will drive, those who will stick around after the game for dinner or a drink and, this hasn't been mentioned much yet, those who will head home to the Quebec side.

For the distance to the stations, we only need to look at the current walk through a barren parking lot. Over 600 meters for parking spots furthest from the door.
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  #564  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2022, 12:58 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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I agree with the points above about clearing the crowd at full capacity.

I'm stuck on the large amounts of corral fencing covering the entire booth overpass and the apparent inability to perform crowd control to the platform. There's gotta be a better way. We can't be just closing all the streets and fencing everything to high heaven whenever there's an event at the Corel Centre 2.0 (like that name too).

I was in North Chicago a few years ago and there were wild crowds of people trying to board trains all along the line after a big event. It was a free for all, with traffic, pushing, yelling, and no control (but it was an 'up the stairs' type of station, so falling up the stairs wasn't so much of an issue, although if you've seen chicago transit it's entirely sketchy cast iron everything). Definitely an intense experience, but still 20 minutes of a wild jam of people.
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  #565  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2022, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
(but it was an 'up the stairs' type of station, so falling up the stairs wasn't so much of an issue
Post arena traffic could be routed up the stairs at the lower Pimisi entrance and the lower Bayview entrance, would avoid falls.

I've suggested a few times over the last couple of years that the ncc should have built a temporary pathway for Bluesfest / Canada Day from the intersection midway at Lebreton Flats Park, through the currently barren flats section, over the old bridge over the aquaduct and connect to the current Pimisi path allowing access to the lower Pimisi entrance

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  #566  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2022, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere View Post
Post arena traffic could be routed up the stairs at the lower Pimisi entrance and the lower Bayview entrance, would avoid falls.

I've suggested a few times over the last couple of years that the ncc should have built a temporary pathway for Bluesfest / Canada Day from the intersection midway at Lebreton Flats Park, through the currently barren flats section, over the old bridge over the aquaduct and connect to the current Pimisi path allowing access to the lower Pimisi entrance
That's a great idea.
There is in fact a perfectly fine gravel service road used by NCC maintenance trucks that connects to the new MUP:



Would've been really easy to pave it and have people use it at all times, not just Bluesfest.
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  #567  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2022, 6:22 PM
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Presumably when the Trillium Line opens again, there will be better access for Lebreton Flats events. However, Canada Day is our biggest event and presumably it will eventually return to Parliament Hill. This means that most people will be dependent of the Confed Line. It is not realistic to expect people to walk to Bayview to go southward. Will we be prepared for that?
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  #568  
Old Posted Jul 15, 2022, 1:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownandDown View Post
I agree with the points above about clearing the crowd at full capacity.

I'm stuck on the large amounts of corral fencing covering the entire booth overpass and the apparent inability to perform crowd control to the platform. There's gotta be a better way. We can't be just closing all the streets and fencing everything to high heaven whenever there's an event at the Corel Centre 2.0 (like that name too).

I was in North Chicago a few years ago and there were wild crowds of people trying to board trains all along the line after a big event. It was a free for all, with traffic, pushing, yelling, and no control (but it was an 'up the stairs' type of station, so falling up the stairs wasn't so much of an issue, although if you've seen chicago transit it's entirely sketchy cast iron everything). Definitely an intense experience, but still 20 minutes of a wild jam of people.
The fencing on Booth Street during Bluesfest is to create an emergency lane for fire or ambulance access while the street is crowded. It wouldn't be required for events in a future arena as the crowd wouldn't be walking down the street.

OC has been effective in platform crowd control, but doesn't have to do it often. Generally, the staircases are the limiting factor and the platforms don't get crowded easily. At peak times, they close an entrance for a minute until the platforms clear. Splitting the entrances east and west allows the two halves of the platform to be regulated and controlled separately, even if the platform itself is shared.
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  #569  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2022, 3:42 AM
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  #570  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2022, 4:32 AM
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Awesome shot when I look through my OttawaFutureLenseVision. The present day Downtown/Centretown skyline sucks though. It's truly horrible.
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  #571  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2022, 8:13 PM
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Those critical of the huge park space in the master plan. What if....

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Originally Posted by Maldive View Post
The first phase i(Lower Don Lands) is 125 hectares (308 acres) which will eventually include a new community on (the newly-created) Villiers Island.

Below is a rendering posted a while back whichttps://skyscraperpage.com/forum/images_pb/editor/bold.gifh was released along with news of a $25 Million private donation towards a Sculpture Trail along the new river path (NOTE: the cheesy sculpture placeholders are… just cheesy sculpture placeholders. The art will likely come from a curated competition).

Gives a good look at the massing of the new community.

UT

AlvinofDiaspora

The longer term Portlands redevelopment plans are in excess of 880 acres and include employment areas such as the new Media Basin Hub (studios, post-production etc.) which is already approved.

So if you work in film/tv… you can live in the downtown paradise Villiers Island will be one day… and walk to work at Pinewood Studios or the new Media Hub.
I haven't had the chance to really check what's in there, but it seems far more interesting than most of our green spaces.
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  #572  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2022, 12:36 AM
originalmuffins originalmuffins is offline
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Those critical of the huge park space in the master plan. What if....



I haven't had the chance to really check what's in there, but it seems far more interesting than most of our green spaces.
If this was actually what was planned for the park space, I'd say nothing but be happy. But we all know what they will do:

Patch of grass and all of a sudden it's a "world class landmark".

It needs to be this, it needs to have boardwalks, it needs to have amazing waterfront integration even during the winter months and heated areas that can still be utilized throughout the winter. Add in a ferris wheel or an aquarium+patio area with integration to one side of the waterfront and connection to the rest of the parkland? Perfect.

If we get anything remotely close to this, I'm fine. But I doubt it, which is why I'm skeptical and not happy with it being so large.
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  #573  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2022, 1:56 AM
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Echoing what's already been said, I don't mind the amount of land the NCC has allocated to the Park district, I'm more concerned that they will underutilize it. I'm worried it will consist of mostly "re-naturalized" lands, aka overgrown, unusable space.
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  #574  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2022, 12:46 PM
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I'm keeping the faith. NCC should be able to raise a decent amount of funds through sales and leases of land at LeBreton to do something good. Today's NCC is generally far better than the NCC of 20 years ago.
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  #575  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2022, 10:36 PM
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Not quite in the Escarpment District but close, one spot that could be interesting for a bistro is on the old stone Booth street bridge underneath the new one ("Tavern Under the Bridge"?). It's a large covered space looking for a good use. You can watch the LRT slide in and out of Pimisi Station while you sip your beer, it also has good sight lines to the CBD and the Aqueduct. You can even have fairly loud live performances there and hardly anyone would complain (for now).





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  #576  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2022, 1:29 AM
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Looks like a fine place to sip $15 incl. tax+tip self-serve 'Tavern on the...' beers, with a little decoration, of course.
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  #577  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2022, 3:13 AM
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Not sure about a bistro here. It seems so out of everyone's way and not much of a destination, at least until the Library opens. Watching LRT seems pretty niche

I think "Tavern on the Dam" on the Chaudière Falls has more potential.

I love what House of PainT did under Dunbar bridge. This could've been a nice place for something like that. Maybe a little skate park.

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  #578  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 11:44 AM
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Certainly something cool could be done down there, whatever that might be.
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  #579  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 9:08 AM
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Did they ever mention what they're going to do with the lands to the right of the War museum? I know the Holocaust Memorial is there, but there's a huge parcel of land with nothing named and it seems like nothing is really planned for it.
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  #580  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2022, 1:14 PM
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Did they ever mention what they're going to do with the lands to the right of the War museum? I know the Holocaust Memorial is there, but there's a huge parcel of land with nothing named and it seems like nothing is really planned for it.
Gotta leave that open for future politically motivated "nationally significant" monuments that will litter our city for years to come. If Pollievre gets in, expect a monument to the brave and patriotic Freedom Truckers who did nothing wrong. If the Liberals get in again, expect a monument to the outstanding ethical practices of SNC Lavalin.
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