Building LeBreton Flats - Master Planning

[J.OT13]

William van Geest ������
@WVangeest
Checking out
@BikeOttawa
’s ✨impressive✨ bike parking operation at
@ottawabluesfest
. I think I overheard that they’re almost at capacity—but tell me again how people don’t bike in #OttCity ������ #OttBike





9:33 PM · Jul 10, 2022·Twitter for iPhone

https://twitter.com/WVangeest/status...a4D0_ZpvEYFIww

As suggested someone on the Rail Fans Canada Discord, we should really consider an Amsterdam type bike parking garage at LeBreton for the arena.

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[Kitchissippi]

I'd love to see an automated underground bike parking system like the have in Japan:

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or maybe silo type like this:

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[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I'd love to see an automated underground bike parking system like the have in Japan:

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or maybe silo type like this:

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While it would be cool, the problem is it probably wouldn't be maintained here and thus it would frequently break down, stranding bikes inside it until eventually the city gives up.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by feckless

There should be secured bike parking at EVERY transit station within the core but...here we are. If I knew my bike from suburbia would actually be safe, i'd gladly bike to the LRT and take it. Currently I'm stuck with car and perhaps crappy parking (Blair) or buses that are unreliable and not frequent enough.

Agreed. Doesn't even need to be Amsterdam style. Vancouver does it very well.

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I use Blair, which isn't too bad. Very exposed area, so I doubt a locked bike would get stolen during the day. Problem is the non-existent bike infrastructure to get there.

But, yeah, Vancouver style parking should be at most stations between Blair and Algonquin, with many of them useful for longer term parking (St. Laurent inter-city bus depot and VIA Rail) and areas well connected to NCC pathways.

[LRTeverywhere]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Agreed. Doesn't even need to be Amsterdam style. Vancouver does it very well.

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I don't know, too me thats not thinking big enough, if we add these they need to be good for a long time and that is already dated and small compared to amsterdam style. (It doesn't even have an automatic door!)

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

I don't know, too me thats not thinking big enough, if we add these they need to be good for a long time and that is already dated and small compared to amsterdam style. (It doesn't even have an automatic door!)

This would be more than enough for many stations. Could have regular type parking like we have now to supplement these.

I agree that LeBreton and Lansdowne (which is not served by transit), both well connected to our path networks and home to our big events should have Amsterdam type bike parking. We should probably have one or two of those downtown as well (Place de Ville and City Hall?, the future new Market building?), but not every transit station.

[OTownandDown]

This type of concierge style bike parking is a well oiled machine at all Ottawa events. Arguably there are more of these types of bike parking services provided during huge events at Mooney's bay during the year.

Are we really going to spend a few million dollars on an above ground bike parkade next to the Holocaust memorial? Or a few tens of millions on a below-ground parkade for one week per year?

For commuters, you can get a self-insured mama-jama bike lock for $100 and have the peace of mind that your bike is secure.

Rant Warning:

LOL, how about spending that money on expanding the platforms at Pimisi. It's absolute chaos there after every show, and Canada Day was a sh*t show, with dangerous corrals and potential for crowd surges, knocked-down fencing, and really just general unsecure chaos outside of the show. My partner was flabbergasted that after all of these events, buses are lined up to cart people away east and west, and the train station is closed. Even when I tried to explain the instant load capacity of 50 buses ready to go vs. the 200 person limit on the train platform. (we did hike to Bayview and caught a train no problem)

Originally Posted by J.OT13

This would be more than enough for many stations. Could have regular type parking like we have now to supplement these.

I agree that LeBreton and Lansdowne (which is not served by transit), both well connected to our path networks and home to our big events should have Amsterdam type bike parking. We should probably have one or two of those downtown as well (Place de Ville and City Hall?, the future new Market building?), but not every transit station.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

This type of concierge style bike parking is a well oiled machine at all Ottawa events. Arguably there are more of these types of bike parking services provided during huge events at Mooney's bay during the year.

Are we really going to spend a few million dollars on an above ground bike parkade next to the Holocaust memorial? Or a few tens of millions on a below-ground parkade for one week per year?

It wouldn't be for one event. It could be 150+ per year at LeBreton (with arena) and Lansdowne, each.

And while we're building new arenas or towers, now's the time to build that bike parking garage, which would likely be far cheaper than a car parking garage anyway. Why is it we question bike parking but never car parking?

For commuters, you can get a self-insured mama-jama bike lock for $100 and have the peace of mind that your bike is secure.

Not everyone has $100 for a bike lock.

Rant Warning:

LOL, how about spending that money on expanding the platforms at Pimisi. It's absolute chaos there after every show, and Canada Day was a sh*t show, with dangerous corrals and potential for crowd surges, knocked-down fencing, and really just general unsecure chaos outside of the show. My partner was flabbergasted that after all of these events, buses are lined up to cart people away east and west, and the train station is closed. Even when I tried to explain the instant load capacity of 50 buses ready to go vs. the 200 person limit on the train platform. (we did hike to Bayview and caught a train no problem)

With proper bike infra and rail extensions south and west, that should be less of an issue post-Stage 2. Foot traffic will be divided between three stations (Pimisi and Bayview upper and lower). Gatineau residents will be able to walk across the PoW or Chaudière to their tramway. More options will be available at LeBreton by then to better dissipate the crowds throughout the day/night. Having three entrances open at Pimisi instead of just one would help as well.

[zzptichka]

I agree, building a bike parkade at Lebreton doesn't make much sense.

Also, from what I heard, these volunteer-run valet parking lots are Bike Ottawa's biggest fundraising and membership drives of the year. This is a great opportunity to onboard new people to advocacy and I hope they make good use of it.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Rant Warning:

LOL, how about spending that money on expanding the platforms at Pimisi. It's absolute chaos there after every show, and Canada Day was a sh*t show, with dangerous corrals and potential for crowd surges, knocked-down fencing, and really just general unsecure chaos outside of the show. My partner was flabbergasted that after all of these events, buses are lined up to cart people away east and west, and the train station is closed. Even when I tried to explain the instant load capacity of 50 buses ready to go vs. the 200 person limit on the train platform. (we did hike to Bayview and caught a train no problem)

The crowds there definitely had the potential to be dangerous.

I was watching the fireworks on the east side of booth street sitting on the black railing at the start of the bridge.

There were fences along both sidewalks as well as some type of segregation in the roadway.

After the fireworks ended the entire crowd close to me started walking north on the sidewalk. Roughly 100 meters from the station the fencing squared off and access beyond that was not permitted with a few security guards telling us to turn back.

This could has easily been a crowd crush situation. People a few meters back have no idea we are all being told to turn around. I wasn't having any of it. I was at the head of the crowd . I told them to stuff it and yelled something about Hillsboro disaster... The pair of guys I was with and myself all jumped the fence and turned and encouraged everyone to do the same.

Normally I would have just grabbed the section of fence and moved it out of the way but I was drunk and didn't feel like a potential police encounter.

The entire Canada Day event was nothing but fences everywhere. I couldn't even cross into zibi and observe the power dam and boardwalk. Easily my favorite area in the city.

The entire crowd control and funneling situation there left a bad taste in my mouth. I've never seen that much fencing in my life. I'm Glad I was at the front of that crowd and encouraged everyone to continue forward. Take my word that it was the safer option.

I didn't even want the train either. We were heading to The Prescott.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

The crowds there definitely had the potential to be dangerous.

I was watching the fireworks on the east side of booth street sitting on the black railing at the start of the bridge.

There were fences along both sidewalks as well as some type of segregation in the roadway.

After the fireworks ended the entire crowd close to me started walking north on the sidewalk. Roughly 100 meters from the station the fencing squared off and access beyond that was not permitted with a few security guards telling us to turn back.

This could has easily been a crowd crush situation. People a few meters back have no idea we are all being told to turn around. I wasn't having any of it. I was at the head of the crowd . I told them to stuff it and yelled something about Hillsboro disaster... The pair of guys I was with and myself all jumped the fence and turned and encouraged everyone to do the same.

Normally I would have just grabbed the section of fence and moved it out of the way but I was drunk and didn't feel like a potential police encounter.

The entire Canada Day event was nothing but fences everywhere. I couldn't even cross into zibi and observe the power dam and boardwalk. Easily my favorite area in the city.

The entire crowd control and funneling situation there left a bad taste in my mouth. I've never seen that much fencing in my life. I'm Glad I was at the front of that crowd and encouraged everyone to continue forward. Take my word that it was the safer option.

I didn't even want the train either. We were heading to The Prescott.

Reading this story, it's easy to see your namesake!



Funneling everyone down Booth towards Albert was a puzzling choice. I think they had even closed some pathways through LeBreton headed west. They closed the Chaudière Bridge, I know that. Had they let people just leave wherever, it could have dissipated the crowd.

[OTownandDown]

During the Canada Day concert, I had intended on leaving the Lebreton site along the SJAM walking west, however it was all closed off. I was pissed at the time, because the fencing and corrals east of Lebreton was way too much for me.

So an hour before fireworks time, we crossed the Booth bridge, and westbound trains were already skipping Pimisi, so we walked to Bayview.

It quickly became apparent that the fireworks were laid down on the SJAM just north of Bayview. Excellent choice for us to see the fireworks, and the reason why it was all closed off (bike paths, SJAM, full perimeter fencing).

[lrt's friend]

So, another one of my predictions came true, that the Confed Line was not designed to handle major events properly. More and more, we see how value engineering is simply being short sighted. As our city grows, what happens? Doesn't it get worse? I presume it wasn't even possible to put 15 trains into service, and we could never put more than the expected 15 trains into service for major events despite more trains supposedly available from the Phase 2 contract. It is clear that we under configured the line and platforms cannot handle the necessary throughput safely.

With the limited capacity of the Trillium Line, do they just shut it down too, and replace it with buses for major events?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So, another one of my predictions came true, that the Confed Line was not designed to handle major events properly. More and more, we see how value engineering is simply being short sighted. As our city grows, what happens? Doesn't it get worse? I presume it wasn't even possible to put 15 trains into service, and we could never put more than the expected 15 trains into service for major events despite more trains supposedly available from the Phase 2 contract. It is clear that we under configured the line and platforms cannot handle the necessary throughput safely.

With the limited capacity of the Trillium Line, do they just shut it down too, and replace it with buses for major events?

You want a transit system that can seamlessly handle Canada day after fireworks?

My understanding is our system is expandable but frankly I see overbuilt as the likely in hindsight view in 10 years rather than underbuilt. It will be hemorrhaging money if WFH really takes hold unless cars disappear.

[Catenary]

The train has seemed to cope quite well after most nights of Bluesfest. Lineups have been minimal, and usually under 10 minutes at even the busiest times. Most nights trains have been available in both directions through the entire evening, with no restrictions. When they do restrict westbound to buses, I've heard it has more to do with managing the buses through Tunney's than anything to do with Pimisi - easier to load a large crowd once at Pimisi where the resources are already centralized. When the train is extended west and Tunney's isn't a pinch point, things will be different.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by feckless

I've read that the platforms are designed to go from 90m to 120m in the tunnel locations and even bigger in the non tunnel locations allowing for more cars....is the one in question already more than 90?

So the subway stations are already designed for the ultimate capacity while the surface station platforms can be lengthened when required to meet growing ridership. In the nearer-term, additional train modules can be added and arrival frequencies increased to expand capacity without needing construction work.

So when maxed out you'd clear the New Palladium™ within an hour.

Underground platforms were built to 120 meters from the get-go since lengthen them after the fact would be disruptive and expensive. Surface, including Pimisi and Bayview upper were built at 90 for future extension to 120 however, it now looks like they will only extend them to 100 meters when the time comes based on the GeoOttawa Rail Implementation layer. The idea is that the trains cabs have no doors, so the platforms don't need to be as long as the trains.

https://maps.ottawa.ca/geoottawa/

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You want a transit system that can seamlessly handle Canada day after fireworks?

My understanding is our system is expandable but frankly I see overbuilt as the likely in hindsight view in 10 years rather than underbuilt. It will be hemorrhaging money if WFH really takes hold unless cars disappear.

The answer is yes. We bought a subway because capacity was to be so much larger than the surface bus transitway.

The question remains on how many trains were running and how many trains are available. It is normal to have some surplus capacity available. This is one of the reasons why the Confed Line got off to such a rough start. No surplus capacity.

We should not revert back to buses because trains and train platforms cannot handle the number of passengers. Perhaps, a hybrid solution would work. Buses to the south end, for example.

Anyways, can't we control access to the stations to make sure they are not overwhelmed? It seems to me that this was discussed on this board at some point in the past.

I don't expect that crowd clearance should be immediate but it seems like the trains simply can't handle it.

[lrt's friend]

So when maxed out you'd clear the New Palladium™ within an hour.

This is unacceptable. This is worse than leaving the CTC. We are pushed to transit to end up with worse travel times??? This cannot be the goal of a downtown arena.

This is no different that the fallacy that people will distribute themselves to two different stations and why we can't have direct arena access to a station. People will quickly learn which is the closest station and go there. And people will be unhappy having to walk a distance outside in Ottawa's January and February weather.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is unacceptable. This is worse than leaving the CTC. We are pushed to transit to end up with worse travel times??? This cannot be the goal of a downtown arena.

This is no different that the fallacy that people will distribute themselves to two different stations and why we can't have direct arena access to a station. People will quickly learn which is the closest station and go there. And people will be unhappy having to walk a distance outside in Ottawa's January and February weather.

I don’t think that estimate makes much sense. It’s assuming a capacity of 20,000 plus and 100% transit modal share. It also ignores the fact that a portion of the crowd will go directly south from Bayview. Actual capacity is more likely to be 17,000 or so and a transit modal share of 70% would be a big success. So you are more looking at a half hour to clear the transit crowd, which is definitely in line with what I’ve seen in other cities.

As for people distributing themselves between stations, it will depend. If you look at Saputo Stadium in Montreal, that is exactly what happens. The pedestrian route to Viau isn’t great, so I’m not sure how they achieve that. But I think it may be that people going west go to the easternmost station to get a jump on the crowd and vice versa. However, with the Ottawa arena being closer to Bayview where two lines converge, I think you can expect most of the crowd to head there.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is no different that the fallacy that people will distribute themselves to two different stations and why we can't have direct arena access to a station. People will quickly learn which is the closest station and go there. And people will be unhappy having to walk a distance outside in Ottawa's January and February weather.

That is assuming 100% transit usage for arena attendees, when in reality, many will walk, arrive on local buses or chartered shuttles, or even drive (there will likely be limited underground parking for VIPs / suites and there will always be those who will park on side streets in the vicinity). Additionally, many attendees will be coming/going from the south end using Line 2, so Line 1 will not have to handle the load from those passengers.

Bayview and Pimisi are also both less than 400m from the arena site (depending on whether you use the presumed access point at Albert / City Centre (Bayview) or Albert / Preston (Pimisi). I don't think the distance is as big a deal as some people are making it out to be. As far as load dispersal, I imagine it will go something like this: those travelling east will learn to use Pimisi and those heading west will use Bayview. On top of that, you will get the forward-thinkers who will try to beat the crowd by using the alternate station (e.g. backtrack and use Bayview when heading east to beat the crowd awaiting at Pimisi). This should help disperse the load across all available platform space.