What is the least "WASP" city in the United States?

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Well, no devout Catholic would consider themself a WASP.

Well culturally they are very different. I remember reading somewhere that Jackie Kennedy O. felt out of place at the very WASPy girls school she went to when she was a teen or something; I can imagine, especially for a pre-1970/Vatican II Catholic. She would've not eaten any red meat every Friday of the whole year, would've had to keep explaining the ashes on her forehead one Wednesday out of the year (hehe)... She probably took some jabs for all of it.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Quixote

The late JFK Jr. and his wife Carolyn Bessette were a great example of preppy Catholics who were culturally WASP.

JFK Jr. grew up in the White House, lived in Georgetown for a few years after his father's assassination, and then settled on the Upper East Side. He was 75% Irish Catholic. His father (JFK) was from Boston, while his mother (Jacqueline Bouvier) was born in Southampton, NY to a family of pedigree and raised Catholic. She was half Irish on one side and French, Scottish, and English on the other. She grew up in Manhattan, the Hamptons, and McLean, VA, and her step-father had a home in Newport, RI.

Carolyn Bessette was born in White Plains, NY (Westchester) and grew up in Greenwich (Fairfield). She was half Italian and at least part French-Canadian, and was raised Catholic. She attended Boston University and then worked as a saleswoman at Calvin Klein at the Chestnut Hill Mall in Newton, MA before moving to Manhattan.

The couple died when their plane crashed while on the way to Martha's Vineyard, where they were going to drop off Carolyn's sister, before attending a family wedding at the Kennedy compound in Hyannis Port (Cape Cod).

And even with all of this total WASPy background, JFK and Jackie were NEVER accepted by "society" and outright hated by the "American aristocracy" specifically because of their non-WASP ancestry/religion. Conspiracy theories abound about the assassination.

[Bailey]

Originally Posted by pj3000

And even with all of this total WASPy background, JFK and Jackie were NEVER accepted by "society" and outright hated by the "American aristocracy" specifically because of their non-WASP ancestry/religion. Conspiracy theories abound about the assassination.

One conspiracy theory is that the hit was conducted by the New Orleans Mafia.

I guess one non- WASP group (Italians) going after another (Irish) proved their point that the WASPs were more civilized.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I think that the terms are somewhat interchangeable, considering that in order to have "old money" one had to be white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant. And there is still a below-the-surface "nativist" attitude that exists in northeastern states particularly... like if your last name is Lombardi, Jablonski, or Finkelstein... well, you're not really American.

it makes sense that association would be more strong in the northeast (and possibly the old south). "old money" is a lot older back there.

in "new" cities of the interior like chicago, the era of yankee dominance was fairly short-lived and pretty tightly compressed as there wasn't nearly as much "before" time before all those "damn immigrants" completely inundated the place. there was more of a "clean state" feeling out here. or maybe just less "deeply entrenched establishment" is a better way to put it. in a weird way, this might be one of the few ways that chicago is more aligned with the big cities of cali than it is with the old colonial bos-wash cities.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by pj3000

And even with all of this total WASPy background, JFK and Jackie were NEVER accepted by "society" and outright hated by the "American aristocracy" specifically because of their non-WASP ancestry/religion. Conspiracy theories abound about the assassination.

Oh absolutely. My partner and I have had discussions about this; we think it is no coincidence that the US' first Catholic president was assassinated.

It was considered a big deal when JFK was elected President. Even in 1960 when he was running for Prez, his loyalty to the US was still being questioned by many people. It was even brought up during the televised Presidential debates. American Catholics weren't seen as being "fully loyal" to the US, but instead loyal to the Pope (who is also the head of state of another country, technically).

I read somewhere that in every Catholic church in the US, they always display an American flag for this very reason, kind of like how Arab convenience store owners displayed American flags immediately after 9/11, as if to say "We're American too." Most Catholic churches in other countries don't display a national flag, but in the US, they do, as if to prove that they're loyal Americans.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

And think about how it was a huge deal that JFK was the nation's first Catholic president. Every single president from 1776 to 1961 was a WASP. And then there wasn't another non-WASP until Obama... and Biden is only the 3rd non-WASP out of 46!

Every one was white, and protestant, but not Anglo-Saxon, even if we take the broadest interpretation. Marten Van Buren was of 100% Dutch ancestry The Hudson Valley Dutch-speaking elite were completely assimilated into WASP high society by the late 19th century, but Van Buren grew up speaking Dutch at home! He was not a WASP.

If we want to get even more technical James Polk, James Buchannan, and Woodrow Wilson all lacked any English ancestry, being entirely Scottish and/or Scotch-Irish. The first two were born dirt-poor in log cabins, and the latter was from pretty a humble background as well. Though of course, there were far more Presidents than this who grew up poor.

Trump also lacks any known English ancestry.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

it makes sense that association would be more strong in the northeast (and possibly the old south). "old money" is A LOT older back there.

in "new" cities of the interior like chicago, the era of yankee dominance was fairly short-lived and pretty tightly compressed as there wasn't nearly as much "before" time before all those "damn immigrants" completely inundated the place. there was more of a "clean state" feeling out here. or maybe just less "deeply entrenched establishment". in a weird way, this might be one of the few ways that chicago is more aligned with the big cities of cali than it is with the old colonial bos-wash cities.

That makes sense. When the Irish came to Boston during the Famine, Yankees had been established for 200 years. In Chicago, the Irish were essentially a "charter group."

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by pj3000

And even with all of this total WASPy background, JFK and Jackie were NEVER accepted by "society" and outright hated by the "American aristocracy" specifically because of their non-WASP ancestry/religion.

Yeah, the kids might have grown up WASPy, but the political generation of Kennedys were absolutely not WASPs. They are probably the most vivid example of the power handover from WASP to non-WASP whites in NY and northeast politics. The Kennedys are also connected by blood and marriage to the very non-WASP Cuomo family.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Every one was white, and protestant, but not Anglo-Saxon, even if we take the broadest interpretation. Marten Van Buren was of 100% Dutch ancestry The Hudson Valley Dutch-speaking elite were completely assimilated into WASP high society by the late 19th century, but Van Buren grew up speaking Dutch at home! He was not a WASP.

If we want to get even more technical James Polk, James Buchannan, and Woodrow Wilson all lacked any English ancestry, being entirely Scottish and/or Scotch-Irish. The first two were born dirt-poor in log cabins, and the latter was from pretty a humble background as well. Though of course, there were far more Presidents than this who grew up poor.

Trump also lacks any known English ancestry.

The Scots and Scots-Irish are definitely WASPs. Lowland Scots are not Celts.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

When the Irish came to Boston during the Famine, Yankees had been established for 200 years. In Chicago, the Irish were essentially a "charter group."

right.

the yankee roots in chicago's soil were only several decades old when 8 bazillion european immigrants came storming into town, creating the "instant city" in the second half of the 19th century.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Docere

That makes sense. When the Irish came to Boston during the Famine, Yankees had been established for 200 years. In Chicago, the Irish were essentially a "charter group."

Irish Catholics were basically the first non-Protestant group which was accepted as being "white" in the U.S.

Prior to the Great Famine, the non-British Isles groups within the U.S. were pretty much all Protestant. Germans made up around 25% of Pennsylvania's population and formed their own culture within it. There were still large Dutch-speaking areas in New Jersey and New York. There were smatterings of other groups, like French Huguenots, Swiss, etc. But they were essentially all Protestant. There were probably more residual English Catholics in Maryland and the like than anything.

The Irish Catholic diaspora in the 1830s was the first real threat to the Protestant ascendency, which (along with the first Catholic German migration after the failed 1848 revolutions) triggered the first nativist spasm in the U.S. in the 1850s. But by around 1900, the Irish had flipped overall to being one of the strongest defenders of the status quo among Catholic groups in America, tending (for example) to have the most Anti-black animus among the urban "white ethnics" (whereas Italians and Greeks at the time were actually quite accepting overall).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Docere

The Scots and Scots-Irish are definitely WASPs. Lowland Scots are not Celts.

Anglo-Saxon is a historic construct anyway. Modern genetic studies have settled it. Even modern English people seem to be around 80% Celtic and only 20% Germanic by ancestry. How much of this is Saxon is hard to disentangle, since the Vikings invaded only a few centuries after, and came from largely the same spot in Europe.

Still though, if you're talking about 19th century America, people of Scottish or Scots-Irish ancestry were absolutely not part of the ruling class. There's a reason Andrew Carnegie grew up poor. It shifted over time of course, to the point that it became a social norm for people to switch from Methodism to Presbyterianism as they became wealthier.

[Docere]

After the Episcopalians, I think of the Presbyterians (and Congregationalists) as the WASP establishment churches.

Isn't the old ruling class in Pittsburgh largely Scottish/Scots-Irish Presbyterian?

[McBane]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Irish Catholics were basically the first non-Protestant group which was accepted as being "white" in the U.S.

It is interesting to see how the goal posts for being an "acceptable white" person has moved. Jews are now white! Cubans, too. I'm convinced that the discovery of aliens will be the catalyst for humans to overcome our own divisions and prejudices.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by McBane

It is interesting to see how the goal posts for being an "acceptable white" person has moved. Jews are now white! Cubans, too. I'm convinced that the discovery of aliens will be the catalyst for humans to overcome our own divisions and prejudices.

To me, it shows the opposite: it highlights on how strong anti-Black feeling was prevalent in the US society. Religious, social and cultural barriers were erased over the time. Racism against Black people wasn't.

[Bailey]

Originally Posted by Docere

After the Episcopalians, I think of the Presbyterians (and Congregationalists) as the WASP establishment churches.

Isn't the old ruling class in Pittsburgh largely Scottish/Scots-Irish Presbyterian?

I think something that is very hard for modern Americans to grasp is the hundreds of years of infighting in Europe between the different Christian denominations, even within nations. Just look at the history of England + Scotland + Ireland. Religious affiliation was stronger than country of origin. Your "tribe" was your denomination.

Each viewed the other as terrorists and when I say infighting I mean very — fighting...

So, when the colonists settled here, they were doing so to freely practice the extreme form of Protestantism- Puritanism. That was the ideal- The City on a Hill.

They were already fearful of other Protestant groups that were not "Puritan" enough, in their eyes (Church of England, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc.) and the definitely revolted against anything that was Catholic or Papist.

That attitude has followed us until the last few decades and there is a movement with, certain politicians, to return to that view.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by McBane

It is interesting to see how the goal posts for being an "acceptable white" person has moved. Jews are now white! Cubans, too. I'm convinced that the discovery of aliens will be the catalyst for humans to overcome our own divisions and prejudices.

Eh, Cubans were always white, more or less. There's some interesting stuff I've read about 19th century cigar factories in Forida which were run by Cubans, with Italian workforces. Americans thought the Cubans were "whiter" than the Italians in terms of racial hierarchy.

Honestly, through most of the time the U.S. has existed, Latinos were treated basically identically to "white ethnics." Yes, there were some nativist spasms (the zoot suit riots, Operation —, etc.) but for the most part Latinos attended schools integrated with Anglo students, always had the right to vote, were never subject to interracial marriage bars, etc. Which stands in contrast to blacks, Asians, and Native Americans, which all had explicit segregationist policies put in place.

Hell, even in the 1950s, Lucille Ball being married to Desi Arnaz was way, way less of an issue than a Jew being married to a gentile.

The idea of Latinos being "brown" really came about in the 1960s. Which is also when they became demographically large enough to be seen as a threat to white America.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The idea of Latinos being "brown" really came about in the 1960s. Which is also when they became demographically large enough to be seen as a threat to white America.

Also likely bc the nature of Latino immigration changed. More Puerto Ricans, Dominicans and Central/Southern Mexicans of indigenous background.

Cuban and Northern Mexican immigrants were pretty "white", for the most part.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Docere

The Scots and Scots-Irish are definitely WASPs. Lowland Scots are not Celts.

I don't think this is correct. Scots and Scots-Irish are Celtic Protestants with some degree of Germanic blood thanks to the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. Ulster people (Northern Ireland today) are descended from Lowland Scots, but I remember reading fairly recently that the Celtic tribes from Ireland invaded Lowland Scotland first.

And it's not like the English don't have Celtic lineage. A 2015 Oxford study found that the English are actually 45% "French" and 25% "German." The article states that the French heritage pre-dates the Norman Conquest, the Normans having been a mixture of Germanic (Franks and Vikings) and Latin. That must mean the French legacy can be attributed to the Gauls, a Celtic tribe.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/...man-French-DNA-Romans-left-no-trace.html

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The idea of Latinos being "brown" really came about in the 1960s. Which is also when they became demographically large enough to be seen as a threat to white America.

massively increasing numbers were certainly a big part of the equation,

but i think the immigrants themselves also started getting browner too.

more mestizos and less "desi arnaz-style white latinos".



EDIT: yeah, what crawford said.