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View Poll Results: Would you vote for a ETS Rapid Transit masterplan scheme?
Yes, I'd vote for more BRT/LRT 301 82.92%
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I dunno, maybe, yes, no, whatever. 28 7.71%
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  #11181  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2022, 2:44 AM
EdmTrekker EdmTrekker is offline
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Someone needs to be fired for that, if they haven't done so already.
The City PM and the City hired independent engineering consultant should have (likely did) inspect this work long ago when draw was made on this work. Maybe one or both should be fired for addressing this deficiency at this very late date. Just saying ... maybe this part of the work was accepted and paid.
     
     
  #11182  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2022, 2:48 AM
Hardhatdan Hardhatdan is offline
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The City PM and the City hired independent engineering consultant should have (likely did) inspect this work long ago when draw was made on this work. Maybe one or both should be fired for addressing this deficiency at this very late date. Just saying ... maybe this part of the work was accepted and paid.
It is a latent defect, it wasn't present during the initial construction, it stems from incorrect design TransEd already admitted such.
Payment for construction of the work isn't that important in this case because there's far greater penalties in LDs, missed operational payments and the fact they have to operate it for thirty years and are responsible for the safe operation.
Its not a simple construction contract.
     
     
  #11183  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2022, 2:49 AM
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It is a latent defect, it wasn't present during the initial construction.
Bingo.

Also, design only goes so far.

I recall working on a project with three different foundation strategies, with two of them executed and one of them less than ideal.
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  #11184  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2022, 2:51 AM
EdmTrekker EdmTrekker is offline
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It is a latent defect, it wasn't present during the initial construction.
Certainly neither party would admit to anything other than "latent". Unusual that the same latent deficiency repeated over and over don't you think?
     
     
  #11185  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2022, 2:53 AM
Hardhatdan Hardhatdan is offline
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Certainly neither party would admit to anything other than "latent". Unusual that the same latent deficiency repeated over and over don't you think?
No, that's pretty much the definition of most latent defect examples, one common problem to all.
It would unusual if only one pier was effected since the root cause is apparently stress from track expansion.
     
     
  #11186  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2022, 3:01 AM
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Bingo.

Also, design only goes so far.

I recall working on a project with three different foundation strategies, with two of them executed and one of them less than ideal.
I don't know what any of that means.

Design doesn't only go so far, design has to go all the way to something that is safe for the life span of the assets.

The new design and repair will have to cover that gap. Their E&O policy will be enjoying this.
     
     
  #11187  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2022, 3:40 AM
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I'm not excusing what has happened, but these didn't occur until actual load, compression, torsion and vibration were placed upon it.

That said, my bet is temp and additives during the pour.
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  #11188  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2022, 10:56 PM
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I'm not excusing what has happened, but these didn't occur until actual load, compression, torsion and vibration were placed upon it.

That said, my bet is temp and additives during the pour.
All these factors Are massively preventable in construction these days. It's actually a no brainer in the construction/Engineering and Inspection fields. You know this I'm sure. I don't know where they went wrong. But the damage shown is massive.

In fact, I have not seen any solutions to properly fix this. Even When talking to other professionals. Except to Brace/reinforce all overhead platforms and to do a complete tear down of these structures.

Hopefully, they find a better solution. Argh.
     
     
  #11189  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2022, 2:56 AM
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I'm not excusing what has happened, but these didn't occur until actual load, compression, torsion and vibration were placed upon it.

That said, my bet is temp and additives during the pour.
TransEd already said the actual loads from the track expansion exceeded their model.

I'm not sure what additives you're talking about, but mix designs don't have random components added to them during batching or placing.
     
     
  #11190  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2022, 3:03 AM
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Yes, they do.

https://www.powerblanket.com/blog/storing-concrete-admixtures-cold-weather/

Again, speculating, but curious as to when things were poured, at what temp and how was it protected.
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  #11191  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2022, 11:24 AM
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Yes, they do.

https://www.powerblanket.com/blog/storing-concrete-admixtures-cold-weather/

Again, speculating, but curious as to when things were poured, at what temp and how was it protected.
Those get included in the mix designs that go for approval, so no I don't think they are added adhoc.
     
     
  #11192  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2022, 1:17 PM
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Not ad hoc, but they can and have contributed to changes in curing which have contributed to issues down the road.

Again, maybe not the case here, but something to consider.
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  #11193  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2022, 2:05 PM
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Not ad hoc, but they can and have contributed to changes in curing which have contributed to issues down the road.

Again, maybe not the case here, but something to consider.
all those “changes in curing” along with changes in slump characteristics etc. in air entrained concrete are pretty well known and well documented.

when it comes to entrained air, subsequent issues are more likely to be a result of mishandling rather than misdesign or mismixing.

that concrete mishandling can be too much time in the truck or not enough time in the truck, poor form work design that doesn’t adequately allow for rebar design and tie placement not to impede concrete placement without segregating aggregate, poorly sized 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 heads, over vibration or not enough vibration... inadequate protection from extreme heat or cold fluctuations during curing can also have a negative impact on its own as well as exacerbating many of the other potential risk factors.

i would also imagine that there would have been enough test cylinders taken and analyzed/destroyed to have verified the concrete itself as being “up to snuff”.

if there is one positive, it might be from the number of failures and their consistency although that’s based on the assumption that all of the failures are the same as those seen here. that would at least assist in identifying the underlying cause and the required solution regardless of how extensive - and expensive - that solution might be.
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  #11194  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2022, 3:42 PM
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Join DIALOGers Georg Josi, Partner & Structural Engineer, Larissa Ulcar, Associate, Structural Engineer, and Josh Stock, Structural Technologist, for a guided tour of Edmonton’s stunning tawatinâ bridge on Wednesday, August 31, as a part of the IN SITU design series hosted by Media Architecture Design Edmonton (MADE).

https://dialogdesign.ca/news-events/dialog-team-leads-tour-of-edmontons-tawatina-bridge/
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  #11195  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 6:38 PM
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man, iano is an expert in everything.
     
     
  #11196  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 9:17 PM
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Those get included in the mix designs that go for approval, so no I don't think they are added adhoc.
One of the biggest tells for me:

A) lack of spalling or crumble
B) lack of blemishes and stains
C) lack of discolouring

It looks well-poured. It certainly looks like a stress fracture. I'm going to go with issues with loading more than anything chemical.

I know which additives they can throw in concretes, cements and grouts. Worked in that industry and have seen the stuff they add in. There doesn't look to be any funny business (or highly specialised design considerations for that matter.) It looks like a miscalculated stress to my eye.
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  #11197  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 9:55 PM
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man, iano is an expert in everything.
Nobody should be referred to as an 'expert', let alone me and while I know this was sarcasm, I am always curious to learn more about things and have had a wide variety of experiences thus far in my life.
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  #11198  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2022, 10:32 PM
kcantor kcantor is offline
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man, iano is an expert in everything.
now he’s even an expert in not being an expert!

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Nobody should be referred to as an 'expert', let alone me and while I know this was sarcasm, I am always curious to learn more about things and have had a wide variety of experiences thus far in my life.
isn’t curiosity expressed in questions rather than as opinions of facts to be defended at all costs?
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  #11199  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2022, 12:32 AM
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As I see the Above comments....Let me repeat after 25 years of dealing with this...EVERY DAY In one capacity or another....which I and my Company are 100% responsible for all work that we do. Internet warriors some how know the score.

"All these factors Are massively preventable in construction these days. It's actually a no brainer in the construction/Engineering and Inspection fields. You know this I'm sure. I don't know where they went wrong. But the damage shown is massive"

In fact, I have not seen any solutions to properly fix this. Even When talking to other professionals. Except to Brace/reinforce all overhead platforms and to do a complete tear down of these structures.
     
     
  #11200  
Old Posted Aug 28, 2022, 3:39 AM
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now he’s even an expert in not being an expert!



isn’t curiosity expressed in questions rather than as opinions of facts to be defended at all costs?
With all due respect Ken, 'at all costs' is an interesting projection; I most certainly do not profess to know all, but due enjoy commenting on all.
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