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  #1521  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
Here's another serious example of the breakdown of order in society.

[flyer]

[CTV News]
It's a bluff. I can almost bet you it's a bluff to spook people into relocating and I'll bet you money on it.
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  #1522  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 11:09 PM
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It's a bluff. I can almost bet you it's a bluff to spook people into relocating and I'll bet you money on it.
I hope you're right - but it has still agitated the neighbourhood, which has no need for additional anxiety or the potential to over react to a perceived threat. It wasn't a threat 'on the internet' - somebody physically drove through the area. And it was distributed just after someone had already been set on fire in the area, and four homeless had been shot, two of them dying, in Langley, so there's already a lot of justifiable fear.
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  #1523  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 11:56 PM
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I hope you're right - but it has still agitated the neighbourhood, which has no need for additional anxiety or the potential to over react to a perceived threat. It wasn't a threat 'on the internet' - somebody physically drove through the area. And it was distributed just after someone had already been set on fire in the area, and four homeless had been shot, two of them dying, in Langley, so there's already a lot of justifiable fear.
IF you or a group of people were about to take it to the streets to clean things up, would you seriously make a public note of it for the police and the media to see your intentions? That's setting yourself up for failure. Instead however it plants the idea that something might happen and those with common sense will relocate. This doubles down if say, there's an unrelated fire or assault. We will know on the 6pm news, but they will have to find out through gossip.
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  #1524  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 12:05 AM
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Yes Vin, I think that letter is the most sickening thing we've seen yet.

And no, saying that doesn't mean we are excusing violent behaviour by individuals in the past.
Never even seen you voice out on all the past disorderliness and violence by DTES individuals voluntarily, and now suddenly you are championing the "threatening poster" bandwagon. Somehow your last sentence isn't convincing at all.

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I hope you're right - but it has still agitated the neighbourhood, which has no need for additional anxiety or the potential to over react to a perceived threat. It wasn't a threat 'on the internet' - somebody physically drove through the area. And it was distributed just after someone had already been set on fire in the area, and four homeless had been shot, two of them dying, in Langley, so there's already a lot of justifiable fear.
Boohoohoo. Local residents and businesses have been threatened by these individuals, their lawlessness and even criminal behaviours for decades. And now a single poster is now agitating these people, whom many are mere transients from other places? What entitlement!
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  #1525  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 12:07 AM
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It looks like this neighbourhood is imploding.....

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"Where the f*ck are you?": Downtown Eastside residents and advocates condemn leaders
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/downtown-eastside-third-world-residents
Looks like Canada will start growing more money trees to appease these individuals.
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  #1526  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 12:08 AM
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IF you or a group of people were about to take it to the streets to clean things up, would you seriously make a public note of it for the police and the media to see your intentions? That's setting yourself up for failure. Instead however it plants the idea that something might happen and those with common sense will relocate. This doubles down if say, there's an unrelated fire or assault. We will know on the 6pm news, but they will have to find out through gossip.
If this starts a chain of events that leads to violence somewhere else, that's on the instigator/s head/s. Same reason it's illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre.
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  #1527  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 12:19 AM
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These 5 myths about B.C.'s toxic drug crisis are hurting efforts to stop the deaths, say experts (CBC)

Advocates argue part of the problem is that many people with the power to make a difference are relying on outdated or incorrect ideas.

"People don't want to actually confront some serious realities here, and so these comforting lies are embraced in many ways. It's horrible because it prevents all of us from actually addressing this in a real way," said Karen Ward, a drug policy consultant with the City of Vancouver.

To get a better handle on some of the misconceptions, CBC spoke to experts who are experiencing the crisis from three different viewpoints: Leslie McBain, co-founder of Moms Stop the Harm, chief coroner Lisa LaPointe, and Ward.

Here are five of the most common myths they've encountered.

It's an 'opioid' or 'overdose' crisis

These shorthands for the emergency have only become less accurate as the years wear on. 

"People are actually trying to find opioids," Ward said. "The problem is that they're getting basically unknown substances."

If people don't know what they're taking, the word "overdose" — which implies someone has simply taken too much — hardly captures what's happening.

LaPointe adds that unlike in other parts of North America, B.C.'s crisis has never been about over-prescription of painkillers like oxycodone, and attempts to address the problem by limiting doctors' ability to prescribe opioids have been misguided at best.

The latest statistics from the coroner show a mishmash of drugs linked to deaths in B.C., with fentanyl and analogues like carfentanil detected in 91 per cent of fatal doses in December, and stimulants like methamphetamine and cocaine in 73 per cent

Perhaps most alarmingly, benzodiazepines were found in half of the samples, up from just 15 per cent in July 2020.

There could be some serious consequences as a result. For one thing, benzodiazepines are highly addictive, LaPointe notes.

"Withdrawing from opioids is difficult but it's nothing compared to withdrawing from benzodiazepines," she said.

There's also the fact that naloxone, one of the key planks in B.C.'s harm reduction strategy, will not reverse overdose from non-opioid drugs like benzodiazepines.

"Naloxone doesn't touch benzodiazepines," McBain explained.

B.C. has a safe supply of drugs

As it's been nearly two years since B.C. announced plans to provide a safe supply of drugs during the COVID-19 pandemic through access to prescription alternatives, shouldn't safe supply be widely available by now?

"I dearly wish that was true," LaPointe said.

She says she checks in regularly with health authorities to see how many people are able to access safe supply.

"The answer is always hardly anybody."

There are just a handful federally funded safe supply programs in B.C., all located in Vancouver and Victoria.

Leslie McBain, co-founder of Moms Stop the Harm, says B.C.'s limited safe supply programs aren't providing the right drugs.

"How do you actually access them? Nobody really knows," Ward said. "If you have the social power to have your own doctor … you might be able to do something."

McBain also takes issue with the drugs offered through the programs she's seen.

"If you're a person who, let's just say, is addicted to fentanyl, the government isn't willing to give you fentanyl. They say, 'Well, we're just going to give you some hydromorphone,'" she said.

"That doesn't work for people."

Only 'addicts' are dying

According to LaPointe, the B.C. Coroners Service convened a death review panel in December to discuss the drug poisoning crisis, and the data they reviewed show that people with severe drug dependencies do not represent the majority of deaths.

"You can be a first-time user, you can be a weekend user, you can be every few days, you can be a daily user," she said. "The supply is the unknown."

Ward says the increasingly toxic drug supply is making her feel more and more worried about the dangers of what she describes as "the normals" — people who might dabble in drugs for fun at a party, for example.

"If you're a regular user of an opiate, you've actually got the tolerance," she said. "But … the vast majority of people who use drugs just do it a once in a while."

People die from injected drugs

The image of someone dying with a needle stuck in their arm just doesn't match up with B.C.'s reality. According to the latest report from the coroner, only 19 per cent of toxic drug deaths in 2020 could be traced to consumption through injection.

By far the most common path to a drug-related death in 2020 was through smoking, at 56 per cent.

"There is another myth that smoking is safer, but it is not," LaPointe said.

B.C.'s chief coroner Lisa Lapointe says she's frustrated by the myth that people are mainly dying from illicit drugs in the Downtown Eastside. 

This is significant in part because of the role that supervised consumption sites and overdose prevention sites play in saving lives. According to the coroner, no one died of illicit drug poisoning at these sites in 2021, but they are still largely geared toward injection drug users.

"If we want to keep people safe, then consumption sites only for intravenous use or needle users are not going to be effective," LaPointe said.

She acknowledged concerns about protecting staff from drug fumes, but said overdose prevention sites are now beginning to accommodate more smokers.

It's a Downtown Eastside problem

LaPointe describes this as one of the most frustrating myths she encounters.

"The drugs are toxic, so it doesn't matter where you live in the province or your socioeconomic status or your job. If you take a drug that is toxic, you will die," she said.

Even so, services for drug users in B.C. are largely concentrated in the downtown Vancouver core and other urban areas.

It's true that the largest number of toxic drug deaths happen in Vancouver, but every corner of the province is seeing people die from drug poisoning: the Thompson Cariboo, Northwest, Northern Interior and Fraser East regions saw some of the highest death rates in 2021.

"It is in every community in B.C.," McBain said.

"It is in rural communities, it's in small towns, it's in bigger towns, it's urban, and it just so happens that the people in the Downtown Eastside are more visible."
If the government and society know that there isn't enough safe supply, the best way to save addicts would be for authorities to round them up and force them to go cold turkey. Not doing it means that the government is promoting and enhancing suicide through addiciton. Also safe to say that a majority of those who start out doing drugs, end up being heavily addicted, and somehow survive would end up on the streets, with many of them in the DTES or elsewhere on city/town centre sidewalks. Hence whatever is said in the article becomes moot.
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  #1528  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 12:22 AM
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And now a single poster is now agitating these people, whom many are mere transients from other places? What entitlement!
That makes it OK to threaten them? They have the right to be in Canada, in Vancouver, in the Downtown Eastside, without having their lives threatened. As do you. There are no second class citizens, even if you have a hierarchy in your mind of who are acceptable targets.
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  #1529  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 12:27 AM
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If the government and society know that there isn't enough safe supply, the best way to save addicts would be for authorities to round them up and force them to go cold turkey. Not doing it means that the government is promoting and enhancing suicide through addiciton. Also safe to say that a majority of those who start out doing drugs, end up being heavily addicted, and somehow survive would end up on the streets, with many of them in the DTES or elsewhere on city/town centre sidewalks. Hence whatever is said in the article becomes moot.
You still don't get it. You still have no idea about who is using drugs, who is dying, who gets addicted, who dies without being addicted at all. The entire article contradicted your simplistic beliefs and went 'whoosh' straight over your head.
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  #1530  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 12:43 AM
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Regarding Drug Use and Deaths, this is a good reference document:

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/birth-...ers-service/statistical/illicit-drug.pdf
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  #1531  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 12:46 AM
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You still don't get it. You still have no idea about who is using drugs, who is dying, who gets addicted, who dies without being addicted at all. The entire article contradicted your simplistic beliefs and went 'whoosh' straight over your head.
You talk as if you know everything although we all know you actually don't (Fake charts or stats do not count). Let's look at the numbers: Vancouver proper has the highest number of deaths among all the municipalities, and it has almost twice the number compared to the deaths in Surrey, despite the fact that these two municipalities have similar populations. Does that say there are many more people dying from drug use in Vancouver homes outside the DTES. No, and it is no coincidence that the municipality with the highest drug deaths has the DTES located within it. Therefore logic tells us that the DTES outshines other places when it comes to overdoses and deaths. Prove me wrong otherwise: do you have specific numbers?

You are the simplistic one here.
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  #1532  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 1:12 AM
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You talk as if you know everything although we all know you actually don't (Fake charts or stats do not count). Let's look at the numbers: Vancouver proper has the highest number of deaths among all the municipalities, and it has almost twice the number compared to the deaths in Surrey, despite the fact that these two municipalities have similar populations. Coincidence that the DTES is in Vancouver? Logic tells us that the DTES outshines other places when it comes to overdoses and deaths. Prove me wrong otherwise: do you have specific numbers?

You are the simplistic one here.
Look at the data you posted. Northern Health had a higher Illicit Drug Toxicity Death Rate in 2020, 2021, and so far in 2022. This year both the Interior and Island Health have death rates that are almost as high as Coastal Health (that includes Vancouver and the DTES). If most people, or even a lot of people, were dying in the DTES, it would have a much higher death rate than those other parts of BC.

To quote the CBC piece: "It's true that the largest number of toxic drug deaths happen in Vancouver, but every corner of the province is seeing people die from drug poisoning: the Thompson Cariboo, Northwest, Northern Interior and Fraser East regions saw some of the highest death rates in 2021." More people died in small communities - so small they get labelled as 'other townships' - in 2019, 2020, 2021 and so far this year than in Vancouver.

To quote the Chief Coroner: "There are people who are really disadvantaged and vulnerable on the Downtown Eastside who die, but there are people in suburban neighbourhoods who die just as often. There are people in rural communities, small communities, people from all walks of life — we see those people as coroners. Of course, because of the stigma, families don’t want to share that their loved one died as a result of drug use. What we really need people to understand is this can happen to anybody and we’re all vulnerable."

No deaths have been reported at supervised consumption or drug overdose prevention sites.

Remind me, your round up of 'addicts' - does it include all the sports writers, actors, and 12-year-olds?
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  #1533  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 1:41 AM
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When all one's sources are VanCity Buzz articles and Youtube videos, maybe it's not a good idea to call other people's stats fake.
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  #1534  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 2:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Never even seen you voice out on all the past disorderliness and violence by DTES individuals voluntarily, and now suddenly you are championing the "threatening poster" bandwagon. Somehow your last sentence isn't convincing at all.



Boohoohoo. Local residents and businesses have been threatened by these individuals, their lawlessness and even criminal behaviours for decades. And now a single poster is now agitating these people, whom many are mere transients from other places? What entitlement!
That isn't true. I have never advocated for people who commit violence to get off scot-free. In fact I have said tougher sentencing for those who deserve it is worthwhile - but the city has no control over sentencing. What I have said is that a lot of people in the Downtown Eastside deserve empathy regardless of whether they are housed or unhoused, employed or looking for work, addicted or clean. This includes local business owners and housed residents, but I didn't feel the need to spend all my words on that group of people because there is no shortage of empathy for them on this site.

Don't throw around "these individuals" because that poster was referring to the homeless in general. All homeless are not drug addicts. All homeless are not violent. All homeless do not have a mental illness. Yet this poster and you are treating all homeless the same, regardless of their actual behaviour. It's not just about "agitating" the homeless, it's about them having a real fear for their life. If someone had shot a bunch of mothers pushing strollers in Langley a few weeks ago I would be terrified for my wife and she would likely shelter in place for a few days. But the vulnerable on the street have no where to go, no where to shelter, and have fewer and fewer advocates.
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  #1535  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 4:51 AM
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As the topic of drug users has been brought up here again, those who don't know about him might find Guy Felicella of interest. He's a recovered Vancouver addict who is now a peer clinical advisor. He spoke at the press conference today that confirmed the statistics on the Public Health Emergency, and some of it was on CTV.

Video Link
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  #1536  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 4:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
When all one's sources are VanCity Buzz articles and Youtube videos, maybe it's not a good idea to call other people's stats fake.
When one is so frequently shown to be wrong, they tend to double-down because the psychological shame of their ignorance becomes too overwhelming to face.
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  #1537  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 5:55 PM
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When one is so frequently shown to be wrong, they tend to double-down because the psychological shame of their ignorance becomes too overwhelming to face.
I'm sure there are PhDs out there that could write a thesis on Vin.
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  #1538  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 6:21 PM
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Wow, if this happens to an Orpheum usher imagine how safe patrons must feel leaving the theatre:

Vancouver theatre community comes to usher’s aid after violent attack
Nikitha Martins
Aug 17 2022

Vancouver’s theatre community is coming together to raise funds for an usher who was allegedly assaulted outside The Orpheum theatre.

According to a fundraiser, Serji was randomly attacked by a stranger when she was leaving the theatre on Smithe Street, where she works.

While still in her uniform, she was “violently” thrown to the ground. This resulted in two broken wrists and arms, a number of cuts and bruises and emotional trauma.

Sandra McRae, who created the GoFundMe, is a friend and coworker of Serji. She said Serji has worked for many years at Vancouver Civic Theatres like the Orpheum, Queen Elizabeth Theatre and Playhouse in Vancouver....


https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/orpheum-usher-attack-donations
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  #1539  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 11:44 PM
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Serji definitely isn't me or you, so as per Vancouver denier logic, we are still very safe!

Quote from above article:
Quote:
While still in her uniform, she was “violently” thrown to the ground. This resulted in two broken wrists and arms, a number of cuts and bruises and emotional trauma.
Sounds like one is trying to recant on something here....
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Originally Posted by dreambrother808 View Post
When one is so frequently shown to be wrong, they tend to double-down because the psychological shame of their ignorance becomes too overwhelming to face.

Last edited by Vin; Aug 18, 2022 at 12:05 AM.
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  #1540  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
As the topic of drug users has been brought up here again, those who don't know about him might find Guy Felicella of interest. He's a recovered Vancouver addict who is now a peer clinical advisor. He spoke at the press conference today that confirmed the statistics on the Public Health Emergency, and some of it was on CTV.

Video Link
Scary to see more and more teens using it, meaning more will end up on the sidewalks, alleyways and SROs of the DTES. This is a cultural problem and stems from individuals and families, and it goes very deep into our collective society. What is the government doing to combat all these?

Great that someone like Guy Felicella can turn over a new leaf and becomes one of society's contributing citizens again. However, he should also know that not all individuals are alike, and not everyone has the will power like him to accept the change willingly. Many need to be coaxed or even forced to do so. I definitely don't agree with him that drug use isn't akin to drug addiction. It is like saying trying different kinds of poisons will not necessarily kill you. Also definitely don't agree with him for the Province to have a safe supply of drugs anywhere where people want it. That's simply irresponsible, and will cause a lot more harm like enabling more to become addicted. Like I said before, not everyone has the will to turn around like he did.
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