Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[Migrant_Coconut]

Statistically, the GVRD multiplied by 0.0009% gives me 2,184. Would it be safe to assume the other 89 homeless are scattered around the suburbs, or that some blogger in Toronto confused our city with our metro?

If the latter, 3,634 homeless gives me 15 homeless per 10,000 people. Still near the bottom of the graph, but not as low as Montreal.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Statistically, the GVRD multiplied by 0.0009% gives me 2,184. Would it be safe to assume the other 89 homeless are scattered around the suburbs, or that some blogger in Toronto confused our city with our metro?

If the latter, 3,634 homeless gives me 15 homeless per 10,000 people. Still near the bottom of the graph, but not as low as Montreal.

I think they've got the number wrong as well. I think it's 10 sheltered, and 4 unsheltered, making a total of 14. (I'm referencing the 2020 data).

But Montreal has apparently seen homelessness double to 4,000 over the pandemic, and with a population of 1.7 million that would mean they have a total of 23 per 10,000 homeless, so higher than Vancouver. As they haven't published any actual count data since 2018 it's hard to be certain of an accurate number in Montreal.

Either way, Vancouver and Montreal have much less of a problem overall than almost all the other cities on that graphic, and certainly less than other west coast cities.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

Never said it isn't a problem anywhere else, but still insist we are certainly ranked one of the worst out there: up there with the worst in the US. Your constant denial is, well, expected.

Where do you have evidence for this ranking?

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Skook

In the last week, I have been to see American comedians Louis CK and John Mulaney. Both are from New York and both immediately commented on the addiction problem on our streets.

We likely do have less violence here because Canada, but the open drug use and rampant mental illness here is noticeable instantly, even to famous visitors from the biggest cities staying in our best hotels.

Vancouver has also been on the national news the last week because of the efforts to clear Hastings. It's possible that the comedians saw those stories which prompted the jokes.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Vancouver has also been on the national news the last week because of the efforts to clear Hastings. It's possible that the comedians saw those stories which prompted the jokes.

Just speculation, but based on the Portland map posted earlier Americans might expect homeless camps to be dispersed throughout the city. Vancouver, on the other hand, has mostly kept the homeless population concentrated in the DTES (which happens to be beside the hotels and stadiums big comedians would be around). If you saw the DTES and thought that there's dozens more of that spread out across the Metro Vancouver area, you'd understandably think we have a huge societal issue.

Based on this article and map, homeless encampments are pretty spread out across Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx. Meanwhile, any new encampment outside the DTES tends to make major headlines (Strathcona and CRAB parks in particular).



https://nycitylens.com/new-yorks-encampments-arent-going-anywhere/

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Just speculation, but based on the Portland map posted earlier Americans might expect homeless camps to be dispersed throughout the city. Vancouver, on the other hand, has mostly kept the homeless population concentrated in the DTES (which happens to be beside the hotels and stadiums big comedians would be around). If you saw the DTES and thought that there's dozens more of that spread out across the Metro Vancouver area, you'd understandably think we have a huge societal issue.

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised when I travelled to Portland a few weeks back. I had been told to expect a homeless situation far worse than Vancouver's, but the downtown had hardly any homeless and only a couple tents in some surface parking lots. But my perception of Portland's problems was certainly framed by my experience with the concentration of Vancouver's homeless in one or two areas (DTES and CRAB park). The clearing of the DTES will probably make our situation more closely resemble the dispersed nature of U.S. cities.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Skook

We likely do have less violence here because Canada, but the open drug use and rampant mental illness here is noticeable instantly, even to famous visitors from the biggest cities staying in our best hotels.

Who cares if other cities score better or worse according to some measures, we have a world class problem here, and most of our proposed solutions are more of the same shit that has failed consistently for years and years.

IMO there would be 2 things I would think of:

1) COVID spurred many jursidictions to have people avoid jail time to avoid further infections. BC even released some ppl early from their sentences early in the pandemic (rightly so). IMO Some of the disorder likely stems from that and it would take time to go back to pre-pandemic levels of incarceration.

2) Housing, bc jail is a lot more expensive than housing. This is the simplest/easiest/most difficult thing to do. Interestingly, on my feed,Medicine Hat AB has dramatically reduced ("eliminated") functional homelessness due to a housing first policy that made that a priority over treatment, detox, etc.

Functional Zero means that three or fewer individuals were experiencing chronic homelessness for three consecutive months. The CAEH confirms that Medicine Hat is the first community in Canada to get there.

...

Rogers said that Medicine Hat needed to undergo a “complete paradigm shift in terms of meeting people where they’re at. We’re a non-compliance program. We don’t have pre-conditions of housing, people don’t need to stop doing things to be worthy of a home.”

A great deal of work has gone into combating stigma and discrimination – and changing or eliminating policies that perpetuate stigma and discrimination. “How we deal with an opioid crisis is very different than how we deal with those experiencing homelessness. But I think it’s really easy for people to roll it into one,” Rogers added.

She said that they don’t care about anything else an individual is going through before they have housing. Whatever that person’s situation, social supports will be more effective once they are housed.

https://www.moosejawtoday.com/local-news...ada-functional-zero-homelessness-5030399

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

IMO there would be 2 things I would think of:

1) COVID spurred many jursidictions to have people avoid jail time to avoid further infections. BC even released some ppl early from their sentences early in the pandemic (rightly so). IMO Some of the disorder likely stems from that and it would take time to go back to pre-pandemic levels of incarceration.

Receipts:



https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210708/dq210708a-eng.htm

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Where do you have evidence for this ranking?

Just go to the more developed world outside North America and walk their streets, including the worst neighbourhoods, then come back to our downtown's DTES and Granville Street, etc. Then watch DTES Youtube videos, without able to find anything even remotely close anywhere in the world. Yes, with that, even 3-year-olds can tell about our situation here. Stop kidding yourself OK? We are certainly one of the worst when it comes to concentrated areas of dysfunctional neighbourhoods, if not the worst of the lot.

Authorities here won't be suicidal enough to show any "evidence" that we are the worst, and you can be rest assured of that.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Where do you have evidence for this ranking?

There you go, are these all enough "evidence" for you?

Originally Posted by Skook

So if Vancouver has 660,000 people and only 9 per 10000 homeless, then we only have 9 times 66 = 594 homeless. I doubt this is accurate.

In the last week, I have been to see American comedians Louis CK and John Mulaney. Both are from New York and both immediately commented on the addiction problem on our streets.

We likely do have less violence here because Canada, but the open drug use and rampant mental illness here is noticeable instantly, even to famous visitors from the biggest cities staying in our best hotels.

Who cares if other cities score better or worse according to some measures, we have a world class problem here, and most of our proposed solutions are more of the same shit that has failed consistently for years and years.

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Vancouver has also been on the national news the last week because of the efforts to clear Hastings. It's possible that the comedians saw those stories which prompted the jokes.

Originally Posted by chowhou

Just speculation, but based on the Portland map posted earlier Americans might expect homeless camps to be dispersed throughout the city. Vancouver, on the other hand, has mostly kept the homeless population concentrated in the DTES (which happens to be beside the hotels and stadiums big comedians would be around). If you saw the DTES and thought that there's dozens more of that spread out across the Metro Vancouver area, you'd understandably think we have a huge societal issue.

Based on this article and map, homeless encampments are pretty spread out across Manhattan, Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx. Meanwhile, any new encampment outside the DTES tends to make major headlines (Strathcona and CRAB parks in particular).

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised when I travelled to Portland a few weeks back. I had been told to expect a homeless situation far worse than Vancouver's, but the downtown had hardly any homeless and only a couple tents in some surface parking lots. But my perception of Portland's problems was certainly framed by my experience with the concentration of Vancouver's homeless in one or two areas (DTES and CRAB park). The clearing of the DTES will probably make our situation more closely resemble the dispersed nature of U.S. cities.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

It's entirely relevant. You said "up there with the worst in the US". You didn't mention Canada.

But, as you clearly don't know how to find data, here's an easy graphic with a few cities shown. [blogTO]

Using misleading figures to sway the crowd I see. Your anonymity does not preclude you from being taken to court by the real concerned residents for showing fake data that you conveniently pulled from Google, eh?

Only 540 sheltered and unsheltered homeless folks here? LOL.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Vin

There you go, are these all enough "evidence" for you?

These are anecdotes, Vin. Maybe look in a dictionary to discover the difference between anecdotes and evidence.

I’m sure you will still conflate the two afterwards, though…

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Vin

Just go to the more developed world outside North America and walk their streets, including the worst neighbourhoods, then come back to our downtown's DTES and Granville Street, etc. Then watch DTES Youtube videos, without able to find anything even remotely close anywhere in the world. Yes, with that, even 3-year-olds can tell about our situation here. Stop kidding yourself OK? We are certainly one of the worst when it comes to concentrated areas of dysfunctional neighbourhoods, if not the worst of the lot.

Authorities here won't be suicidal enough to show any "evidence" that we are the worst, and you can be rest assured of that.

You said we were ranked with the worst American cities and now presented with evidence contradicting your claims you change your story.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Again with the random internet hearsay (and by twisting the words of people who DON'T think we're the worst, no less!)... just join a Make Canada Great Again rally and be done with it. The real number can be found with a 30-second Google search and a calculator: 15 homeless per 10,000, below Calgary and Chicago and well below Seattle, NY and LA. The chart is still accurate.

It's ironic that somebody who wants us to travel around the world to other cities clearly doesn't do so very often, or even reads their news. Unlike Tokyo, the world's "safest" city, Vancouver's never had a national leader shot dead in the streets.

[Vin]

It is safe to say that Vancouver has become the laughing stock of the world. Those crybabies who claimed being assaulted by the police should not have been there in the first place. They were confrontational, violent, and were in the way of City workers doing their jobs. Hence I'm not surprised quite a few of them were roughly handled by the VPD. My advice:" Stay the heck out when the police and city workers are doing what this City is paying them to do!"

"It's abominable": Witness claims police were assaulting people in Downtown Eastside (VIDEO)
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/police-assaulted-downtown-eastside

We've been spoiling these people way too long, especially the well-clothed and well-fed "activists" (pretty much the sons and daughters of Karens and Dougs, or NIMBYs of this City), that a few of them deserve some good whacking if they misbehave so badly. They are essentially the enablers that allow the dysfunctionality of this city and DTES neighbourhood to go on for far too long.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

You said we were ranked with the worst American cities and now presented with evidence contradicting your claims you change your story.

If you want to accept some "Tom, Dick and Harry" graph and use that as "evidence", be my guest. Let's see how far you can go with that.

Seeing the opportunist as you or Changing_City are, I'm not surprised.

Originally Posted by Changing City

Street homeless - the ones you can see - were counted at 547 in 2020, the most recent published point-in-time survey. It was 67 less than were counted in 2019. There were 1,548 in emergency shelters, detox centres, safe houses, and hospitals, with no fixed address.

And on the graph clearly stated "Sheltered" and "Unsheltered" individuals inclusive. Clearly our shelters have invisible walls.

Using your numbers, the percentage should be closer to (2095/660000)=32% homelessness in total, far exceeding the 9% shown on the charts.
So stop with your excuses: you should be renouncing that misleading chart that you are brazenly showing.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

If you want to accept some "Tom, Dick and Harry" graph and use that as "evidence", be my guest. Let's see how far you can go with that.

Seeing the opportunist as you or Changing_City are, I'm not surprised.

Please post your accurate data showing levels of homelessness per 10,000 population across whatever list of cities you like, but including Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle.

Or you can acknowledge that Vancouver has a much lower level of homelessness than many North American cities, especially those on the West Coast (where the weather is milder).

And the street homeless are the ones you can see because they're on the street, or in parks, living in tents. The sheltered homeless are in emergency shelters, detox centres, safe houses, and hospitals, but have no fixed address. The graphic shows both sheltered and unsheltered.

If you don't like the Toronto source (which we think may have slightly miscalculated Vancouver) here's one from Forbes. You do the math. We had 3,634 homeless in a population of 2.6 million. (1,095 were unsheltered).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Clearly somebody hasn't been to LA or Seattle recently and seen their much greater share of the filth. I'll make it simple: 3,634 homeless in Metro Vancouver, divided by 2,642,825 total residents. That's 14 per 10,000.

Originally Posted by Vin

It is safe to say that Vancouver has become the laughing stock of the world. Those crybabies who claimed being assaulted by the police should not have been there in the first place. They were confrontational, violent, and were in the way of City workers doing their jobs. Hence I'm not surprised quite a few of them were roughly handled by the VPD. My advice:" Stay the heck out when the police and city workers are doing what this City is paying them to do!"

We've been spoiling these people way too long, especially the well-clothed and well-fed "activists" (pretty much the sons and daughters of Karens and Dougs, or NIMBYs of this City), that a few of them deserve some good whacking if they misbehave so badly. They are essentially the enablers that allow the dysfunctionality of this city and DTES neighbourhood to go on for far too long.

Some days are bad. Even in Australia.

Police move in on homeless people and supporters at Melbourne camp

Police have moved in to remove homeless people and their supporters from a makeshift camp established outside of Flinders Street station in Melbourne’s city.

The group chanted “homelessness is not a crime” and “poverty is not illegal” and held up placards as police arrived to assist with attempts to relocate them to social housing. Staff from the Salvation Army were also on standby.

While about half a dozen homeless people were outside of the station on Tuesday, by Wednesday morning more had joined the camp to protest and by the afternoon, a large crowd of protesters had gathered. The majority were not homeless people but advocates or passers-by who joined in.

link

[chowhou]

Once you reach the "the stats are fake, the government is lying to you" phase, you might need a reality check.

Here's my layman calculation, not sure exactly how correct it is but here goes:

In 2020 there were 3,634 counted homeless in Metro Vancouver with 65% guaranteed sheltered and 28%-35% unsheltered.
Metro Vancouver data

Out of a population of 2,642,825 (2021 census) that gives a rate of

(3634 / 2642825) * 10000 = 13.7 homeless individuals per 10,000 with 9 per 10,000 sheltered and 4-5 unsheltered.

In 2020 there were 54,291 counted homeless in LA County (not perfect for the metro area but analogous to Metro Vancouver Regional District) with 71% guaranteed sheltered and 29% unsheltered
LA County Data

Out of a population of 9,861,224 (2022 estimate) that gives a rate of

(54291 / 9861224) * 10000 = 55 homeless individuals per 10,000 with 39 per 10,000 sheltered and 16 per 10,000 sheltered.

Vancouver has definitely gone for the "concentrate the problem for more effective handling" approach rather than the "dilute the problem so it's not as noticeable" which optically looks far worse. Not sure if it's more effective or not, sure you cluster people around the services they may need but are the downsides worth it?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

It is safe to say that Vancouver has become the laughing stock of the world.

Is the world also guffawing at Los Angeles? Giggling at Phoenix? Splitting their sides at Seattle? (They've had exactly the same problems there clearing the sidewalks, with the fire department requiring the tents cleared. There are also encampments in parks too).