Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

I’d say those aren’t really ballot box issues anymore, we’re just too cynical now. We’re used to crappy healthcare and crappy infrastructure, and have come to accept it as something no party can ever fix, whether or not they claim that they could if elected.

The fraction of those points that’s provincial in scope was covered by my ballot box issue number four, “not going extinct in the longer term”. It was a good reason to turf the Couillard Liberals, especially since the alternative was ALSO “good managers” (i.e. covering points one to three).

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by niwell

I don't want to speak for Quebeckers, but friends and acquaintances in Montreal are increasingly talking about unaffordability in the real estate market, particularly for rentals. Obviously not Toronto/Vancouver levels, but seeing a lot of posts about renovictions and the proliferation of airbnbs in "hip" parts of Mtl that were traditionally affordable.

This is definitely a problem in Le Plateau.

I hate airbnb, have never taken part in it during my travels, never will.

Just another indictment of our post 2008 'free money' behaviour.

[Al Ski]

I'll give you my perspective which is not at all representative of any others.

I moved here (MTL) in 2010 knowing virtually no French whatsoever. Signed up for free courses and moved into a totally francophone neighbourhood with the intention of learning French. I was met with nothing but goodwill and people trying to help me (and practicing their English - the bane of Anglo French-learners in MTL!)

In my neighbourhood I'm as likely to hear Spanish, Arabic, Italian or English as I am French - and then the French is likely to be African or Francais tinged - so another language altogether lol.

But I work mostly in French.

The buy-in here is that you speak French, and whatever you want -which goes beyond all odds in Monoculture Anglo North America, and it's really cool once you buy in!

Nobody talks politics, nobody cares (other than the odd idiot that you will meet anywhere)

I f*cking love it and f*cking love that I can now easily flip back and forth between 2 languages (and increasingly a 3rd because my gf is Colombian)

I remember living in Ontario where everybody 'celebrated' cultures but there was no actual engagement ie: actually learning a language.

Weak sauce, hollow grounds, no commitment.

And what is Ontario Culture anyways? is there such a thing?

"See that place that's pretending to be New York? That's actually Toronto!"

Ontario Canadian culture.. I'll pass..

[Acajack]

A Saguenay pharmacist denies a woman the morning-after pill, and cites religious beliefs.

He told her to go to another pharmacy, or to wait a while for another pharmacist to come on duty who might give it to her. The woman thinks this is unsatisfactory given that in the case of this pill, time is often of the essence.

The professional "order" that regulates pharmacists says that he was within his Charter rights. Similar to how doctors can refuse to perform abortions.



https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1903108/pilule-lendemain-pharmacien-charte-droits

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Question: what are the big issues that keep Québécois awake at night? We all know the big English Canada problems: our cities are unaffordable; we have a growing inter generational wealth gap that can’t end well; our industries are sclerotic and seem more interested in paying dividends than investing in productivity that would make Canada competitive. I could go on. I haven’t begun to address other social issues, like First Nations, drug epidemics or a growing underclass. We discuss these ad nauseam on this board.

But what are uniquely Quebec problems that are largely of the province’s own making? So, not problems that Quebec can deflect on the ROC.

It’s not the langage issue, that’s for sure. La CAQ is making a big fuss about that in a mostly demagogic move, but Quebecers are mostly worried about the failure of our health system, inflation, gun violence (Montreal) and shortage of employees.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

In my neighbourhood I'm as likely to hear Spanish, Arabic, Italian or English as I am French - and then the French is likely to be African or Francais tinged - so another language altogether lol

…

I remember living in Ontario where everybody 'celebrated' cultures but there was no actual engagement ie: actually learning a language.

Weak sauce, hollow grounds, no commitment.

Very good. How’s your Arabic and Italian coming along?

And what is Ontario Culture anyways? is there such a thing?

"See that place that's pretending to be New York? That's actually Toronto!"

Ontario Canadian culture.. I'll pass..

Ontario culture is culture produced in Ontario. Maybe it’s not the kind of capital “C” culture that you find in an illustrated children’s book from the 1950s, but it’s culture nonetheless. Whenever there are people in groups, culture forms as a result. Are you telling me that the average Québécois family sits down to eat Poutine and Tourtiere every night?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

It’s not the langage issue, that’s for sure. La CAQ is making a big fuss about that in a mostly demagogic move, but Quebecers are mostly worried about the failure of our health system, inflation, gun violence (Montreal) and shortage of employees.

Wasn’t it in Les Invasions Barbares where the rich son pays off a hospital union leader under the table so his dying father can get a room? That was a pretty good indication to the outside world that not all was well with the Quebec welfare state.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Whenever there are people in groups, culture forms as a result.

There is little that grates more on nerves that dealing with some starry-eyed person who comes back from (insert country here) and proceeds to ramble on about how they're so cultured there, Canada is backwards and has no culture, the sun shines everyday and it's 22C all the time there.

I get it. There's a lot that is different and exciting about a new place, and a lot of places have good ideas we'd do well to emulate. But at the end of the day, the places are more alike in the developed world: people have families, go to work, and enjoy sports/literature/life/food.

One can be part of something pretty much anywhere. Culture isn't something sold through a screen, it's just lived life with other people. The most 'cultured' people just lived life the most, whatever that may be. The most irritating people were the ones who never shut up about culture and made it a pretentious social marker.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by thewave46

But at the end of the day, the places are more alike in the developed world: people have families, go to work, and enjoy sports/literature/life/food.

A lot of the arguments I see about why Canada (or "the generic non-Quebec and non-Newfoundland majority of Canada") has no culture apply to most of the developed world. For example, American entertainment media are popular in a lot of places, and a lot of productions in other countries are either spinoffs or imitations (Top Chef France, Drag Race UK, Star Académie). It is not as though Beyoncé is popular in just the US and Canada. She can probably fill a stadium in Osaka or Abu Dhabi. And people all around the world are playing American video games.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

A lot of the arguments I see about why Canada (or "the generic non-Quebec and non-Newfoundland majority of Canada") has no culture apply to most of the developed world. .

I see your broader point (and will address it in another post) but do you really think that most of the developed world is more like "non-Quebec, non-Newfoundland Canada" than it is like Quebec and Newfoundland?

I'd quite strongly argue that most of the developed world (UK, Ireland, Sweden, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Australia, Japan, etc.) is way more like Quebec and Newfoundland in terms of having a balance of local particularities on the one hand - often fairly dominant - and globalist stuff on the other. As opposed to mainland Anglo-Canada where things are much less locally focused and rooted, and instead is more dominantly "global" (which is to say "American" the vast majority of the time).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Are you telling me that the average Québécois family sits down to eat Poutine and Tourtiere every night?

I don't think that's the point.

What would you serve that doesn't come from somewhere else to someone if they asked for typical Ontario or Toronto cuisine?

Even Italians don't eat pasta all the time, but people sure as hell know what Italian cuisine is.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Ontario culture is culture produced in Ontario. Maybe it’s not the kind of capital “C” culture that you find in an illustrated children’s book from the 1950s, but it’s culture nonetheless. Whenever there are people in groups, culture forms as a result.

This is correct. There is certainly tons of culture produced in Toronto and Ontario, much of it refined and rich.

I think the point is more that so very little of it feels rooted in any way in the place that it originates from.

[hipster duck]

^If they want a peameal bacon sandwich and a butter tart, I can provide.

You know what makes a local culture “authentic”, right? Government subsidies and a good marketing team.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

For example, American entertainment media are popular in a lot of places, and a lot of productions in other countries are either spinoffs or imitations (Top Chef France, Drag Race UK, Star Académie). It is not as though Beyoncé is popular in just the US and Canada. She can probably fill a stadium in Osaka or Abu Dhabi. And people all around the world are playing American video games.

Yes, there is a lot of cultural homogenization going on in the developed world.

But I've mentioned before that the true cultural difference between London and Paris might only be in the 20-30% range and that everything else is quite similar even maybe identical.

Still, it's that percentage that makes the two cities feel like completely different places.

And of course there are artists that can fill stadiums in Osaka and Abu Dhabi that we've never heard of.

Stuff like that, Beyoncé world tours notwithstanding, is what makes these places unique.

[hipster duck]

BTW, the most highly-rated “Québécois” cuisine in the world might be found in Vancouver.

A lot of what you get on the menu might be unrecognizable to your average Québécois family. So is it Québécois food or is it the chef’s IP?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think that's the point.

What would you serve that doesn't come from somewhere else to someone if they asked for typical Ontario or Toronto cuisine?

That “iconic” cornmeal ham sandwich…?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

BTW, the most highly-rated “Québécois” cuisine in the world might be found in Vancouver.

A lot of what you get on the menu might be unrecognizable to your average Québécois family. So is it Québécois food or is it the chef’s IP?

“Highly rated” doesn’t mean “authentic”; in fact they’re usually incompatible (the typical stuff that locals eat all the time is basically guaranteed to not be high end).

“Authentic” Mexican food and “Gourmet” Mexican food are very distinguishable, etc etc etc.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is correct. There is certainly tons of culture produced in Toronto and Ontario, much of it refined and rich.

I think the point is more that so very little of it feels rooted in any way in the place that it originates from.

This is sort of the crux of it, I guess.

It comes down to what one genuinely enjoys, and if that necessarily maps to a neat geographic area. Is culture such a narrow topic that only the certain markers (TV/movies/distinctively regional food/music/sports) are valid ones? Does an outdoorsy lifestyle matter, and is that distinctively Canadian marker? Would we be better if we liked exclusively Canadian things, however one wants to define that? Can a Kiwi like Australian rules football and still be a Kiwi?

From this (albeit narrow) perspective, Anglo-Canada is America-lite with its own little quirks and seems to genuinely enjoy being that. I suppose as long as we can have a serious conversation about the things that matter in this country and understand our context in that, my opinion is that Canadians can like the NFL all they want, if they want to.

People hated hipsters because there was no genuineness; it was all pretentiousness. Are they drinking Labatt 50 (or Pabst) because they genuinely enjoyed the taste, or was it the facade of anti-pretentiousness hiding pretentiousness? (Answer: of course it was them being pretentious and that's why they were hated)

We are status seeking animals, and the more we get mixed up in that, the more things get blurry.

[JHikka]

I think there needs to be more flexibility on what is viewed as 'Canadian' and what is viewed as local culture. We might look down on the Toronto mans accent, or how Haitian creole is shifting French in Montreal, but they're both similar byproducts of local urban culture. Those creations are more local and cultural than many other imported items in those cities. Both of these are examples of things rooted in local cultures, in both cases derived from local populations. Same goes for Toronto jerk or roti, Ottawa shawarma, or any other plethora of food options across this country. As time passes culture shifts, and in a country like Canada I don't think many understand just how quickly that culture is shifting. Just because that culture of what you experienced or viewed as a child isn't as prevalent doesn't mean the area is now bereft of local culture - that culture simply shifted and changed.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

“Highly rated” doesn’t mean “authentic”; in fact they’re usually incompatible (the typical stuff that locals eat all the time is basically guaranteed to not be high end).

But Vancouver does have a good food scene that has a lot of its own uniqueness that flows from a mix of local ingredients, local innovation, and the particular blend of cultures that came here. It's not just highly rated with no substance nor could it be transplanted to Indianapolis. It is much more sophisticated than anywhere in Quebec aside from Montreal. It exists independently of what language people here speak or if they talk like pirates or do folk dancing.