Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

I’m pretty sure that we could sell power to the Yankees with French-language-only contracts, if we really insisted on it

If the price is right.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by samne

Look at Australia for nationalist sentiment in the Anglosphere. I found quite the Australia for/by Aussies there.

Eh, I'm not a huge fan of the Aussie model.

Brash and bold, but missing the key points of real nationalism.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Careful MonctonRad. You'll invite a 20 page discourse on what would have happened if Napoleon had defeated the British and Quebec had become the seat of power in North America.

Now that you point it out, I can’t help but wonder why those conversations, whenever it’s with MonctonRad that they’re had, are never unpleasant nor uncivil. I think I’m going to have to agree with rousseau there …

[lio45]

Originally Posted by niwell

I spent a day in Copenhagen cycling and drinking with a Polish chef who'd lived there for 7 years. He didn't use the exact same words but certainly relayed the sentiment of "private club for the Danes". He certainly wasn't annoyed about it in the same way that the McKinsey type would be, but moreso that no matter how hard he tried he'd never *really* be considered Danish. Despite looking the part and speaking the language fluently - accent notwithstanding which apparently was the tell. Though being from Eastern Europe the ultimate sentiment was more of a "so it goes" view.

Interestingly, the reverse is just as true: a Dane, even one who has lived for years in Poland and speaks decent Polish, will never be a true Pole.

I think that’s the sort of thing one must just learn to accept. That’s how things are, and that’s it.

We have a family friend who’s been living in Japan for a couple decades. Despite speaking Japanese nowadays, he’ll just never “be Japanese”. Pretty sure Metro-One if he checks this thread will say the exact same.

“Learn to accept what you can’t change” is a pretty decent motto. If you can’t deal with “living in Japan while not being ethnically Japanese”, that’s okay, it’s your right; you can just move to another place.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Interestingly, the reverse is just as true: a Dane, even one who has lived for years in Poland and speaks decent Polish, will never be a true Pole.

I think that’s the sort of thing one must just learn to accept. That’s how things are, and that’s it.

We have a family friend who’s been living in Japan for a couple decades. Despite speaking Japanese nowadays, he’ll just never “be Japanese”. Pretty sure Metro-One if he checks this thread will say the exact same.

“Learn to accept what you can’t change” is a pretty decent motto. If you can’t deal with “living in Japan while not being ethnically Japanese”, that’s okay, it’s your right; you can just move to another place.

I don't think multiculturalist Canadians give much thought to or even think that Jean-Guy Tremblay from Rimouski or Patrick Noseworthy from Corner Brook should be considered fully "Japanese" in Osaka, or "Jamaican" in Negril.

They also don't have much time for Josiane Dubois or Shelley Friesen's right to wear "whatever the hell they want" (ie a croptop and lululemon leggings) while walking down the street in, say, Tehran.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Now that you point it out, I can’t help but wonder why those conversations, whenever it’s with MonctonRad that they’re had, are never unpleasant nor uncivil. I think I’m going to have to agree with rousseau there …

Thanks. Occasionally (like you), I play the devil's advocate (which is a legitimate debating strategy in order to reveal inconsistencies or contradictions in an opponents arguments), but this is almost never done in a malicious manner.

Such a strategy however can be provocative, and can give some people conniption fits. This in itself can be revealing, as it can show your opponents real character and motivations.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

They are a bit clannish.

The same point being brought up about the Danes and the Quebecois (maitre chez nous) can also be made about the Acadians here in NB.

Bilingualism is an important goal of the educational system here in NB, with many anglophone families sending their children to early or late immersion schools. The results can be inconsistent (poor teaching, lack of motivation), but there are some real success stories with some anglophones attaining a high level of French proficiency..

Despite this however, some institutions and businesses (the ones that are considered pillars of Acadian society around here), when they advertise a job as "bilingualism essential" really mean "Acadians only need apply." Sometimes they aren't even very subtle about it either............

It kinda makes you wonder about the whole point of becoming bilingual in the first place.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by lio45

Now that you point it out, I can’t help but wonder why those conversations, whenever it’s with MonctonRad that they’re had, are never unpleasant nor uncivil. I think I’m going to have to agree with rousseau there …

Maybe it helps being part of the anti woke circle?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec sovereignists are fond of bringing up stuff like when Chrylser and Daimler merged 20 years ago, the Germans told the American execs that they had to learn German as they wouldn't change the language of their meetings to English just for them.

Originally Posted by thewave46

An aside: That merger was far from a match made in heaven, from a casual observer of the auto industry.

More like: How one can ruin a perfectly profitable company (Chrysler Corporation), chase the talent away, and leave the husk for someone else after feasting vampire-like on it for the better part of a decade.

If the goal is to work cooperatively, acknowledging the cultural differences and different styles of doing things and using the best of both to accomplish great things is better. (Seemingly applicable to Canada/Quebec, no?) Think Airbus and not Daimler-Chrysler.

From all accounts, the situation was as thewave46 has presented it.

That said, the Quebec sovereigntists are probably using a made-up story to bolster their argument, as the 'demand' for American execs to learn German just wouldn't be practical, or attainable in a timely fashion. That's why we have translators.

FWIW, the culture clash of that "merger" was very real, as indicated in the 1999 article linked below, but it appeared to be more about how business is done vs actual language or culture barriers (though there were cases where language/culture differences caused misunderstandings in things like the meaning of a particular instruction or agreement). You'll note that there is no mention, in the article, of a demand for Americans to learn the German language.

https://europe.autonews.com/article/1999...-daimlerchrysler-was-worse-than-expected

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The same point being brought up about the Danes and the Quebecois (maitre chez nous) can also be made about the Acadians here in NB.

Bilingualism is an important goal of the educational system here in NB, with many anglophone families sending their children to early or late immersion schools. The results can be inconsistent (poor teaching, lack of motivation), but there are some real success stories with some anglophones attaining a high level of French proficiency..

Despite this however, some institutions and businesses (the ones that are considered pillars of Acadian society around here), when they advertise a job as "bilingualism essential" really mean "Acadians only need apply." Sometimes they aren't even very subtle about it either............

It kinda makes you wonder about the whole point of becoming bilingual in the first place.

Seems pretty easy to challenge if the criteria for establishing bilingualism are transparent.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Seems pretty easy to challenge if the criteria for establishing bilingualism are transparent.

Oh I don't know. This could be the argument before the tribunal.

"We acknowledge that Mr. Smith has excellent French language skills, but we felt that M. LeBlanc was a culturally more sensitive choice for the position since he is well acquainted with the systemic discrimination experienced by the francophone minority in NB, and therefore would be more sympathetic to the travails of our clientele. We also feel that our clients would be better able to relate to him, and thus we would be providing them with a better service. We wish Mr. Smith well in his future endeavours..........."

[GreaterMontréal]

Quebec is only about 60yo. Our situation and history is unique and should not be compared. Quebec is going for the long run.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Source

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

And sometimes I'm not sure I want to leave Scandinavia, although I'd like to be in my own mother tongue (and arguably mother culture) for the first time in a quarter century.

Mother tongue yes, but after 25 years outside mainstream anglo America, you might be surprised how alienated you feel in that culture...

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Mother tongue yes, but after 25 years outside mainstream anglo America, you might be surprised how alienated you feel in that culture...

Canada isn't America, but they say it's like riding a bike. In all fairness, going from the west coast to east coast can be a bit like that. In fact, in Vancouver the east end used to be a social shock for west enders.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Mother tongue yes, but after 25 years outside mainstream anglo America, you might be surprised how alienated you feel in that culture...

This is definitely a concern, and maybe it could be intensified by being in the US rather than Canada.

Alternatively, there's a possibility that Canadian specifics could be stranger than US ones given the latter's oversized place in the language and things you pick up abroad.

Still, I've always liked New York.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Mother tongue yes, but after 25 years outside mainstream anglo America, you might be surprised how alienated you feel in that culture...

You can never go home again.

The Canada that you knew 25 years ago no longer exists.

The Canada of today is still a magnificent country, but if you return, it will take a little time to adapt.

[lio45]

He left Canada ~10 years ago, after living ~15 years in Montreal.

I’ll let you guys debate whether he lived 25 years in a foreign culture or just 10

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

He left Canada ~10 years ago, after living ~15 years in Montreal.

I’ll let you guys debate whether he just went 25 years in a foreign culture or just 10

C'est la meme chose.

[hipster duck]

Question: what are the big issues that keep Québécois awake at night? We all know the big English Canada problems: our cities are unaffordable; we have a growing inter generational wealth gap that can’t end well; our industries are sclerotic and seem more interested in paying dividends than investing in productivity that would make Canada competitive. I could go on. I haven’t begun to address other social issues, like First Nations, drug epidemics or a growing underclass. We discuss these ad nauseam on this board.

But what are uniquely Quebec problems that are largely of the province’s own making? So, not problems that Quebec can deflect on the ROC.