Ottawa-Gatineau Tourism

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Indoor amusement park? Great. Waterfront boardwalks and something like Rec Room? Perfect. I like what Zibi is doing with the Chaudiere Falls, maybe more implementation of that as a tourist attraction would be nice. But those things need to get done before tourists can say "I definitely want to visit Ottawa".

The National Capital Act gives the NCC power to

(f) construct, maintain and operate, or grant concessions for the operation of, places of entertainment, amusement, recreation, refreshment, or other places of public interest or accommodation on any property of the Commission;

But as far as I know has never used this mandate, instead focusing on a narrow range of Edwardian pastimes.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Or at the very least it would attract Condor type airlines catering to vacationers (Condor flies to Whitehorse, for example, or did before the pandemic.)

Condor flies to Halifax and Edmonton too. Whitehorse is a great example. There's no way they have the population (28k) to support outbound flying. So it's all inbound from European tourists.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Like I said earlier, part of the reason this city is so suburbanized is because we're such a suburban country and so much of who moves here are basically bland suburbanites.

Hopefully the next decade of strong urban growth and a real heft of downtown condo dwellers finally gets us a constituency for urbanism that is organic to Ottawa itself.

I'm not a suburban guy and would never live in one but North America's road network, planning polices and economy have enabled a typical even working class couple to have their own SFH with a yard and personal space for all without grueling commutes. This has broken down a bit in Toronto recently of course.

This is what the vast majority of people aspire to even when they tell pollsters they are concerned with climate change and walkability.

N

[Truenorth00]

I'm not suggesting people be stopped from living in suburban SFH (though I do support liberalizing zoning). What I'm saying is that culture tends to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 in highly suburbanized cities. Mississauga has the same population as Ottawa. I doubt you think it's an attractive place to visit. In most cities, it's the urbanites who tend to define the culture and spirit of the city. And Ottawa tends to suffer on this one, because its truly urban population is small.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

This is the most laughable list. Dundurn Castle #3?? Fort Henry #5 ????

They’re both legit and significantly intact 19th historical sites that tell a story about Canadian history. Ottawa has no attractions of this type, anything remotely old in Ottawa has been “modernized.”

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Peameal bacon sandwich!!!

It was almost as notorious as Okotoks at one time!

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You can't be serious. There's three large global alliances. Air Canada and its Star Alliance partners are just one. British Airways/Aer Lingus with Oneworld and Air France/KLM with SkyTeam both go toe-to-toe with Air Canada at several AC hubs. AFKL does get some feed from WestJet, but certainly not enough to support 4-6 flights per day from Montreal and 2-3 per day from Toronto. And this is before we discuss the entire universe of non-aligned network and discount carriers that could fly to Ottawa. Icelandair comes to mind, for example.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here. Yes, other alliances try to compete at several hubs, but as you note, they are at a serious disadvantage to Air Canada without the extensive feeder network in Canada to support the service.

For their own hubs. This doesn't apply to destinations, which are spokes. Are you seriously suggesting that airlines all over the world only fly to each others hubs, including those of their competitors? Why exactly would Air France or British Airways want to go head to head with air Canada in Toronto and Montreal with all the advantages that AC has at those airports, if they don't have to?

Not sure where I suggested that airlines only fly to each other's hubs. I just noted that Air Canada has an advantage where it has access to a true hub model on both sides of the Atlantic. Sure other airlines can fly to non-hub cities, but what I actually suggested was that it is less efficient for them to do that.

Which speaks to the poor yield (reasonable proxy for demand) to/from Ottawa. There isn't enough to justify the startup costs in Ottawa.

You commented that airlines will add a third or fourth flight to Toronto before starting up in Ottawa. I was pointing out that there are factors that influence those decisions that go beyond demand. You haven't really refuted that point.

It's economically ignorant and conspiratorial to claim the world's airlines are ignoring YOW because they are clueless. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the truth: the demand isn't there.

Or sometimes there are multiple reasons for a thing. In this case, one of those reasons is Air Canada's dominance. They have little to lose by routing captive Ottawa passengers through their hubs, while there are massive entry barriers for foreign carriers looking to provide direct service from here.

So we went from a whole long discussion on how nobody can get past Air Canada's dominance. But now it's all hopeful that tiny Porter will base a hub in YOW? If you were right about AC's dominance, Porter will get crushed. So which is it?

For the record, I've been nothing but cheerful about Porter coming to Ottawa. And I think it shows that YYZ and YUL can be bypassed. But the business case is also not as rosy as folks like you imagine. Especially for the international carriers.

"Folks like me" haven't commented on the strength of the business case for Porter. I just noted that Porter is betting on the demand for direct connections from Ottawa being there, based on the fact that this market isn't being well served by Air Canada. I certainly don't harbour any illusions that breaking Air Canada's dominance is an easy task.

This discussion would be more productive if you responded to what was actually written rather than what you assume people like me are suggesting.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here. Yes, other alliances try to compete at several hubs, but as you note, they are at a serious disadvantage to Air Canada without the extensive feeder network in Canada to support the service.




Not sure where I suggested that airlines only fly to each other's hubs. I just noted that Air Canada has an advantage where it has access to a true hub model on both sides of the Atlantic. Sure other airlines can fly to non-hub cities, but what I actually suggested was that it is less efficient for them to do that.



You commented that airlines will add a third or fourth flight to Toronto before starting up in Ottawa. I was pointing out that there are factors that influence those decisions that go beyond demand. You haven't really refuted that point.



Or sometimes there are multiple reasons for a thing. In this case, one of those reasons is Air Canada's dominance. They have little to lose by routing captive Ottawa passengers through their hubs, while there are massive entry barriers for foreign carriers looking to provide direct service from here.



"Folks like me" haven't commented on the strength of the business case for Porter. I just noted that Porter is betting on the demand for direct connections from Ottawa being there, based on the fact that this market isn't being well served by Air Canada. I certainly don't harbour any illusions that breaking Air Canada's dominance is an easy task.

This discussion would be more productive if you responded to what was actually written rather than what you assume people like me are suggesting.

People on this thread have argued that Ottawa itself is a significant draw for international tourists. In that is the case then there should be demand for at least a seasonal or charter direct flight to Ottawa from international airlines (the way that Air Canada and Westjet fly to Edinburgh, for example).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

People on this thread have argued that Ottawa itself is a significant draw for international tourists. In that is the case then there should be demand for at least a seasonal or charter direct flight to Ottawa from international airlines (the way that Air Canada and Westjet fly to Edinburgh, for example).

I believe that Air Transat has seasonal flights on Quebec City-Paris and Quebec City-London routings. And that Air France has a Quebec City-Paris seasonal route too.

Of course, this isn't all Londoners and Parisians coming to see Quebec City. Lots of people going the other way too.

Note that Quebec City is a bit further from Montreal than Ottawa is. Especially Dorval which is on the other side of the city. Whereas Dorval is on the "Ottawa side" of Montreal.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

People on this thread have argued that Ottawa itself is a significant draw for international tourists. In that is the case then there should be demand for at least a seasonal or charter direct flight to Ottawa from international airlines (the way that Air Canada and Westjet fly to Edinburgh, for example).

I guess some of that turns on your definition of "significant". I found a figure of 11 million tourists coming to Ottawa annually, but I couldn't find the stats broken down in terms of international tourists. Whatever the number was, it was up 10% in 2018, so there is hope. I think that most people here are arguing that if we got a few direct flights, that number would be much higher.

Also, as Acajack pointed out, the demand for those flights isn't just foreign tourists. A direct Paris flight, for instance, would almost certainly draw more Ottawa people going to Paris than the reverse.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Also, as Acajack pointed out, the demand for those flights isn't just foreign tourists. A direct Paris flight, for instance, would almost certainly draw more Ottawa people going to Paris than the reverse.

And as acotawa's example of Condor in Whitehorse shows if there's significant tourist demand, service materializes.

Whitehorse with a population of 28k can support seasonal service from a major global hub. Sure it's one flight a week. But that's more than what Ottawa has.

https://www.flightera.net/en/flight/Condor-Frankfurt-Whitehorse/DE2426

If all your arguments were true about Air Canada's dominance, why does this flight exist?

Same on Quebec City's flights. That's a metro with half the population of Ottawa-Gatineau. Yet they can sustain service to two large global hubs. Again, if the excuse is Air Canada, why hasn't AC stopped AF and TS there?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here. Yes, other alliances try to compete at several hubs, but as you note, they are at a serious disadvantage to Air Canada without the extensive feeder network in Canada to support the service.
.
Not sure where I suggested that airlines only fly to each other's hubs. I just noted that Air Canada has an advantage where it has access to a true hub model on both sides of the Atlantic. Sure other airlines can fly to non-hub cities, but what I actually suggested was that it is less efficient for them to do that.
.
You commented that airlines will add a third or fourth flight to Toronto before starting up in Ottawa. I was pointing out that there are factors that influence those decisions that go beyond demand. You haven't really refuted that point.

Your argument previously was that airlines only fly to hubs because that's where they get feed. That's clearly not true. And that was my point. It's in the best interest of airlines competing with Air Canada/Star Alliance to bypass YYZ and YUL. If they aren't doing that, to serve YOW, the demand isn't there. Ottawa's business case is so poor that they would rather take another slot at an AC hub than start up at YOW. If Ottawa was such an amazing tourist city, this would not be the case.

Actual tourist draws have zero issues attracting foreign carriers. There's no shortage of international carriers flying directly to Las Vegas and Orlando, for example.

Originally Posted by phil235

Or sometimes there are multiple reasons for a thing. In this case, one of those reasons is Air Canada's dominance. They have little to lose by routing captive Ottawa passengers through their hubs, while there are massive entry barriers for foreign carriers looking to provide direct service from here.

This is only true if an airline needs feed. And an airline only needs feed if local demand is insufficient. See all the examples in this thread.

Originally Posted by phil235

This discussion would be more productive if you responded to what was actually written rather than what you assume people like me are suggesting.

Likewise this would be more productive if there discussion was based on reality instead of conspiracy and wishful thinking.

Airlines aren't ignoring Ottawa because of Air Canada's supposed dominance. They have no issues taking on said dominance elsewhere. Including at Air Canada's own hubs. They also aren't ignoring Ottawa because of a lack of feed. There's no feed for them in Halifax or Quebec City or Whitehorse. It's okay to admit that maybe the demand just isn't there and we need to work on it.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And as acotawa's example of Condor in Whitehorse shows if there's significant tourist demand, service materializes.

Whitehorse with a population of 28k can support seasonal service from a major global hub. Sure it's one flight a week. But that's more than what Ottawa has.

https://www.flightera.net/en/flight/Condor-Frankfurt-Whitehorse/DE2426

If all your arguments were true about Air Canada's dominance, why does this flight exist?

Same on Quebec City's flights. That's a metro with half the population of Ottawa-Gatineau. Yet they can sustain service to two large global hubs. Again, if the excuse is Air Canada, why hasn't AC stopped AF and TS there?

I'd just say that citing a few exceptions doesn't really disprove a general point about Air Canada's dominance in Canada as a whole.

And your Quebec examples really just demonstrate that a smaller centre can support those types of direct flights if given the chance. Just based on population size and income levels, Ottawa should have at least double the demand of Quebec for outgoing travel. And if you want to talk yields, Quebec City likely has less business travelers than Ottawa does.

[YOWhopeful]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'd just say that citing a few exceptions doesn't really disprove a general point about Air Canada's dominance in Canada as a whole.

And your Quebec examples really just demonstrate that a smaller centre can support those types of direct flights if given the chance. Just based on population size and income levels, Ottawa should have at least double the demand of Quebec for outgoing travel. And if you want to talk yields, Quebec City likely has less business travelers than Ottawa does.

Yet Ottawa did used to have LHR as well as FRA for a time. I took both in business and as I recall flights seemed mostly pretty full. Sure there were some empty seats and I was not travelling during the summer season.
I think Ottawa does have the demand. It’s just that AC knows we’re willing to drive to MTL so why bother. Other airlines probably don’t know that so many Ottawans drive to MTL unless it’s true that they would have access to such data as someone here mentioned previously based on credit card addresses.

These are just examples: Assuming you’re flying to Istambul and you choose BA from YUL to LHR and onward to Istambul. Does BA know or even care to know that you drove to YUL. Also if Turkish airlines is curious to see what passengers it doesn’t capture on its direct from YUL, would they even know that you drove from Ottawa? You appear to them as flying from YUL.
Finally back to BA, I bet you there are lots of towns in greater London that are two hours away from Heathrow and still considered Greater London for flying purposes. This is true of Paris as well. Therein lies the problem: Ottawa is just too close to Montreal

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'd just say that citing a few exceptions doesn't really disprove a general point about Air Canada's dominance in Canada as a whole.

And your Quebec examples really just demonstrate that a smaller centre can support those types of direct flights if given the chance. Just based on population size and income levels, Ottawa should have at least double the demand of Quebec for outgoing travel. And if you want to talk yields, Quebec City likely has less business travelers than Ottawa does.

"Given the chance"?

This isn't some reality show where airlines make all a city's dreams come true. They put up service because there is a business case. The fact that Quebec City can build one without business travel says a lot about Quebec City's attractiveness as a tourist destination. Conversely, that Ottawa has some business travel and can't attract direct international connections also says a lot.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Likewise this would be more productive if there discussion was based on reality instead of conspiracy and wishful thinking.

Airlines aren't ignoring Ottawa because of Air Canada's supposed dominance. They have no issues taking on said dominance elsewhere. Including at Air Canada's own hubs. They also aren't ignoring Ottawa because of a lack of feed. There's no feed for them in Halifax or Quebec City or Whitehorse. It's okay to admit that maybe the demand just isn't there and we need to work on it.

Sure, Ottawa can work on being a bigger draw for foreign tourists. But that is only part of the demand equation. You seem to be ignoring the fact that there is also the outgoing demand that is probably the bigger factor for passengers numbers for most, if not all, major Canadian cities.

Why do you think that a very affluent metro of 1.5 million people has such limited demand for direct air travel? On the face of it, it makes no sense that Quebec, at half the size and lower overall income levels has sufficient demand and we don't. Without an obvious explanation it's pretty clear that there are other factors at play than just demand.

If you could show me that Quebec gets many times more international tourists than Ottawa, that might be part of an explanation, but I haven't seen anything to that effect from you. The official tourism numbers are actually higher for Ottawa.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

I think Ottawa does have the demand. It’s just that AC knows we’re willing to drive to MTL so why bother. Other airlines probably don’t know that so many Ottawans drive to MTL unless it’s true that they would have access to such data as someone here mentioned previously based on credit card addresses.

Completely agree. AC has very little to lose by making Ottawans drive to Montreal or connect through Toronto, so there isn't much incentive to offer direct flights.

I'm more just challenging the contention that demand here is low, and that the market would immediately provide direct flights if Ottawa had sufficient demand. There is no such thing as a perfectly operating free market, and the airline sector is a long, long way from a free market.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

Other airlines probably don’t know that so many Ottawans drive to MTL unless it’s true that they would have access to such data as someone here mentioned previously based on credit card addresses.

I don't buy this. BA in particular is known for finding niches. Austin and Portland are examples of such destinations. Gotta have the yield though.

Something to keep in mind with connector airlines, every destination adds to demand from every other destination. If BA flies to Ottawa, they have a whole network east of Heathrow that will feed that flight. It's not just about Ottawa to London and Ottawa to Europe. If they aren't coming, it's because they can't make the case to put a widebody aircraft and a Heathrow slot on such a service.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

Yet Ottawa did used to have LHR as well as FRA for a time. I took both in business and as I recall flights seemed mostly pretty full. Sure there were some empty seats and I was not travelling during the summer season.
I think Ottawa does have the demand. It’s just that AC knows we’re willing to drive to MTL so why bother. Other airlines probably don’t know that so many Ottawans drive to MTL unless it’s true that they would have access to such data as someone here mentioned previously based on credit card addresses.

These are just examples: Assuming you’re flying to Istambul and you choose BA from YUL to LHR and onward to Istambul. Does BA know or even care to know that you drove to YUL. Also if Turkish airlines is curious to see what passengers it doesn’t capture on its direct from YUL, would they even know that you drove from Ottawa? You appear to them as flying from YUL.
Finally back to BA, I bet you there are lots of towns in greater London that are two hours away from Heathrow and still considered Greater London for flying purposes. This is true of Paris as well. Therein lies the problem: Ottawa is just too close to Montreal

If you’re willing to drive 2 hours, you can take the direct flight to Istanbul

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Completely agree. AC has very little to lose by making Ottawans drive to Montreal or connect through Toronto, so there isn't much incentive to offer direct flights.

I'm more just challenging the contention that demand here is low, and that's the only reason that we don't have direct flights.

I totally agree that AC has an incentive to make people drive to Montreal. BA does not. If they let people drive to Montreal then they are in competition with dozens of transatlantic Star Alliance flights and One World really only has one. If they fly to Ottawa they would have an effective monopoly on the Ottawa transatlantic market. The only plausible reason is insufficient demand.