Ottawa-Gatineau Tourism

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Strawmanning is his go to.....

i'm not straw-manning. I'm pointing out that your negative view of the city has more to do with projection behaviour than an accurate view of the city.

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Sure, Escapade and Bluesfest might be equal to Toronto or Montreal's version (which in itself should be celebrated), but it's undeniably better than cities its own size in this aspect (notably Edmonton or Calgary).

I think the culture aspect is a bit difficult. In general, Canada doesn't have a necessarily strong brand or culture, most likely due to its age and it's melting pot of other cultures. You go to Italy, for the leather, fashion, pasta, espressos, etc.. Ottawa (and Canada as a whole), doesn't necessarily have that strong CANADIANA brand for people to experience.

There is no equal to Bluesfest in Toronto or Montreal. People fail to realize it is one of the biggest/best music festivals in the country and continent.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

If you honestly believe Toronto is one of the best food cities in the world

Depending on how one ranks food cities, it is. It's very nearly up there with LA and NY.

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

, and that Ottawa is even remotely comparable to Brasilia or Canberra then you've lost all credibility whatsoever and I'm signing off.

If you can't see how they're related then i'm not sure what else to really say.

Originally Posted by Acajack

years ago we were travelling as a family and as we are the ice hotel in Quebec City one of my kids made this very observation: that Ottawa basically copied cool stuff from other cities, from Winterlude to a château-like hotel downtown to the waterpark to Bluesfest - which is when you think about it copying the ethos pioneered by the Montreal Jazz Festival by going beyond the definition of a single musical genre.

Tell anyone from China about Winterlude in Ottawa and they'll probably tell you about the exceptional Harbin Winter Festival. Like...

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

There is no equal to Bluesfest in Toronto or Montreal. People fail to realize it is one of the biggest/best music festivals in the country and continent.

TIFF, Just For Laughs, Jazzfest...

TIFF is the largest and most visited public movie festival in the world. I don't think many realize that.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

i'm not straw-manning. I'm pointing out that your negative view of the city has more to do with projection behaviour than an accurate view of the city.

Aside, from you supposedly being able to read minds....

My view of the city is realistic and in line with the flight services this city gets. If you were right, again, I ask, why are airlines more willing to add a second, third, or fourth flight to Toronto and Montreal instead of starting a single service to Ottawa?

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Some years ago we were travelling as a family and as we are the ice hotel in Quebec City one of my kids made this very observation: that Ottawa basically copied cool stuff from other cities, from Winterlude to a château-like hotel downtown to the waterpark to Bluesfest - which is when you think about it copying the ethos pioneered by the Montreal Jazz Festival by going beyond the definition of a single musical genre.

All cities steel and borrow ideas that can work... Toronto didn't invent the observation tower nor the international film festival and Montreal isn't the birthplace of F1 races and soccer specific stadiums, yet these activities and infrastructures thrive and no one cares if the idea has been copied. It's a matter of using things that align correctly with your city's ethos and strengths. Ottawa is a winter city with a massive ice rink in the middle of it (which is, ironically, pretty unique)... It would be madness not to take advantage of the situation. And water parks are a dime a dozen... They are as common as movie theatres and shopping malls.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's a sidebar, but recently my partner was in the Middle East and spent about a month travelling around, primarily in Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Both of these countries are pushing their tourism industries hard to varying results. What you'll find in places like Qatar and the Arab Emirates is that local culture is...very sparse. The idea of culture in these places is simply to take the best things from other places and plant them into the Middle East. There's a famous restaurant in New York? Now it's in Dubai. There's a famous store in London? Now there's one in Qatar. It's the idea that culture can be bought and supplied and moved from one place to another as if it's equivalent. You can see this in, like, Las Vegas building an Eiffel Tower or something. It's not exactly the same thing no matter how similar it may be.

I bring this up because I see this sort of attitude at times in Ottawa. Maybe we should have a waterpark because they're popular elsewhere. Maybe we should have an aquarium because they're popular elsewhere. That's not a solution, you're merely replicating other places. What makes your city and region unique? That's what you build upon. Build that character and uniqueness and people will show up for it eventually.

I bring this up often to people in the Maritimes when they get excited about new franchise chains opening up. It's not unique or exciting or really noteworthy. Just supplanting local culture with franchise culture from elsewhere. Yawn.

I think people have trouble distinguishing an amenity for a local vs. an attraction for a visitor. A metro of 1.4M should have an aquarium and a water park. Those are amenities for the locals. Unless it's world beating, it's not going to be an attraction for tourists. Or at least, it might not end up being an attraction for international tourists. For example, Canada's Wonderland probably gets visitors from a maximum of a 200 km catchment. But the Disney parks will literally get people flying across oceans to visit them. So Canada's Wonderland is more of a GTA amenity than tourist attraction. Disney World is an actual global tourist attraction.

The countries and cities trying to build up tourist hubs (like those in the Middle East) actually understand this. They focus on building up a portfolio of globally renowned attractions. Heck, they've worked on building global superconnector airlines, just so that they can use the aviation hub to bring tourists and business. Obviously, that kind of scheming is not an option for Ottawa.

But the cities that sort of come to mind for building their own brand organically, while not having much in the way or remarkable attractions are Austin and Portland. There's no fancy museums or natural attractions or fantastic architectural heritage. They each have local culture that eventually got them labelled as "cool". Heck, even South by Southwest didn't really become prominent until the mid-90s and it was started as a regional festival. What makes these places cool is that they developed their own culture and vibe. Austin isn't constantly fretting about being overshadowed by Dallas and Houston. Portland isn't trying to become San Francisco. This is what Ottawa needs to work on. Defining its own identity. Hell, we can start by at least becoming more of a cultural centre for Eastern Ontario. Doesn't even feel like Ottawa is that plugged into the surrounding region a lot of times.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I think people have trouble distinguishing an amenity for a local vs. an attraction for a visitor. A metro of 1.4M should have an aquarium and a water park. Those are amenities for the locals. Unless it's world beating, it's not going to be an attraction for tourists. Or at least, it might not end up being an attraction for international tourists. For example, Canada's Wonderland probably gets visitors from a maximum of a 200 km catchment. But the Disney parks will literally get people flying across oceans to visit them. So Canada's Wonderland is more of a GTA amenity than tourist attraction. Disney World is an actual global tourist attraction.

The countries and cities trying to build up tourist hubs (like those in the Middle East) actually understand this. They focus on building up a portfolio of globally renowned attractions. Heck, they've worked on building global superconnector airlines, just so that they can use the aviation hub to bring tourists and business. Obviously, that kind of scheming is not an option for Ottawa.

But the cities that sort of come to mind for building their own brand organically, while not having much in the way or remarkable attractions are Austin and Portland. There's no fancy museums or natural attractions or fantastic architectural heritage. They each have local culture that eventually got them labelled as "cool". Heck, even South by Southwest didn't really become prominent until the mid-90s and it was started as a regional festival. What makes these places cool is that they developed their own culture and vibe. Austin isn't constantly fretting about being overshadowed by Dallas and Houston. Portland isn't trying to become San Francisco. This is what Ottawa needs to work on. Defining its own identity. Hell, we can start by at least becoming more of a cultural centre for Eastern Ontario. Doesn't even feel like Ottawa is that plugged into the surrounding region a lot of times.

A lot of what you say here can also be said of Canada in general if you bump things up a couple of levels.

In that sense, Ottawa is probably and arguably perfect as a capital city that is reflective of the Canadian psyche!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

All cities steel and borrow ideas that can work... Toronto didn't invent the observation tower nor the international film festival and Montreal isn't the birthplace of F1 races and soccer specific stadiums, yet these activities and infrastructures thrive and no one cares if the idea has been copied. It's a matter of using things that align correctly with your city's ethos and strengths. Ottawa is a winter city with a massive ice rink in the middle of it (which is, ironically, pretty unique)... It would be madness not to take advantage of the situation. And water parks are a dime a dozen... They are as common as movie theatres and shopping malls.

Definitely true, but the great cities out there tend to take the stuff that all big cities or capital cities have, and supplement them with whatever unique things only they can bring to the table.

Just to take the example of the waterpark: if Ottawa (and Canada too, I suppose) had a more unique sense of self, they might have seized upon the heritage of the region to graft a lumberjack and log drive (draveurs) theme on it. It wouldn't have been that hard to do, really.

But of course, no one really thought about.

So instead you got a generic waterpark that isn't any different from its equivalents in Wisconsin or Queensland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upsZZ2s3xv8

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Depending on how one ranks food cities, it is. It's very nearly up there with LA and NY.

This is really debatable. You won't find Toronto on most conventional culinary lists for top 25. But it might make the odd top 50 list. And that's usually because quality, authenticity and heritage drive a lot of those rankings. Nobody is going to be able to compete with Naples for pizza or Valencia for paella. What Toronto has going for it is diversity. It was literally found to have the most diverse food scene in the the world. And people who debate this probably haven't travelled enough. I've traveled a fair bit across the country in my military career and and to quite a few places in the world. This is undoubtedly Toronto's strength. You can spin a globe, touch a spot and then google up a place in the GTA serving cuisine from that part of the world. The things you can eat for even $10 in Toronto are unparalleled in Canada. What Toronto kinda does poorly is providing decent venues for those places. Kensington and St. Lawrence Market are nice. But there's nothing like that in Scarborough or Mississauga. This is something that Toronto kinda needs to learn to do from Europe.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A lot of what you say here can also be said of Canada in general if you bump things up a couple of levels.

In that sense, Ottawa is probably and arguably perfect as a capital city that is reflective of the Canadian psyche!

Like I said earlier, part of the reason this city is so suburbanized is because we're such a suburban country and so much of who moves here are basically bland suburbanites.

Hopefully the next decade of strong urban growth and a real heft of downtown condo dwellers finally gets us a constituency for urbanism that is organic to Ottawa itself.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is really debatable. You won't find Toronto on most conventional culinary lists for top 25. But it might make the odd top 50 list. And that's usually because quality, authenticity and heritage drive a lot of those rankings. Nobody is going to be able to compete with Naples for pizza or Valencia for paella. What Toronto has going for it is diversity. It was literally found to have the most diverse food scene in the the world. And people who debate this probably haven't travelled enough. I've traveled a fair bit across the country in my military career and and to quite a few places in the world. This is undoubtedly Toronto's strength. You can spin a globe, touch a spot and then google up a place in the GTA serving cuisine from that part of the world. The things you can eat for even $10 in Toronto are unparalleled in Canada. What Toronto kinda does poorly is providing decent venues for those places. Kensington and St. Lawrence Market are nice. But there's nothing like that in Scarborough or Mississauga. This is something that Toronto kinda needs to learn to do from Europe.

I think there's a lot to be said about cities or countries with mono-food cultures, places that only do one type of food but do it really well, versus places that are able to provide literally any kind of food imaginable. As a local the diversity angle is the preferred outcome, IMO, because one can only eat the same thing for so long before it gets a bit boring, at least when it comes to going out for food.

As a tourist it's a bit hit or miss. Food diversity can be good but there's always the joke of Westerners getting MacDonald's in Japan or Indians always going to Indian restaurants abroad. Whatever people feel like doing, really. Food scenes should always lean more towards locals and residents than tourists, IMO. I think about the restaurants and chains around Niagara Falls and...it doesn't inspire confidence. I don't know.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What Toronto kinda does poorly is providing decent venues for those places. Kensington and St. Lawrence Market are nice. But there's nothing like that in Scarborough or Mississauga. This is something that Toronto kinda needs to learn to do from Europe.

This is true, which is why it's great that mayoral candidate Penalosa is proposing more food markets, more food stalls, more temporary food options in parks and public spaces, more street food. Toronto should be a world leader in that and the city has been held back by an archaic public admin more concerned with big businesses than pushing local cuisine to residents.

Since this is supposed to be about Ottawa, the one thing it does have going for it is its Arabic food scene, particularly its shawarma scene. It does that better than anywhere else in Canada. Ottawa can be and likely already is a national leader in Arabic and North African food options, along with the more Canadian influences that bleed from Quebec and francophone Canada. So that's one thing it does better than Toronto and Montreal, at least.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is really debatable. You won't find Toronto on most conventional culinary lists for top 25. But it might make the odd top 50 list. And that's usually because quality, authenticity and heritage drive a lot of those rankings. Nobody is going to be able to compete with Naples for pizza or Valencia for paella. What Toronto has going for it is diversity. It was literally found to have the most diverse food scene in the the world. And people who debate this probably haven't travelled enough. I've traveled a fair bit across the country in my military career and and to quite a few places in the world. This is undoubtedly Toronto's strength. You can spin a globe, touch a spot and then google up a place in the GTA serving cuisine from that part of the world. The things you can eat for even $10 in Toronto are unparalleled in Canada. What Toronto kinda does poorly is providing decent venues for those places. Kensington and St. Lawrence Market are nice. But there's nothing like that in Scarborough or Mississauga. This is something that Toronto kinda needs to learn to do from Europe.

I was just going to post something similar.

Toronto is one of the best places in the world to sample the widest variety of cuusines from around the planet, with authentic samplings to range from the most affordable to the highest quality.

Of course, the usual knock on Toronto is that it's all cuisines that originated elsewhere, and the pickings in terms of fineries that are uniquely Torontonian or Canadian are relatively slim for a city of its size and stature.

(And BTW, before anyone goes there Toronto wouldn't need to forsake the global cuisine offerings it has in order to have a more unique, original scene develop. It would just be another feather in its cap.)

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

My view of the city is realistic and in line with the flight services this city gets. If you were right, again, I ask, why are airlines more willing to add a second, third, or fourth flight to Toronto and Montreal instead of starting a single service to Ottawa?

I think that this goes back to the chicken and the egg comment from earlier in the thread. In Canada the air travel industry is dominated to a larger degree by one major player and one hub for international flights, which means that there isn't competition in the sector in a real sense. So I'd just say that it isn't clear to me at all that Ottawa gets the flights that it "deserves", rather we are unfortunately captive to a dominant player that largely ignores our market because it can without suffering many repercussions..

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think that this goes back to the chicken and the egg comment from earlier in the thread. In Canada the air travel industry is dominated to a larger degree by one major player and one hub for international flights, which means that there isn't competition in the sector in a real sense. So I'd just say that it isn't clear to me at all that Ottawa gets the flights that it "deserves", rather we are unfortunately captive to a dominant player that largely ignores our market because it can without suffering many repercussions..

Again, Phil235 hits the nail right on the head. Build it and they will come.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think that this goes back to the chicken and the egg comment from earlier in the thread. In Canada the air travel industry is dominated to a larger degree by one major player and one hub for international flights, which means that there isn't competition in the sector in a real sense. So I'd just say that it isn't clear to me at all that Ottawa gets the flights that it "deserves", rather we are unfortunately captive to a dominant player that largely ignores our market because it can without suffering many repercussions..

This is why I said in the other thread that people are resorting to conspiracy theories.

Airlines are businesses. If they can find a way to outflank a competitor, they will. One of most common tactics is direct flights that bypass a competitor's hubs. There's a whole world of airlines. Most of them aren't partnered with Air Canada. We literally have an Open Skies agreement with the EU. Any airline in Europe can fly to any city in Canada. So why do they fight for every slot they can get in Montreal and Toronto and not even consider launching a single service to Ottawa instead? Ask yourself why they'll take a third or fourth slot in those cities over a single one here.

You can say it's a chicken or egg problem. But airlines are in the business of making money, not in the business of building city brands. They'll only serve demand if it's there. And believe me they are masters at finding latent demand. It's a must in an industry where you're committing $100M assets on 5-10% margins.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is why I said in the other thread that people are resorting to conspiracy theories.

Airlines are businesses. If they can find a way to outflank a competitor, they will. One of most common tactics is direct flights that bypass a competitor's hubs. There's a whole world of airlines. Most of them aren't partnered with Air Canada. We literally have an Open Skies agreement with the EU. Any airline in Europe can fly to any city in Canada. So why do they fight for every slot they can get in Montreal and Toronto and not even consider launching a single service to Ottawa instead? Ask yourself why they'll take a third or fourth slot in those cities over a single one here.

But the question is how a European airline could realistically compete with an Air Canada that can feed its transatlantic service hub with domestic flights from all over eastern Canada. Load factors are much easier to manage out of hubs, which is why airlines prefer that model. I also don't think it's fair to say that they don't "even consider launching a single service to Ottawa". Pre-pandemic, by all accounts we were close to getting at least one service like that, so clearly it is being considered.

And on your point about third or fourth flights from an airport like Toronto, there are lots of reasons why that makes sense that aren't directly related to demand. For instance, it allows for far more efficient use of ground staff, more efficient maintenance, better capacity to absorb cancellations etc.

Also, it's not exactly subscribing to a conspiracy theory to note that the existence of one dominant industry player is not in the interest of smaller markets. I don't believe for a second that better competition in the industry wouldn't result in more direct destinations for Ottawa. That's the entire theory between Porter's expansion here.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

But the question is how a European airline could realistically compete with an Air Canada that can feed its transatlantic service hub with domestic flights from all over eastern Canada.

You can't be serious. There's three large global alliances. Air Canada and its Star Alliance partners are just one. British Airways/Aer Lingus with Oneworld and Air France/KLM with SkyTeam both go toe-to-toe with Air Canada at several AC hubs. AFKL does get some feed from WestJet, but certainly not enough to support 4-6 flights per day from Montreal and 2-3 per day from Toronto. And this is before we discuss the entire universe of non-aligned network and discount carriers that could fly to Ottawa. Icelandair comes to mind, for example.

Originally Posted by phil235

Load factors are much easier to manage out of hubs, which is why airlines prefer that model.

For their own hubs. This doesn't apply to destinations, which are spokes. Are you seriously suggesting that airlines all over the world only fly to each others hubs, including those of their competitors? Why exactly would Air France or British Airways want to go head to head with air Canada in Toronto and Montreal with all the advantages that AC has at those airports, if they don't have to?

Originally Posted by phil235

I also don't think it's fair to say that they don't "even consider launching a single service to Ottawa". Pre-pandemic, by all accounts we were close to getting at least one service like that, so clearly it is being considered.

If it's like pulling teeth to just get 1-2 international connections and it's first on the chopping block for any disruptive event, maybe it's just that the demand is not there?

Originally Posted by phil235

And on your point about third or fourth flights from an airport like Toronto, there are lots of reasons why that makes sense that aren't directly related to demand. For instance, it allows for far more efficient use of ground staff, more efficient maintenance, better capacity to absorb cancellations etc.

Which speaks to the poor yield (reasonable proxy for demand) to/from Ottawa. There isn't enough to justify the startup costs in Ottawa.

Should be noted that for foreign carriers, Canadian cities are not hubs. So their costs are largely marketing and some customer service at the airport. They aren't basing AMEs in Toronto or Montreal.

Originally Posted by phil235

Also, it's not exactly subscribing to a conspiracy theory to note that the existence of one dominant industry player is not in the interest of smaller markets.

It's economically ignorant and conspiratorial to claim the world's airlines are ignoring YOW because they are clueless. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the truth: the demand isn't there.

Originally Posted by phil235

I don't believe for a second that better competition in the industry wouldn't result in more direct destinations for Ottawa. That's the entire theory between Porter's expansion here.

So we went from a whole long discussion on how nobody can get past Air Canada's dominance. But now it's all hopeful that tiny Porter will base a hub in YOW? If you were right about AC's dominance, Porter will get crushed. So which is it?

For the record, I've been nothing but cheerful about Porter coming to Ottawa. And I think it shows that YYZ and YUL can be bypassed. But the business case is also not as rosy as folks like you imagine. Especially for the international carriers.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was just going to post something similar.

Toronto is one of the best places in the world to sample the widest variety of cuusines from around the planet, with authentic samplings to range from the most affordable to the highest quality.

Of course, the usual knock on Toronto is that it's all cuisines that originated elsewhere, and the pickings in terms of fineries that are uniquely Torontonian or Canadian are relatively slim for a city of its size and stature.

(And BTW, before anyone goes there Toronto wouldn't need to forsake the global cuisine offerings it has in order to have a more unique, original scene develop. It would just be another feather in its cap.)

Peameal bacon sandwich!!!

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not really. First of all, you're far more likely to visit the city you land in.

Next, if Ottawa had the same demand as Montreal, there'd be a much more balanced distribution of flights between the two cities. So, if all these museums and festivals are so great, where is the tourist demand to bring all those airlines to YOW? Instead, Air France may be willing to put on a third or even fourth daily flight to Montreal, instead of considering even one daily to Ottawa.

Or at the very least it would attract Condor type airlines catering to vacationers (Condor flies to Whitehorse, for example, or did before the pandemic.)

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Smaller cities can actually be tourist and cultural hubs. It's not uncommon elsewhere. However, the very thing needed to facilitate this, is usually derided on this very thread: good intercity rail.

Nobody is going to use Ottawa as the gateway to the region unless they can easily get on a train and go to Montreal or even all the way down to Niagara Falls.

We could at least attract some European discount carriers here, as an alternative to Montreal, if we had better connections to Montreal itself.

I very much agree with this and the only way this can start happening is if we finally start seeing the HFR being implemented for the Windsor to Quebec corridor.

Good intercity rail increases the tourism for the smaller cities even as 1 or 2 day trips (think Tokyo to Kyoto to Osaka to Hiroshima, it's all easy. Same within Europe even between countries in the EU).

We also need to up the ante on what is provided as destinations within the city, this means incorporating things that can make visiting Ottawa fun. I mean I'm Ottawa born and raised so I know the city has made vast improvements since 2010 (pre-2010 was way worse off than it is today) but the city needs to keep improving with that... that means getting all the Stages for LRT ready, HFR getting implemented, and making activities around the city worth it (ie, Lebreton shouldn't just be the Sens arena... it should have mixed attractions and things to do).

Indoor amusement park? Great. Waterfront boardwalks and something like Rec Room? Perfect. I like what Zibi is doing with the Chaudiere Falls, maybe more implementation of that as a tourist attraction would be nice. But those things need to get done before tourists can say "I definitely want to visit Ottawa".

[acottawa]

Realistically Ottawa should be promoting itself as a side destination from Montreal with ads in airline magazines, at YUL, paying influencers, etc.