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  #4241  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 3:09 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Urban Sky has provided math before. The Canadian covers a substantial part of its cost. In essence the land cruise patrons subsidize those riding the Canadian for just a short portion to access the nearest town/city. Take this away and the subsidy required would skyrocket.
It is an odd approach, we need to subsidize the Boomer Hotel by $50M per year so we don’t have to spend $8M (bit of a guestimate based on other remote services) on a remote service.
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  #4242  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 3:10 PM
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the UK system has many faults but it had massive increase in usage since privatization but has struggled post covid since covid hit. I think this article is a fair assessment.


https://www.ft.com/content/05fef011-f693-46a2-bfcd-fbdfffe4368d

John MacGregor never predicted that his gleaming vision of a privatised railway would end up bogged down in petty rows about the size of a peacock.

In 1994, MacGregor was the Conservative transport secretary when the UK’s railway network was sold off. An amateur magician, he did his best to conjure up a shimmering vision of plunging rail fares, increasing consumer choice and soaring investment.

Privatisation, he told the House of Commons, would harness “the management skills, the financial disciplines, the entrepreneurial spirit”. The old state-run British Rail — with its delays and stale cheese sandwiches — would be consigned to the history books.

But that vision of private sector efficiency and go-getting entrepreneurship did not quite work according to plan. Fast forward 27 years and MacGregor’s system is being torn up and rebuilt.


A government white paper published last week painted a picture of a railway system hobbled by the byzantine structures created since privatisation.

The system now has almost 400 full-time staff called “train delay attributers” whose job it is to argue with each other about assigning blame for a delay. Nearly half of delays are subject to this blame game, meaning they have to go through an extensive adjudication process involving a 199-page principles and rules document.

The most bizarre dispute of recent years involved a debate about who was to blame for a train hitting a peacock. If it was defined as a small bird, then the company driving the train was responsible: if it was categorised as a large bird, then the blame went to the operator of the tracks. The two sides ended up haggling over whether peacocks were bigger than geese. (The answer: a peacock is a “large bird”.)

The government admitted in the white paper: “Franchise agreements typically covered around 1,000 pages; the Key Train Requirements document runs to 185 pages . . . the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement comes in at 922 pages, so it is no wonder that passengers find ticket pricing so confusing.”


Conservative transport secretary Grant Shapps said of the rail overhaul: ‘We are not ideological about this; we just want to do what works for passengers’
The man wielding the sledgehammer to rail privatisation is not a socialist from the opposition Labour party but another Conservative transport secretary, Grant Shapps. “We are not ideological about this; we just want to do what works for passengers,” he said.

Under the new system, private companies will still operate trains. But Shapps will scrap company franchises and centralise the running of the railways under a new body with the not unfamiliar name of Great British Railways.

This did not reflect a misplaced love of the old British Rail, he insisted. Shapps believes there is a misplaced nostalgia for the nationalised era. “Let’s not forget, passenger numbers plummeted year on year on year. They closed down thousands of miles of track,” he told the FT in an interview. “Stations closed and communities got cut off and they served diabolically bad sandwiches. That was actually what happened.”


A GWR train heads out of Bristol. The new system will scrap company franchises and centralise the running of the railways from a body called Great British Railways © PA
Rather, his plan involves a halfway house between full nationalisation and full privatisation.

But for critics, Shapps’s new plan will rely on as much magical thinking as the blueprint MacGregor unveiled in the 1990s. The government wants to simultaneously improve services while finding savings of more than £1bn.

Transport expert Christian Wolmar sees “one or two good aspects” in reducing the complexity and making it easier to plan investment and timetables. But he is sceptical that Shapps’ rosy vision adds up.

“There is supposed to be more saving, more spending and it is magic money tree stuff, isn’t it?” he says. “The very clear thing that wasn’t mentioned was any hope that fares would even stay the same let alone go down, and nor is there a proper rationalisation of the fares system.”


Rising costs
Rail privatisation has not been an unmitigated disaster. Its supporters can point to a doubling in passenger numbers over the 26 years leading up to the pandemic, making the trains busier than any time since the first world war.

But travellers were often left confused by the system of rival train operators with different ticketing systems and often wild variations in ticket prices. The overall cost of travel has raced ahead of inflation, while taxpayer subsidies have also risen as the costs of running the railways have increased.

The idea was that privatisation would unleash efficiencies that would justify the returns that private companies demanded.

Instead, fares have risen 48 per cent in real terms since 1997, when the process of privatisation was complete, and are much higher than many European systems. Meanwhile, passengers on many commuter journeys into London have to stand at rush hour. All while the government has spent £150bn on the network since the mid-1990s, according to the Department for Transport.

Shapps said he wanted to end the “spider’s web” of confusion, mistrust and adversarial relationships between state bodies and private companies for the past few decades.

Why did the UK sell off the railways?
Under the fragmented railway system, a state body called Network Rail ran the infrastructure, while multiple train companies delivered the actual services. That system superseded earlier attempts to run the tracks through a listed company called Railtrack, which collapsed in 2001.

Critics of the franchise system argue that the agreements offered generous revenue protection for operating companies in the event of an economic downturn. It also let them walk away with only a minimal financial cost — a situation that has happened repeatedly on franchises including the Northern and East Coast lines.

And the idea that competition would drive up quality and drive down prices has been left wanting: many of the franchises were given through “direct awards” rather than by auction. Many would argue that sandwiches are still not exactly prizewinning.

Andrew Adonis, who was transport secretary under the previous Labour government, is sceptical of the Shapps reforms. But he admits that the franchise system was far from perfect. “There were pluses and minuses. You can’t get away from the fact that the last 20 years saw the biggest increase in passenger numbers since the Victorian period,” he says. “Having private operators didn’t prevent growth. How far that stimulated growth is entirely up for debate.”


Tori Weightman drives her LNER train towards Newcastle. The new system will see taxpayers — not operating companies — taking on the risk of rising and falling passenger numbers and revenue © Charlotte Graham/Cover Images
Malcolm Rifkind, who was Conservative transport secretary before MacGregor, had reservations about the way that infrastructure was carved out from the operating companies.

But he strongly believes that privatisation led directly to a huge increase in passenger numbers and higher quality services: “It’s not just a theory,” he says. “You can say it’s a coincidence that privatisation happened and then there were these improvements, but I don’t think it was a coincidence.”

‘We compete against the car’
Drawing gloomy comparisons with other countries’ railways is a national pastime, but offers few straightforward answers. The Swiss railway is renowned for its timekeeping and efficiency and is in public hands, while Japan’s feted bullet trains are fully privatised.

The UK has to cram carriages on to ageing infrastructure built by an assortment of Victorian entrepreneurs with no central vision, while the French used more state planning from the beginning.

When judged on safety, quality of service and intensity of use, the UK is in the second tier of European nations, with a railway that ranks below the likes of Switzerland and France, according to analysis by Boston Consulting Group in 2017. Dragged down by its high fares and poor punctuality, the UK was in the same category as Italy, Belgium and the Czech Republic, the study found.


Passengers at King’s Cross station in London. The new rail system is based on the London Overground, the suburban rail network run by Transport for London which contracts Arriva Rail to run the trains © Dan Kitwood/Getty
The white paper, informed by former British Airways boss Keith Williams’s review, amounts to a sweeping admission that the way the UK’s railways were privatised has failed.

It makes two key changes that ministers hope will fix the problem while preserving private sector expertise built up over nearly 30 years. The franchising model will be replaced by management contracts, in a formalisation of an emergency system brought in during the pandemic. And Great British Railways will fix what many regard as the foundational sin of privatisation, and run both track and trains together in one public body.

“The adoption of a concession model is not just sensible but there was no alternative other than a completely nationalised industry,” says Norman Baker, a Liberal Democrat transport minister in the 2010 coalition government and adviser to passenger group the Campaign for Better Transport.

In the new system train operators will be paid a fee to run services to a pre-determined timetable and fare system, bringing the UK closer to regional services in Germany and Sweden, which both scored well in the BCG analysis. The contracts will incentivise companies to hit targets on passenger satisfaction, reliability and cleanliness.

UK rail in numbers

48%
Real-terms rise in rail fares since 1997 (all data: DfT)

54%
Of UK rail journeys in 2019 were for commuting to work

£12bn
Cost of keeping the railways running during the pandemic

Crucially, however, the new system will see taxpayers — not operating companies — taking on the risk of rising and falling passenger numbers and revenue. Only on the longest inter-city routes will there be a greater element of risk for the operators.

Given that private companies witnessed an overnight collapse in passenger numbers when the coronavirus pandemic hit last year, they are unlikely to want to take revenue risk for the foreseeable future.

“A little like the insurance industry, once the risk has materialised then the possibility of it happening again materialises and becomes a reality,” says Naomi Horton, a partner at law firm Ashurst.

The new system is based on the London Overground, the suburban rail network run by Transport for London which contracts Arriva Rail to run the trains to a tightly specified set of directions.

David Brown, the managing director of Arriva Trains UK, says the system works well but warns that a balance needs to be struck between operators knowing exactly what is expected of them, while still having some freedom in terms of operational decisions such as staffing levels.


Mick Whelan, general secretary of drivers’ union Aslef, believes ‘many in the industry’ are anticipating a future with ‘far fewer trains’ given the uncertainty over whether passenger numbers will ever recover from their pandemic lows © Jack Taylor/Getty
“The model works because you are focusing on the right things, and then as private companies it encourages you to improve,” he says.

The hope is that the new contracts will provide the financial backbone to a joined-up system overseen by Great British Rail. “What you don’t want is train services competing with each other. They should be offering a service to customers which is the best use of track and train we have, and really compete against the motor car,” says Brown.

Commuter factor
In a sector not known for outbreaks of harmonious thinking, it is striking that nearly every part of the industry was united on the need for change. While the reforms have been broadly welcomed, industry insiders warn unity might fray as details including the new contracts are revealed.

Hanging over everything is the fact that no one knows how long it will take for passenger numbers to return to their pre-pandemic highs. If “working from home” is set to become part of everyday life, the answer could be: never.


Commuters on a C2C train head into Fenchurch Street station in London. When judged on safety, quality of service and intensity of use, the UK is in the second tier of European nations © Simon Dawson/Bloomberg
The white paper proclaims “a new era of public and private co-operation on the railways”, but some executives in the industry wonder whether a model that works in London, where most journeys are short, can easily translate into long-distance journeys linking cities hundreds of miles apart.

“Quite how the innovation of the private sector will be harnessed remains to be seen,” says Horton.

Having ploughed £12bn into keeping the railways running during the pandemic, ministers promise to save £1.5bn through “efficiencies” under the new system within five years.

They have also pledged to invest in infrastructure upgrades, including electrification, and insist that services will not be cut.

“If the ambitious aims of simplification, improved infrastructure and service reliability, together with cost savings, are all to be realised, GBR will need to implement significant change and show strong leadership,” says Andrew Brydon of law firm Pinsent Masons. “This will require large amounts of government funding to get it off the ground before it becomes clear whether long-term savings are achievable.”

The limited detail on how they will do this has led unions to warn of job cuts amid fears the entire network could end up smaller in response to declining passenger numbers.


A Greater Anglia railway worker waves a train off in Chelmsford. One former transport secretary suggests the reforms will ultimately ‘not make the blindest bit of difference’ © Chris Ratcliffe/Bloomberg
Mick Whelan, general secretary of drivers’ union Aslef, believes “many in the industry” are anticipating a future with “far fewer trains” given the uncertainty over whether passenger numbers will ever recover.

His fears were hardly allayed by one rail executive, who declined to be identified but who argues there are too many trains in some parts of the country. Politicians will need “nerve” to make cuts to these services, according to the executive.

Meanwhile, some passenger groups worry that the focus on changes could distract from the bid to encourage people back on to trains. Fares rose above inflation this year, and Shapps has warned they could rise further.

While flexible season tickets will offer modest discounts to tempt those commuting for just a couple of days a week, Baker says he detects “the heavy hand of the Treasury” in limiting any giveaways.

“I have tried to argue with them and say the way you cut your costs is to get more people on the railway . . . don’t price them off because that’s your income stream. The Treasury don’t seem to get this,” he says.

Adonis suggests that the reforms will ultimately “not make the blindest bit of difference” and are instead a minor rebranding of the system in Union Jack colours.

Recommended
The Big ReadUK infrastructure
Rail: frustration grows with Britain’s fragmented network

“I don’t think this changes the privatisation arrangements apart from they are replacing one control model for private operators with a different control model,” he says. “The thing that will make the biggest difference in the next five years will be subsidy levels. That is going to be the biggest factor, given that passenger levels are unlikely to come back to their previous levels for a long time.”

Wolmar says the shake-up brings with it significant political risk for Boris Johnson’s government.

“I somewhat suspect, a year or two down the road, we’ll have these GBR-branded trains but fares will still be high, there’s still going to be complexities about when you can travel and when you can get an advanced ticket, there will still be high top-end fares if you just jump on a train at 8am,” he says.

“People are going to get cross about this. Who are they going to blame?”
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  #4243  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 5:11 PM
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Obviously the financial times will always do its best to put a positive spin on anything that pertains to privatisation and market control. But in reality there's very little positive for even them to find. Ridership growth can be related to a wide variety of factors including population growth or distribution, the availability and cost of alternatives, and cultural trends. It's important to look at all potential factors, especially when analysing decades-long trends and the article does nothing to establish that privatization is actually responsible for the ridership growth other than quoting someone who who simply "believes it is".

Overall, even the article points out that while subsidies and public investment have grown, crowding has still increased while fares have risen massively. This definitely isn't a scheme others ought to be copying.
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  #4244  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 5:12 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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It is an odd approach, we need to subsidize the Boomer Hotel by $50M per year so we don’t have to spend $8M (bit of a guestimate based on other remote services) on a remote service.
Not quite. When he comes on some time, I'll let him speak to it. But from my understanding the land cruise is a substantial revenue generator. So if the Canadian was reduced to just some chair service, the required total subsidy would actually go up. It's important to keep in mind that a lot of costs on operating something like this are fixed and even if variable, don't scale linearly.

Personally, I'm not opposed to cuts, if the math shows that it's cheaper to eliminate the tourist service. But as I understand it, this is not currently the case.
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  #4245  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 5:19 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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the UK system has many faults but it had massive increase in usage since privatization but has struggled post covid since covid hit. I think this article is a fair assessment.
I wish people would stop using the UK as an example for Canada. We can never do what they did. They split off the physical rail network into a public sector utility (Network Rail) and then privatized train operations themselves. In essence, trains in the UK run like buses on public roads. Canada could never do this because our rail companies own their infrastructure.
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  #4246  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 5:45 PM
Urban_Sky Urban_Sky is offline
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There is only one other route besides the Corridor that has a solid business model behind it...........Calgary/Edmonton.
It doesn't. If you apply a basic gravity model, the ridership potential of Edmonton-Red Deer-Calgary is approximately one order of magnitude smaller than Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto:

Cross-post from: Twitter

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Then again why should VIA connect our 4th & 5th largest cities that are 280km apart when they can continue to connect the far more important cities of Prince Rupert & Prince George that are 700km apart?
VIA Rail serves places like Prince Rupert and Prince George, because the federal government published an "Order Varying Certain National Transportation Agency Orders Respecting Railway Companies" in October 1989 outlining the future VIA Rail network and this (and other routes) were explicitly mentioned in Table 1.

Conversely, Calgary-Edmonton is neither mentioned as "Service retained" nor "Service is discontinued" column, because the service was already terminated in 1985, under the watch of the federal Minister of Transport Don Mazankowski, who held his federal seat in Vegreville/AB (i.e. 100 km East of Edmonton) for a quarter-century.

Mazankowski unfortunately died two years ago, but Benoit Bouchard (the federal Minister of Transport responsible for the 1990 cuts) seems to be still alive, so these are the kind of people who could answer you these questions...


***


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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
It is an odd approach, we need to subsidize the Boomer Hotel by $50M per year so we don’t have to spend $8M (bit of a guestimate based on other remote services) on a remote service.
The fully-allocated costs you are looking at are meaningless, as they include VIA's overheads, which are largely insensitive to any changes in VIA's network. If you compare the direct revenues of the Canadian with its direct costs, you will see that its direct operating loss was $6.5 million in 2018, but that it actually generated a - very modest, but still - direct operating profit of $0.8 million in 2017:

Cross-post from: Urban Toronto

If you were to cancel the Canadian (even for part of the year, presumably the winter season), you would still need to operate a train service between Capreol and Winnipeg, in order to fulfill VIA's service requirements for its "Remote Services" and to allow for the transfer of equipment between its maintenance centers in Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal, as well as its Jasper-Prince Rupert and Sudbury-White River services.

As I've outlined on Urban Toronto, such a "remote service" was offered between Capreol and Winnipeg between 1981 and 1990, when all transcontinental trains operated via Thunder Bay, and caused a direct operating loss of $6.7 million in 1988, which converts to $12.6 million in 2018 prices (i.e. twice the Canadians direct operating loss of $6.7 million that year):

Source: Office of the Prime Minister (1989)


***


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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Obviously the financial times will always do its best to put a positive spin on anything that pertains to privatisation and market control. But in reality there's very little positive for even them to find. Ridership growth can be related to a wide variety of factors including population growth or distribution, the availability and cost of alternatives, and cultural trends. It's important to look at all potential factors, especially when analysing decades-long trends and the article does nothing to establish that privatization is actually responsible for the ridership growth other than quoting someone who who simply "believes it is".

Overall, even the article points out that while subsidies and public investment have grown, crowding has still increased while fares have risen massively. This definitely isn't a scheme others ought to be copying.
Yet, the United Kingdom is the European country where per-capita (i.e. already adjusted for population growth) rail ridership has grown the most since 1980 (i.e. the year after Thatcher became Prime Minister of the UK) and has now exceeded ridership levels of pro-rail countries like Denmark, Chechia, Belgium or Italy:

Cross-post from: Twitter

Last edited by Urban_Sky; Jul 10, 2022 at 5:56 PM.
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  #4247  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 5:54 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Can privatization be facilitated without a public infrastructure entity? The UK had to nationalize Railtrack after major safety events and complaints from operators. This is what led to the creation of Network Rail as a public not-for-profit rail infrastructure company.

Asking the private sector to build both the service and the infrastructure seems a rather tall order. The only places that do seem to have done this successfully (like Brightline in Florida) seem to rely substantially on real estate, which is impossible for any Canadian corridors that one might consider for rail service.
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  #4248  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 6:17 PM
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Yet, the United Kingdom is the European country where per-capita (i.e. already adjusted for population growth) rail ridership has grown the most since 1980 (i.e. the year after Thatcher became Prime Minister of the UK) and has now exceeded ridership levels of pro-rail countries like Denmark, Chechia, Belgium or Italy: [graphic]
Well sure, no one's saying it isn't interesting to study trends in other places. Just the opposite in fact. It's interesting to fully study such trends rather than jumping to assumption-based conclusions. For one thing, it's important to draw a distinction between commuter services more comparable to GO or Exo which make up over half of both Canada and the UK's ridership, and it's also important to consider the level of overall investment, services offered, etc.

If you look at GO's rail ridership between 1995 and 2019 (which seems to be the earliest the APTA archives extend) the ridership grew by a massive 165% which, when you factor in population growth, is going to be quite similar to the UK growth per capita. And considering GO is a public agency obviously we'd need more info to determine what specific changes caused each of their growth.
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  #4249  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 6:21 PM
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I wish people would stop using the UK as an example for Canada. We can never do what they did. They split off the physical rail network into a public sector utility (Network Rail) and then privatized train operations themselves. In essence, trains in the UK run like buses on public roads. Canada could never do this because our rail companies own their infrastructure.
Their set up almost sounds less private than ours which has almost all of the actual track VIA uses being privately owned. Considering how much more successful GO has been with its ever increasing track ownership, it would be interesting to see how much VIA would benefit from having it's own track whether the actual operations were public or private.
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  #4250  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 6:50 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Their set up almost sounds less private than ours which has almost all of the actual track VIA uses being privately owned. Considering how much more successful GO has been with its ever increasing track ownership, it would be interesting to see how much VIA would benefit from having it's own track whether the actual operations were public or private.
Their setup is definitely less privatized than ours. To have what the UK has, we'd have to take CN and CP rail infrastructure and put it under public ownership. After which the new entity gets to prioritize passenger rail.

Our rail network is the equivalent of trucking companies owning their own roads. You can't then demand that buses be given the same priority on those roads, as trucks, without compensation. What enables equal priority on most of our roads is public ownership.
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  #4251  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2022, 8:28 PM
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How many cars do you take off the road with this multi billion dollar electrification project? The Dayliner took 5 hours and had a negligible market share. Driving is 90 minutes, the bus is 2 hours.
First,just because the line is reactivated so that Via can run, does not mean it has to be the only thing to run on it. The Dayliner could come back on any timing that makes sense to serve the entire Island effectively. The local governments could then build what is needed for a commuter rail service. I have been told by locals that study this kind of stuff, that if the service was set properly, they would need several Budd cars to match the demand. Looking at newer tech, the UPX trains, likely about 4 of them each way.

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The program was temporarily expanded in 2021 because of COVID; airports like North Bay are not normally eligible.
So, then you were wrong that airports get no money from the federal government.

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As far as I know Vancouver Island is still and island.
Yes, and?

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The existence of the method doesn't necessarily mean that it's automatically economically justifiable or a priority. The majority of emissions, after all, are not in far flung areas....
What someone in a far flung area tends to feel is that they are virtually ignored by governments. By throwing them a bone, it shows them that their taxes that pay for the big city investments are not in vain. Imagine if all taxes collected must be spent in the same locale it was collected from>?

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And it would be nice for me to have the latest maglev Chuo Shinkansen style HSR in Ottawa, so I could visit my brother in Montreal and my parents in Toronto with ease. However, I know that this isn't really economically sensible, even if there was a willingness to spend an insane amount of money.
Ah, yes, the strawman argument. Sounds like something a senile unintelligent person would say. Why not talk about real things that are really on the table? Likely because there is not good argument you can have for it.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Would that be nice for my cousin in Nanaimo? Absolutely. Is it a wise public investment? Probably not. We're a country that doesn't have frequent electrified service between any of our major centres, including in two corridors which are some of the busiest air and road corridors in the world. And you're worried about improving the weekend trips between the 16th and 35th largest CMAs? When your roof leaks, do you give equal priority to buffing the baseboards of the powder room?
You know electric trains are actually running all over Canada? They just carry their method of generating that electricity on board. There is a reason most engines these days are called Diesel Electric.

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If Vancouver Island wants a commuter rail service that may well be a good idea, but it should be run/funded by local authorities, not Via.
Agreed. And at no time am I suggesting that Via provides that service. I am saying Via could own the tracks that the local commuter rail uses.

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Originally Posted by casper View Post
The Tilbury terminal on the mainland and the railyard in downtown Nanaimo can be connected by rail ferry/barges. Moving railcars on/off the island use to be more common decades ago.

https://www.seaspan.com/seaspan-ferries/terminals-fleet/
I am guessing that as the railway fell into disrepair trucks started to bite the bullet and take the ferry as a commercial vehicle, not as a freight load.

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VIA is highly unsuccessful by nearly every metric. It's slow, highly unreliable, expensive, and for 40% of the country's population, completely useless. VIA is everything you never wanted in a rail provider and then some.
VIA was not an idea acted upon but rather a plan written on the back of a napkin in a furry due to CP wanting {aka demanding} they get out of the passenger rail business. It was left with old rolling stock and no railways to run their trains on so it was doomed from the start. When you add in all the political interference over the year it simply made an impossible situation worse.

Ottawa should ditch VIA entirely and get out of the rail business acting as nothing more than an overseer to make sure safety and quality are maintained while prices are kept in check, just like telecommunications or a lot of arms-length government controlled agencies.
What it sounds like you are saying is because the government of the time screwed up, that we should abandon it? Why not actually make it relevant. Make it more useful than just land yachts?Imagine if the Corridor service was treated how the rest was?Imagine how quickly it would become irrelevant. The 1990s saw that huge cuts were needed or huge tax increases were needed. So, the government slashed as much as it could and kept slashing. Now, with the challenges with transportation via other methods, it is time to reinvest in Via. Bring back service to places where the line was shut down due to disrepair. Bring back service to places that should have service. Improve service such that it is realistic for most people to use it. A train passing every day on a route that currently has 3x a week does make some sense.

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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
It's amazing how the fundamental VIA model has not changed in nearly a half century of existence, despite the fact that most economically advanced countries (and even some not-so-advanced ones) have totally re-imagined passenger rail over that timespan. It's still basically operating an emaciated version of what CN and CP were doing in 1976.
And that is the problem that really needs to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
Via desperately needs to be privatized its a national embarrassment and will never evolve to be a reliable transport provider to diversivify us off air transport.
You are an embarrassment to Canadians. All you want is everything privatized.

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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
There is only one other route besides the Corridor that has a solid business model behind it...........Calgary/Edmonton. Then again why should VIA connect our 4th & 5th largest cities that are 280km apart when they can continue to connect the far more important cities of Prince Rupert & Prince George that are 700km apart?

Ottawa should just shut VIA down and finally acknowledge that it's a railway model that simply can't work. Ottawa should GIVE VIA's limited trackage away as well as it's rolling to stock to a private company in exchange for them building the entire Corridor HSR by twinning tracks, over/underpasses, electrification etc. from Windsor to Quebec City. They could use some of those funds to also open a Cal/Edm HSR route. Ottawa would be able to set maximum fares and frequency minimums.

Such a system would give large swaths of Canadians a truly fast and reliable railway, release Ottawa from it's financial obligations, and take the politics out of our rail system so it goes back to a passenger driven transportation option and not a politically driven one.
No private company would want any of it.
First, their rolling stock is not in good condition.
Second, having to negotiate with CN/CP is a nonstarter.

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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Yeah the UK finally had to fix the huge mistake of privatisation after it failed miserably. Definitely not something privatization proponents should be pointing to as a proof of concept. Probably better to just avoid the topic.
I wish more people would learn from other's mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Urban Sky has provided math before. The Canadian covers a substantial part of its cost. In essence the land cruise patrons subsidize those riding the Canadian for just a short portion to access the nearest town/city. Take this away and the subsidy required would skyrocket.
He also argued when you show him the math showed that the southern route was more profitable and yet it was cut. Which, ironically how many people, like you seem to act.
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Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 2:45 AM
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Another thought I have.

OCEAN departs at 1900

CANADIAN departs at 2200 and at 0930

There are Corridor trains between Toronto and Montreal that arrive in Montreal in time to get to the OCEAN. You cannot get to the 0930 CANADIAN. Would moving that later or adding a trip early enough to make it work?
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  #4253  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 3:22 AM
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This again? Oh boy.
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
First, just because the line is reactivated so that Via can run, does not mean it has to be the only thing to run on it. The Dayliner could come back on any timing that makes sense to serve the entire Island effectively. The local governments could then build what is needed for a commuter rail service. I have been told by locals that study this kind of stuff, that if the service was set properly, they would need several Budd cars to match the demand. Looking at newer tech, the UPX trains, likely about 4 of them each way.
What is the total return on investment?

Even if you ran trains at 5 minute frequencies, what kind of benefits would you get, compared to, say, the Corridor west of Toronto? It doesn't matter how many trains there are, if the demand is not there.

Who are these locals who study "this kind of stuff"?

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
What someone in a far flung area tends to feel is that they are virtually ignored by governments. By throwing them a bone, it shows them that their taxes that pay for the big city investments are not in vain. Imagine if all taxes collected must be spent in the same locale it was collected from>?
I've argued with people who felt that Toronto was ignored by the provincial government, and should form its own province. And Ottawa. And London. And Northern Ontario. And so on. Everywhere is starving for transit investment, and we have limited dollars, so we have to use those dollars wisely.

I don't have numbers, but I'm fairly sure that running any kind of service (transport, hospital, social services, etc) in the North is, per capita, far more expensive than in Southern Ontario. The population is thinly spread.

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
You know electric trains are actually running all over Canada? They just carry their method of generating that electricity on board. There is a reason most engines these days are called Diesel Electric.
I don't get what you're trying to argue here ... ? That trains exist?

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Agreed. And at no time am I suggesting that Via provides that service. I am saying Via could own the tracks that the local commuter rail uses.
It's still a poor investment compared with other investments that VIA needs.

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
What it sounds like you are saying is because the government of the time screwed up, that we should abandon it? Why not actually make it relevant. Make it more useful than just land yachts? Imagine if the Corridor service was treated how the rest was? Imagine how quickly it would become irrelevant. The 1990s saw that huge cuts were needed or huge tax increases were needed. So, the government slashed as much as it could and kept slashing. Now, with the challenges with transportation via other methods, it is time to reinvest in Via. Bring back service to places where the line was shut down due to disrepair. Bring back service to places that should have service. Improve service such that it is realistic for most people to use it. A train passing every day on a route that currently has 3x a week does make some sense.
Land yachts pay the bills, at least for The Canadian.

The Corridor was not treated how the other services are, because it's the most profitable, and because the most people use it. Why is building deep-bore subways into York and Scarborough stupid? Because the investment on that project is not commensurate with the needs of the area and the ridership of the route.

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
No private company would want any of it.
First, their rolling stock is not in good condition.
Second, having to negotiate with CN/CP is a nonstarter.
That I agree with. Apart from Amtrak, no other service provider primarily uses privately-owned freight trackage, at least, off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
He also argued when you show him the math showed that the southern route was more profitable and yet it was cut. Which, ironically how many people, like you seem to act.
It's not The Canadian VS. The Super Continental, it's The Canadian VS. The Super Continental + Capreol-Winnipeg + transfer of equipment to The Skeena.
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  #4254  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 3:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DirectionNorth View Post
This again? Oh boy.
New to the forum?
New account?
New account of someone else.....?

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Originally Posted by DirectionNorth View Post
That I agree with. Apart from Amtrak, no other service provider primarily uses privately-owned freight trackage, at least, off the top of my head.
Are you suggesting we take all tracks in Canada and nationalize them? If only Amtrak and Via are on private owned tracks, and they are struggling, it sounds like that is the solution you are speaking of.

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Originally Posted by DirectionNorth View Post
It's not The Canadian VS. The Super Continental, it's The Canadian VS. The Super Continental + Capreol-Winnipeg + transfer of equipment to The Skeena.
They could have extended the Skeena to Calgary.
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  #4255  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
New to the forum?
New account?
New account of someone else.....?

Are you suggesting we take all tracks in Canada and nationalize them? If only Amtrak and Via are on private owned tracks, and they are struggling, it sounds like that is the solution you are speaking of.

They could have extended the Skeena to Calgary.
I'm sure we've done this both here and on UT. Don't bother, my brain was fried last night.

I'm not suggesting that we privatize track, I'm agreeing with you in that VIA privatization would be difficult, compared to other countries.
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Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Another thought I have.

OCEAN departs at 1900

CANADIAN departs at 2200 and at 0930

There are Corridor trains between Toronto and Montreal that arrive in Montreal in time to get to the OCEAN. You cannot get to the 0930 CANADIAN. Would moving that later or adding a trip early enough to make it work?
I have mentioned on this forum before that I think the western terminus for the Ocean should be Toronto and not Montreal.

This would greatly simplify transcontinental transfers, both for tourists and for railway enthusiasts. It might also increase the popularity of the Ocean as well.
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Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I have mentioned on this forum before that I think the western terminus for the Ocean should be Toronto and not Montreal.

This would greatly simplify transcontinental transfers, both for tourists and for railway enthusiasts. It might also increase the popularity of the Ocean as well.
Never mind that it only recovers less than half of its direct costs and looses approximately $27 per train-km, but by that logic, but since extending a train apparently decreases its deficit, why not extend it all the way to Chicago or even Los Angeles?
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  #4258  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 1:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
Never mind that it only recovers less than half of its direct costs, but by that logic, we would need to extend it to Chicago or even Los Angeles - or not?
Simplified transfers and access to a larger pool of potential riders should be beneficial to this service, should it not???
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  #4259  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I have mentioned on this forum before that I think the western terminus for the Ocean should be Toronto and not Montreal.

This would greatly simplify transcontinental transfers, both for tourists and for railway enthusiasts. It might also increase the popularity of the Ocean as well.
In a situation where VIA had its own track from Montreal to Toronto, there might be a case to terminate in Toronto. But in a situation where they are relying on slots on the freight network, this is a poor allocation of a precious slot. Not to mention that cascading delays elsewhere would probably see the Ocean tank the Corridor's On Time Performance further, as it tries to fit in after invariably missing its slot.

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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
Simplified transfers and access to a larger pool of potential riders should be beneficial to this service, should it not???
In theory. In reality, how many people are actually choosing to spend over 24 hrs on a train from Toronto to Halifax? Or just generally half a day from Toronto to the Maritimes? And of these people, who is it, that would completely reconsider if they have to transfer in Montreal? This is getting into the same logic as transit developments that insist on convoluted routings or extensions to avoid transfers. At some point, you need to break the trip to ensure that there's sufficient logistics capabilities, schedule buffers, etc. Montreal is a reasonably logical terminus for the Ocean and is well fed by Corridor services for the rare person that insist on using a train to get from deep in Ontario to the Maritimes.
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  #4260  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2022, 1:57 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Another thought I have.

OCEAN departs at 1900

CANADIAN departs at 2200 and at 0930

There are Corridor trains between Toronto and Montreal that arrive in Montreal in time to get to the OCEAN. You cannot get to the 0930 CANADIAN. Would moving that later or adding a trip early enough to make it work?
1) How many people are trying to connect to the Canadian? Who are these folks who have spent say 22 hrs on a train from Halifax to Montreal, and another 5-6 hrs on a train from Montreal to Toronto, who then want to continue on? Why would they not fly, which would definitely be cheaper, faster and less environmentally damaging at that point? Even if you're originating in Quebec, unless your destination is some in between stop (which is probably a single digit pax count on any train), there's no point taking a train to Toronto to catch the Canadian. It's faster and probably cheaper to fly to nearest city and then drive to your destination.

2) These changes aren't free. And are highly problematic for an operator reliant on networks owned by several other operators. How would changes to the departure time impact the rest of the schedule? And how would those changes in turn impact demand?
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