VIA Rail

[casper]

Originally Posted by acottawa

As far as I know Vancouver Island is still and island.

The Tilbury terminal on the mainland and the railyard in downtown Nanaimo can be connected by rail ferry/barges. Moving railcars on/off the island use to be more common decades ago.

https://www.seaspan.com/seaspan-ferries/terminals-fleet/

[J81]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If the build the train line, that might change the math. Rolling stock, fuel and station maintenance is still expensive. Rebuilding it just for passenger service would be pointless though. $150M would buy a lot of buses.

I dont disagree.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's part of the general myopia of railfans. They are railfans not public transport advocates. As such, they have a hammer (trains) and every problem a nail (transport need). But if you care about good public services, you will want money spent effectively and efficiently. And sometimes this will mean bus service instead of rail.

Save the rail advocacy for the populated corridors (Q-W, C-E-L, SJ-M-H) where rail services can be offered at high frequencies, with lots of capacity, enough to genuinely be an alternative to driving and flying.

Completely agree in all aspects.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Completely agree in all aspects.

I agree with the routes listed but believe something needs to be done about some other routes. The problem the government ignores all funding or capital investments on all routes. It’s only plan is to have all passenger rail disappear.

[ssiguy]

VIA is highly unsuccessful by nearly every metric. It's slow, highly unreliable, expensive, and for 40% of the country's population, completely useless. VIA is everything you never wanted in a rail provider and then some.
VIA was not an idea acted upon but rather a plan written on the back of a napkin in a furry due to CP wanting {aka demanding} they get out of the passenger rail business. It was left with old rolling stock and no railways to run their trains on so it was doomed from the start. When you add in all the political interference over the year it simply made an impossible situation worse.

Ottawa should ditch VIA entirely and get out of the rail business acting as nothing more than an overseer to make sure safety and quality are maintained while prices are kept in check, just like telecommunications or a lot of arms-length government controlled agencies.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

VIA is highly unsuccessful by nearly every metric. It's slow, highly unreliable, expensive, and for 40% of the country's population, completely useless. VIA is everything you never wanted in a rail provider and then some.
VIA was not an idea acted upon but rather a plan written on the back of a napkin in a furry due to CP wanting {aka demanding} they get out of the passenger rail business. It was left with old rolling stock and no railways to run their trains on so it was doomed from the start. When you add in all the political interference over the year it simply made an impossible situation worse.

Ottawa should ditch VIA entirely and get out of the rail business acting as nothing more than an overseer to make sure safety and quality are maintained while prices are kept in check, just like telecommunications or a lot of arms-length government controlled agencies.

It's amazing how the fundamental VIA model has not changed in nearly a half century of existence, despite the fact that most economically advanced countries (and even some not-so-advanced ones) have totally re-imagined passenger rail over that timespan. It's still basically operating an emaciated version of what CN and CP were doing in 1976.

[thurmas]

Via desperately needs to be privatized its a national embarrassment and will never evolve to be a reliable transport provider to diversivify us off air transport.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Via desperately needs to be privatized its a national embarrassment and will never evolve to be a reliable transport provider to diversivify us off air transport.

Other then the Corridor, there is zero business case for rail elsewhere. Except for some YOLO land cruise operators like RMR, have you ever seen any private passenger rail startup in Canada?

Incidentally, the government's recent pitch for HFR hints heavily at privatizing the Corridor. If that happens, we might have to start the countdown on the rest of VIA.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Other then the Corridor, there is zero business case for rail elsewhere. Except for some YOLO land cruise operators like RMR, have you ever seen any private passenger rail startup in Canada?

Incidentally, the government's recent pitch for HFR hints heavily at privatizing the Corridor. If that happens, we might have to start the countdown on the rest of VIA.

I don't think people in the west would really care as we only have 1 line from winnipeg to edmonton, zero service at all for calgary and regina.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I don't think people in the west would really care as we only have 1 line from winnipeg to edmonton, zero service at all for calgary and regina.

People in the cities might not. But the remote communities without road access certainly might.

[J81]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

VIA is highly unsuccessful by nearly every metric. It's slow, highly unreliable, expensive, and for 40% of the country's population, completely useless. VIA is everything you never wanted in a rail provider and then some.
VIA was not an idea acted upon but rather a plan written on the back of a napkin in a furry due to CP wanting {aka demanding} they get out of the passenger rail business. It was left with old rolling stock and no railways to run their trains on so it was doomed from the start. When you add in all the political interference over the year it simply made an impossible situation worse.

Ottawa should ditch VIA entirely and get out of the rail business acting as nothing more than an overseer to make sure safety and quality are maintained while prices are kept in check, just like telecommunications or a lot of arms-length government controlled agencies.

Have you ever used it? It seems to me like the majority of the people on this thread calling for Vias demise have no real experience with the service whatsoever. You say its slow but based on what? You say its unreliable but based on what? Expensive but again based on what? Yes there are issues with some sections of the transcons but the corridor service is good. Relatively little hassle and pretty well guaranteed to always make your destination with your luggage no matter what the weather. You can bitch and moan about a 20-30 minute delay all you want but i dont remember the last time i flew that i didnt experience at least that much of a delay and usually longer. Yes being at the mercy of CN sucks but thats not VIAs fault its the federal governments And now you have Metrolinx which has actually made things exponentially worse on the portions of track they now own. Its not VIAs fault that MX makes a VIA train follow a GO train that makes all stops up track 3 from Union station to Durham junction when they couldve zipped up track 2 and been by the GO train in no time with no stops. Instead VIA is now 30 minutes late into Oshawa because of MX.

Anyway most of you havent got a clue what youre talking about and just like to shit on VIA. Sure lets shut it down and start over. What you will end up with will not be any better as long as the same players hold all the same cards.

[ssiguy]

There is only one other route besides the Corridor that has a solid business model behind it...........Calgary/Edmonton. Then again why should VIA connect our 4th & 5th largest cities that are 280km apart when they can continue to connect the far more important cities of Prince Rupert & Prince George that are 700km apart?

Ottawa should just shut VIA down and finally acknowledge that it's a railway model that simply can't work. Ottawa should GIVE VIA's limited trackage away as well as it's rolling to stock to a private company in exchange for them building the entire Corridor HSR by twinning tracks, over/underpasses, electrification etc. from Windsor to Quebec City. They could use some of those funds to also open a Cal/Edm HSR route. Ottawa would be able to set maximum fares and frequency minimums.

Such a system would give large swaths of Canadians a truly fast and reliable railway, release Ottawa from it's financial obligations, and take the politics out of our rail system so it goes back to a passenger driven transportation option and not a politically driven one.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

People in the cities might not. But the remote communities without road access certainly might.

That’s a good point, but I think there is a question whether a giant rolling hotel is the best way to serve these locations.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

There is only one other route besides the Corridor that has a solid business model behind it...........Calgary/Edmonton. Then again why should VIA connect our 4th & 5th largest cities that are 280km apart when they can continue to connect the far more important cities of Prince Rupert & Prince George that are 700km apart?

Ottawa should just shut VIA down and finally acknowledge that it's a railway model that simply can't work. Ottawa should GIVE VIA's limited trackage away as well as it's rolling to stock to a private company in exchange for them building the entire Corridor HSR by twinning tracks, over/underpasses, electrification etc. from Windsor to Quebec City. They could use some of those funds to also open a Cal/Edm HSR route. Ottawa would be able to set maximum fares and frequency minimums.

No private company would ever agree to those terms, or to operate any passenger railway in Canada without significant subsidies.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That’s a good point, but I think there is a question whether a giant rolling hotel is the best way to serve these locations.

Urban Sky has provided math before. The Canadian covers a substantial part of its cost. In essence the land cruise patrons subsidize those riding the Canadian for just a short portion to access the nearest town/city. Take this away and the subsidy required would skyrocket.

[MonctonRad]

A railway "system" that covers only the Quebec City to Windsor corridor, and maybe Edmonton-Calgary is not a system at all.

You require interconnectivity.

Half of Canadians do not live in the corridor. In a "national" rail system, they deserve service too.

There are millions of Canadians who want an enhanced nationwide VIA system, not a truncated and emasculated VIA. These include railway enthusiasts, retirees with time to spare, tourists, people with crippling aerophobia, and environmentalists aware of GHG emissions related to air travel.

Sometimes people just like to have some variety in their travel choices.

The strength of the air industry is in transcontinental travel. The strength of the bus industry is in short haul intercity travel (no more than a few hundred km). There is a niche in the middle that rail travel can occupy.

I am in favour of HSR and HFR within the corridor, and in reestablishing an intercity service between Calgary and Edmonton. This makes perfect sense to me.

I am also in favour of maintaining (and expanding) the current long distance VIA services, including the Ocean and the Canadian. These services should be daily, and should have increased priority on their lines.

Finally, I am in favour of creating a regional VIA service in the Maritimes from Saint John to Halifax via Moncton. There should also be a rail service from Regina to Saskatoon.

We are up against the wall in terms of GHG emissions. The air industry is over utilized in this country. The most logical way to truncate the air industry is to invest heavily in the passenger rail system, including intensive electrification. This will be very expensive, and a lot of people will view this necessary investment with horror, but it is indeed necessary, and most people with a thought horizon of more than a few years realize this.

This is nation building at it's best...........

[thurmas]

The UK privatized their service in the 90s and it works. Western Canada frankly is ill suited for rail as the major cities are too far apart and not large enough to support the cost of an effective HSR rail service. Privatize VIA subsidize the line from Winnipeg to Churchill as the people need it in the north to come to Winnipeg for medical procedures. A privatized system would be able to do a lot more to service Ontario and Quebec and maybe Atlantic Canada further down the line.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by thurmas

The UK privatized their service in the 90s and it works. Western Canada frankly is ill suited for rail as the major cities are too far apart and not large enough to support the cost of an effective HSR rail service. Privatize VIA subsidize the line from Winnipeg to Churchill as the people need it in the north to come to Winnipeg for medical procedures. A privatized system would be able to do a lot more to service Ontario and Quebec and maybe Atlantic Canada further down the line.

The UK recently renationalized much of their train services.

[casper]

Originally Posted by thurmas

The UK privatized their service in the 90s and it works. Western Canada frankly is ill suited for rail as the major cities are too far apart and not large enough to support the cost of an effective HSR rail service. Privatize VIA subsidize the line from Winnipeg to Churchill as the people need it in the north to come to Winnipeg for medical procedures. A privatized system would be able to do a lot more to service Ontario and Quebec and maybe Atlantic Canada further down the line.

Does not the UK split the operator of the track from the operator of the train into separate companies?

Unlike the US where passenger rail has priority, we are in Canada were freight has priority.

[Nouvellecosse]

Yeah the UK finally had to fix the huge mistake of privatisation after it failed miserably. Definitely not something privatization proponents should be pointing to as a proof of concept. Probably better to just avoid the topic.

• Video Link