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  #6241  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 7:51 PM
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roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Well, Teron is the status quo. There will be a cost to building a BRT on March between the 417 and Teron.
But there is no BRT on Teron so there would also be a cost to build BRT on Teron between the 417 and March.
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  #6242  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 8:37 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
But there is no BRT on Teron so there would also be a cost to build BRT on Teron between the 417 and March.
OK, sure. I think minor changes to bus stops and a couple of intersection modifications would be far cheaper. I'm explicitly not calling for a full BRT on Teron Rd.
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  #6243  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
OK, sure. I think minor changes to bus stops and a couple of intersection modifications would be far cheaper. I'm explicitly not calling for a full BRT on Teron Rd.
Not something like Chapman Mills Dr (without the density)?


Chapman Mills Dr. from Google Street View
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  #6244  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2022, 12:18 AM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Good Day.

Recalling an older discussion in this thread (and others), for those who might be interested and may have missed it.....

a CTV article on Nylene, using the freight line out of Walkley Yard west to Arnprior, crossing the T-Line, still going strong (but always interested in bringing other freight users on board).
They take a weekly delivery of 5 tank cars of caprolactam from the U.S. via CN, for producing nylon products.

The railway to Arnprior, Ont. is a locomotive for economic growth
Tyler Fleming - CTV - 09 June 2022.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/the-railway-to-arnprior-ont-is-a-locomotive-for-economic-growth-1.5940676

EnJoy!
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  #6245  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2022, 8:34 AM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
Good Day.

Recalling an older discussion in this thread (and others), for those who might be interested and may have missed it.....

a CTV article on Nylene, using the freight line out of Walkley Yard west to Arnprior, crossing the T-Line, still going strong (but always interested in bringing other freight users on board).
They take a weekly delivery of 5 tank cars of caprolactam from the U.S. via CN, for producing nylon products.

The railway to Arnprior, Ont. is a locomotive for economic growth
Tyler Fleming - CTV - 09 June 2022.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/the-railway-to-arnprior-ont-is-a-locomotive-for-economic-growth-1.5940676

EnJoy!
The city should just get on with buying up the part of that line in the center of the city, and build a Trillium style line from South Keys Station west to at least the Bells Corners area - maybe even going east of Greenboro some day. Even with an LRT service on that line they could still run freight trains overnight outside transit operating hours.

(I thought there was already a thread for this... I can't find it right now so I'm going to brain dump my thoughts here.)

If you start the new line at South Keys you get direct transfers to the line directly from the Airport spur, Trillium Line and SE Transitway.

It wouldn't be the ideal route across the city - but given that it's an existing corridor and mostly grade separated... it would be much cheaper to build than the Trillium extension.

Wikipedia tells me that the Trillium line's pilot cost was $21M. Assuming it's in year 2000 dollars - that's $33M in 2022 dollars. That's for 8.5KM, 6 stations and three trains, signaling, maintenance yard etc.

The 2011 upgrades cost another +$60M - (+$75M in today's dollars) - so about $108M for everything in 2022 dollars or $12.7M / KM for the pre-stage 2 Trillium line.

Let's say for now the new line could cost about the same per KM. If you went from South Keys to the Queensway Carleton Hospital / eastern Bells Corners area - that's about 14KM X 12.7M/KM = $178M.

Let's add on to that with the cost of fixing a potential difficulty at the old CN rail bridge across the Rideau River. VIA rail uses that bridge and the old rail overpass over Prince of Wales Drive. So let's say to facilitate grade separating VIA from any LRT service we build an LRT bridge (with a much needed MUP crossing), and a new overpass for Prince of Wales Drive.

I'm guessing maybe ~$50M for a Rideau River bridge, and ~$10M for a new overpass over Prince of Wales? So +$60M - leading to a total of $238M. (I'm really guessing at this section).

Just to be conservative let's round it up to $250M. Even doubling it again to $500M would still make for a hell of deal.

Stations:
South Keys
Greenboro
McCarthy Rd (requires grade separation)
Riverside Drive
Prince of Wales Drive
Hunt Club/West Hunt Club
Merivale Rd
Woodroffe Ave
(maybe add in a stop at Craig Henry Park between these, it connects to the MUP running through the neighbourhood)
Greenbank
Baseline/Queensway Carleton Hospital
Bells Corners /Robertson Road

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  #6246  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2022, 11:34 AM
Athens Athens is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Given that the Walkley overpass is currently being rehabilitated, the likelihood of any improvement in frequency is zero for the next many years.

As long as we have a poor plan to coordinate local buses with the 12 minute Trillium Line frequency, it will be difficult to get the full benefit of this rail line. We can build the TOD mentioned but the amount of passengers that this will generate will be limited. We need to make it convenient for the 10,000s who live beyond walking distance. I live within the 5 km distance for light rail so often mentioned by the city, but generally speaking the trains don't go where I want to go without a second transfer.

The lack of rail service to existing Riverside South development closer to the Vimy Bridge is also a weakness of the current plan. It is truly weird how the construction of two stations in Riverside South has not stimulated any development close by so far. Eventually this will change, but it is stunning seeing elevated stations going up amongst the nothingness. As usual, the city has value engineered this line instead of bringing it to a major park n ride lot, and shopping and hundreds of existing homes within walking distance.

Instead of bringing transit to the people, we expect people to drive or move to transit. The results will be underwhelming.
I think those green field stations are THE way to build high order rail transit. It allows a development to start from scratch, and make the area truly transit oriented and walkable.
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  #6247  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2022, 1:05 PM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Why stop there? Run the train right out to Arnprior. Or at the very least, make a stop at March Road in central Kanata. Build a transfer station at the grade-separated crossing at Wesley Clover so those b*stards in the Kanata North area don't have to take a curley-cue bus to the park-n-ride at Eagleson ever again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtecyo View Post
Stations:
South Keys
Greenboro
McCarthy Rd (requires grade separation)
Riverside Drive
Prince of Wales Drive
Hunt Club/West Hunt Club
Merivale Rd
Woodroffe Ave
(maybe add in a stop at Craig Henry Park between these, it connects to the MUP running through the neighbourhood)
Greenbank
Baseline/Queensway Carleton Hospital
Bells Corners /Robertson Road
March South/Wesley Clover
March North/Kanata North
Carp (lol the people of Carp would probably say 'no thanks' to additional intensification due to the train)
Kinburn
Arnprior

[IM]
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  #6248  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2022, 2:20 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by vtecyo View Post
Wikipedia tells me that the Trillium line's pilot cost was $21M. Assuming it's in year 2000 dollars - that's $33M in 2022 dollars. That's for 8.5KM, 6 stations and three trains, signaling, maintenance yard etc.

The 2011 upgrades cost another +$60M - (+$75M in today's dollars) - so about $108M for everything in 2022 dollars or $12.7M / KM for the pre-stage 2 Trillium line.

Let's say for now the new line could cost about the same per KM. If you went from South Keys to the Queensway Carleton Hospital / eastern Bells Corners area - that's about 14KM X 12.7M/KM = $178M.

Let's add on to that with the cost of fixing a potential difficulty at the old CN rail bridge across the Rideau River. VIA rail uses that bridge and the old rail overpass over Prince of Wales Drive. So let's say to facilitate grade separating VIA from any LRT service we build an LRT bridge (with a much needed MUP crossing), and a new overpass for Prince of Wales Drive.

I'm guessing maybe ~$50M for a Rideau River bridge, and ~$10M for a new overpass over Prince of Wales? So +$60M - leading to a total of $238M. (I'm really guessing at this section).

Just to be conservative let's round it up to $250M. Even doubling it again to $500M would still make for a hell of deal.
We don't build track for the sake of building track. We build transit to serve riders. It's not "a hell of a deal' unless you can show there's no better way to get ridership than this investment. Personally I think $500M spent on making bus service more frequent is likely to generate much higher ridership than this one line.
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  #6249  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2022, 3:56 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by vtecyo View Post
:
:
Stations:
South Keys
Greenboro
McCarthy Rd (requires grade separation)
Riverside Drive
Prince of Wales Drive
Hunt Club/West Hunt Club
Merivale Rd
Woodroffe Ave
(maybe add in a stop at Craig Henry Park between these, it connects to the MUP running through the neighbourhood)
Greenbank
Baseline/Queensway Carleton Hospital
Bells Corners /Robertson Road
One of the problems with using old rail corridors for rapid transit is that the trains usually ran in areas away from people. If you look to see what surrounds most of your proposed line, it is light industrial, and, at best, fences along the back of low-density properties. The original O-Train line had the advantage of going through Carleton University land. This gave it one ‘trip generator’ – and the unofficial moniker “Carleton Express”. Apart from the university, it was “the train from nowhere, to nowhere”.

As a pilot project, to see if rail would be accepted in Ottawa, the old line that passed through Carleton was the obvious choice. There were other disused rail lines in the city, but, really, only that line offered a new transit route to a desired destination.

Yes, the rail corridor that runs from Kanata-North to Colonnade is under-utilized, but it is still a freight line. How many people in Ottawa know about that? Probably not many – because it doesn’t go through places that a lot of people frequent. If it ran immediately beside Algonquin College, then maybe it would be useful.

You propose a stop at the Queensway-Carleton Hospital – but hospitals are (perhaps surprisingly) very poor trip generators. OC Transpo has trouble justifying running a bus through the General Campus of the Civic Hospital. If it were not for the uOttawa students, all routes would remain out front. And the Queensway-Carleton does not have the benefit of a large student population.

There is some redevelopment opportunity around Colonnade, but it is an established light industrial area. Something that Ottawa is slowly running out of. The city needs areas for light industry, so removing Colonnade from the list would be a huge mistake. Unfortunately, light industrial areas tend to be areas of low job density.

The proposed route would encounter conflicts with VIA trains from west of Prince of Wales to Riverside, crossing the river. This would require some form of grade-separated rail crossing, either west or east of the river, and a parallel track for that segment. And, as you mentioned, there would be a new bridge over Prince of Wales and the river, and perhaps even Riverside.

Further along, again, as you mentioned, McCarthy would need grade separation. I believe that a curve could be added to the south-west of the Walkley Diamond without having to do much to alter the stormwater management facility – but the MUP might need to be removed.

All of the challenges aside, I would suggest that the line be extended on either end. Since the City seems keen to NOT have the train from the Airport Link go downtown, why not have it connect to this. The airport train could continue on a short parallel track beside the Trillium Line, but still connect with South Keys and Greenboro, and then continue along this new line all the way up to Kanata-North. Many years ago, there was talk of improving the transit link between the Kanata-North Tech Sector and the airport. Well, this would do that. (Better late than never?)

What this new line won’t do is provide a lot of other destinations along its length. This would be a low-usage route (thus the suggested use of the smaller Airport trains), but would, likely, cost a couple of Billion dollars. (Yes, the original O-Train was cheap, but those days are long gone.)

Although I like the idea of reusing the rail line, as a west-east transit route, ¾ of a Billion dollars for the Baseline BRT might be a better expenditure.
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  #6250  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2022, 7:03 PM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
We don't build track for the sake of building track. We build transit to serve riders. It's not "a hell of a deal' unless you can show there's no better way to get ridership than this investment. Personally I think $500M spent on making bus service more frequent is likely to generate much higher ridership than this one line.
I agree we should increase transit funding for bus routes across the city - I just think it's much easier to get one time funding for rail transit from upper levels of government than hope for more ongoing funding for politically unsexy bus service. In any case it we look at as a way to create a faster route across the city to improve the overall network - and connect to local bus routes in the south end - then this feels a pretty good and pretty cheap way to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
One of the problems with using old rail corridors for rapid transit is that the trains usually ran in areas away from people. If you look to see what surrounds most of your proposed line, it is light industrial, and, at best, fences along the back of low-density properties. The original O-Train line had the advantage of going through Carleton University land. This gave it one ‘trip generator’ – and the unofficial moniker “Carleton Express”. Apart from the university, it was “the train from nowhere, to nowhere”.

As a pilot project, to see if rail would be accepted in Ottawa, the old line that passed through Carleton was the obvious choice. There were other disused rail lines in the city, but, really, only that line offered a new transit route to a desired destination.

Yes, the rail corridor that runs from Kanata-North to Colonnade is under-utilized, but it is still a freight line. How many people in Ottawa know about that? Probably not many – because it doesn’t go through places that a lot of people frequent. If it ran immediately beside Algonquin College, then maybe it would be useful....
To your points - when the Trillium line was built out it's ridership exceeded expectations - it made crossing a good portion of the city much faster and reliable - so people changed their journeys to take advantage of it and make new patterns of travel - changing destinations, even changing where they lived as well. I recall reading about how lots of people moved out to Riverside South on the promise of the first LRT plan - which was cancelled - and they were bitterly disappointed. Would they have bothered moving there without it?

I expect this line could have a similar effect of inducing demand well beyond the destinations currently adjacent to the potential stations. It would have great connections with major N/S roads along the line. Those roads could have have additional bus service added to induce more demand - and serve to the major destinations within a few km, and serve the local neighbourhoods.

Let's say you needed to go to Algonquin College, you could take a long slow bus ride down Baseline, Hunt Club, or a slow neighbourhood route across Nepean. With this line a lot people could quickly get all the way over to Woodroffe Ave from a good portion of the city and switch to a north bound bus, or use it to get to the future Barrhaven lrt extension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
What this new line won’t do is provide a lot of other destinations along its length. This would be a low-usage route (thus the suggested use of the smaller Airport trains),...
I think in the short term that's true, but the overall effect on the network would be well worth it in the short term and there are in fact large swaths of land and low density suburb stores a parking lots all along the line right beside the potential stations.

If you look at the zoning on Geo Ottawa of the lands near each station I can see properties that could be developed into places that could attract ridership.

On either side of Riverside Drive, and on the west side of Merivale it's zoned for development, even though people think of it as parkland - it's really just an empty field running all the way to Woodroffe with the same I1 zoning. I don't know if we'd want to fill all of it in - but it has potential.

The Hunt Club /Hunt Club west location would be less friendly to intense development - given the airport flightpath above it.

Greenbank doesn't appear have much spare space to develop, but the N/S connection would be good, and the neighbourhood would benefit.

At the Queensway Carleton site the station would be on the edge of a big empty field, which is currently zoned Rural institutional - but the list of possible uses could include quite a lot, and anyway - zoning can be changed.(RI - Rural Institutional Zone )

The east end of Bells Corners has lot of low density suburban commercial on - and the north east corner of Roberston Rd and the line is an empty field with RC - Rural Commercial Zoning . Which again has a lot of permitted uses, and again - zoning can be changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
All of the challenges aside, I would suggest that the line be extended on either end. Since the City seems keen to NOT have the train from the Airport Link go downtown, why not have it connect to this. The airport train could continue on a short parallel track beside the Trillium Line, but still connect with South Keys and Greenboro, and then continue along this new line all the way up to Kanata-North. Many years ago, there was talk of improving the transit link between the Kanata-North Tech Sector and the airport. Well, this would do that. (Better late than never?)
I agree it should ultimately be much longer - in this case what I've mapped out might be a reasonable phase 1. Going to Kanata North, and eastwards could be phase 2/3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
but would, likely, cost a couple of Billion dollars. (Yes, the original O-Train was cheap, but those days are long gone.)
I'm not sure how the cost per km would push it into the billions, I've already accounted for currency inflation since 2000, and even if we double it again to reach that $500M cost to account for other inflation - it still seems like I'm in the right ballpark.

However - that's just my back of the napkin estimate. Until proven otherwise I think it would still be a bargain.
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  #6251  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2022, 4:07 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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(maybe add in a stop at Craig Henry Park between these, it connects to the MUP running through the neighbourhood)
Yes, would definitely add a platform somewhere as close to midway between Woodroffe and Greenbank as possible.
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  #6252  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2022, 7:32 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Yes, would definitely add a platform somewhere as close to midway between Woodroffe and Greenbank as possible.
Any route of this nature needs a major terminus at both ends. As a result, service needs to reach the Kanata North business park in the west, and I kind of like the idea that the eastern terminus be at the airport. At least much more of the city would have direct service to the airport.
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  #6253  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2022, 9:56 PM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Any route of this nature needs a major terminus at both ends. As a result, service needs to reach the Kanata North business park in the west, and I kind of like the idea that the eastern terminus be at the airport. At least much more of the city would have direct service to the airport.
Let's say the western end is March Road at Carling. That's another 7.7KM x ~17M/KM = +$131M.

The total is then $238M+$131M = ~$369M... still not too bad based on my assumptions.

However... there's a bunch more grade separations needed along the way compared to the first segment - and will require some more expense per km.

Corkstown Road, Watt's Creek pathway, Bayfield Ave(could just be blocked off), Herzberg Rd and Teron Rd would need grade separation. There used to be an entrance to the Tim Hortons and Metro off Carling near March Rd - but it appears closed already.

I don't know what each of those would cost, but I suspect it would add a few $10's of millions to add them all.

Let's say Corkstown, Herzberg and Teron get full rail overpasses or underpasses, Bayfield is closed, and Watt's creek is a cheap underpass. So ~$10M per rail overpass? Plus a bit more for the Watt's pathway underpass and the long embankments/trenches needed to bring the line up or below grade for each. That could add a few million more - so let's just call it $60M to be safe.

$369M + $60M = $429M - but at a higher per km cost than phase one - and risking the perception that it's a bad idea due to duplicating the route partly to Kanata when the extension of the Confederation line is built.

Even through it would be cheaper per km than the Confederation Kanata extension - and could probably be done sooner as well - it doesn't look as obviously slam dunk on a map to the layperson.

If we double the cost for the sake of being conservative - that would be ~$860M for 21KM and 13 or 14 stations.
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  #6254  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2022, 11:04 PM
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Williamoforange Williamoforange is offline
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The estimates from 2017 put the Merivale, and etc rail-grade separation at 75 to 145 million per crossing.

Taking the lowest estimate at face value with no inflation would put the rail grade crossing separation for a Walkley yard to Kanata north at $375 million not $60 million (You forgot McCarthy Rd). Now, that doesn't include the second bridge over the Rideau river / Via separation which is likely in the same ballpark. So $450 million and not a single station built, not a single siding created, nor a single train bought....

Second, buying those trains, The trillium line upgrade is still only 12 min frequencies, with 7 trains at the cost of $106 million on a 24 km worth of track. Lets estimate that this full route is 24km. That puts the cost at $556 million.

As for comparisons to the trillium line original plan + upgrade your comparing to was for a system that didn't need that much work in terms of its rails nor adding sidings. The chosen path above will need both as its only single track and is (the last I checked) only maintained to a grade 1 class...so limited to 16 km/hr

Lastly, as others have noted, who is this route serving? theres no Dev potential, no added bus infrastructure costed, and little in terms of nearby residents.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...ssings-in-barrhaven-area-would-cost-430m

https://tc.canada.ca/en/rail-transportat...track-safety-rules-subpart-classes-track
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  #6255  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2022, 3:51 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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The estimates from 2017 put the Merivale, and etc rail-grade separation at 75 to 145 million per crossing.

Taking the lowest estimate at face value with no inflation would put the rail grade crossing separation for a Walkley yard to Kanata north at $375 million not $60 million (You forgot McCarthy Rd). Now, that doesn't include the second bridge over the Rideau river / Via separation which is likely in the same ballpark. So $450 million and not a single station built, not a single siding created, nor a single train bought....

Second, buying those trains, The trillium line upgrade is still only 12 min frequencies, with 7 trains at the cost of $106 million on a 24 km worth of track. Lets estimate that this full route is 24km. That puts the cost at $556 million.

As for comparisons to the trillium line original plan + upgrade your comparing to was for a system that didn't need that much work in terms of its rails nor adding sidings. The chosen path above will need both as its only single track and is (the last I checked) only maintained to a grade 1 class...so limited to 16 km/hr

Lastly, as others have noted, who is this route serving? theres no Dev potential, no added bus infrastructure costed, and little in terms of nearby residents.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...ssings-in-barrhaven-area-would-cost-430m

https://tc.canada.ca/en/rail-transportat...track-safety-rules-subpart-classes-track
The Trillium Line had the rails completely replaced and passing sidings added.

I presume that LINT trains would be cheaper to purchase than double length FLIRT trains.

There is value in offering a transfer route across the city. Baseline BRT will likely only run as far west as Woodroffe in Phase 1 and therefore offer little to those heading to Kanata. Even the full implementation of the Baseline BRT will not reach Kanata, so a trip across the more south sector of the city remains cumbersome with too many transfers.

Historically, the cross-town bus route (formerly Route 6) along Carling and through the Glebe was very successful not because there was tremendous density along the route, but because it provided an alternative way to cross the city. It gained its passengers by allowing convenient transfers and bypassing downtown just as the Trillium Line facilitated. The Trillium Line not only served to Carleton but also Confederation Heights, the Civic Hospital and Tunney's Pasture. My brother used to use the Trillium Line to go to Tunney's Pasture every day. A short transfer to Algonquin College is not a deal breaker with very frequent transit on Woodroffe.
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  #6256  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2022, 4:33 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Any route of this nature needs a major terminus at both ends. As a result, service needs to reach the Kanata North business park in the west, and I kind of like the idea that the eastern terminus be at the airport. At least much more of the city would have direct service to the airport.
Phase 2!

But also, a well-located and -designed station with the most convenient possible connections by all other non-car modes of transportation to the Queensway-Carleton, could easily serve as a major terminal destination if Kanata wasn't do-able in a first phase.
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  #6257  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2022, 4:33 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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If we double the cost for the sake of being conservative - that would be ~$860M for 21KM and 13 or 14 stations.
Shut up and take my money?
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  #6258  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2022, 6:34 PM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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Originally Posted by Williamoforange View Post
The estimates from 2017 put the Merivale, and etc rail-grade separation at 75 to 145 million per crossing.

Taking the lowest estimate at face value with no inflation would put the rail grade crossing separation for a Walkley yard to Kanata north at $375 million not $60 million (You forgot McCarthy Rd). Now, that doesn't include the second bridge over the Rideau river / Via separation which is likely in the same ballpark. So $450 million and not a single station built, not a single siding created, nor a single train bought....

Second, buying those trains, The trillium line upgrade is still only 12 min frequencies, with 7 trains at the cost of $106 million on a 24 km worth of track. Lets estimate that this full route is 24km. That puts the cost at $556 million.

As for comparisons to the trillium line original plan + upgrade your comparing to was for a system that didn't need that much work in terms of its rails nor adding sidings. The chosen path above will need both as its only single track and is (the last I checked) only maintained to a grade 1 class...so limited to 16 km/hr

Lastly, as others have noted, who is this route serving? theres no Dev potential, no added bus infrastructure costed, and little in terms of nearby residents.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...ssings-in-barrhaven-area-would-cost-430m

https://tc.canada.ca/en/rail-transportat...track-safety-rules-subpart-classes-track
The extra cost of the grade separations is one reasons why I'm not convinced that going west of Bells Corners would be an easy sell. Although even if the total minimum cost was closer to what your saying for just going to Bells Corners, it's still an existing route with relatively little cost per km compared to the confederation line. I think it would end up cheaper per km than Trillium phase 2.

As lrt's friend said - the initial Trillium line costs included replacing the rails in the 2013 upgrade [oops - I said 2011 before ] - and some sidings etc. I'd imagine a bunch of the stations would be double tracked - but it would mostly run a a single track line like the original Trillium line.

I disagree about development potential along the line. There are empty fields and single story suburban commercial/industrial spaces near many of the stations. It would take years to fill that in - just like it has along the Trillium line.

I don't think it's as ideal of a project as the Trillium pilot was - but if it was - it would have been done already.

In any case I'm thinking of this in terms of what creates a network improvement for the whole south end - and could induce demand for transit in parts of the city that seem heavily car centric.
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  #6259  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2022, 10:39 PM
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Williamoforange Williamoforange is offline
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Originally Posted by vtecyo View Post
The extra cost of the grade separations is one reasons why I'm not convinced that going west of Bells Corners would be an easy sell. Although even if the total minimum cost was closer to what your saying for just going to Bells Corners, it's still an existing route with relatively little cost per km compared to the confederation line. I think it would end up cheaper per km than Trillium phase 2.

As lrt's friend said - the initial Trillium line costs included replacing the rails in the 2013 upgrade [oops - I said 2011 before ] - and some sidings etc. I'd imagine a bunch of the stations would be double tracked - but it would mostly run a a single track line like the original Trillium line.

I disagree about development potential along the line. There are empty fields and single story suburban commercial/industrial spaces near many of the stations. It would take years to fill that in - just like it has along the Trillium line.

I don't think it's as ideal of a project as the Trillium pilot was - but if it was - it would have been done already.

In any case I'm thinking of this in terms of what creates a network improvement for the whole south end - and could induce demand for transit in parts of the city that seem heavily car centric.
Leaving out west of Bels corner while the expensive section is to me leaving out the reason to even attempt to build this. As relying on induced demand to provide the ridership requires that the route goes to a prominent destination, like Kanata North or even a connection to possibly, Confed LRT stage 3.

AFAIK, neither the original pilot nor the upgrade included a full replacement of the rails as part of the upgrade. It was just welding the existing rails together, replacing section beyond repair, and adding siding. Stage 2 is what includes full replacement and that's costing ~663 million. As for running single tracked stage 2 will be roughly 40% double tracked to get 12 minute intervals. To me stage 2 would be a better comparison on costs so $27 million/km on the low end (only 4 stations included in that cost).

As for connection, again to what? this isn't a crosstown route (at least not without the west section), it has no major destination nor origins and its not cheap. Future idea sure in the far future after the current issues have been resolved, one of which will soundly and negatively impact this idea. That issue being the lack of bus frequency or even bus priority.
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  #6260  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2022, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Williamoforange View Post
AFAIK, neither the original pilot nor the upgrade included a full replacement of the rails as part of the upgrade. It was just welding the existing rails together, replacing section beyond repair, and adding siding.
This isn't conclusive evidence, but all the Trillium Line rail I've seen was stamped 2001, and I was always under the impression that it was replaced in full (tunnels and bridges excepted) shortly after opening. When the line opened, it was jointed rail and service was every 20 minutes. Upgrading to CWR got them to the 15 minute service that lasted until the changes in 2013-2015.
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