Great Canadian Skyline Thread II

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To me the comparison that works the best for Ottawa is Canberra. Their reputations suggest both cities are "fine" but pretty boring in comparison to the other major cities nearby (Toronto/Montreal for Ottawa and Melbourne/Sydney for Canberra).

[Rico Rommheim]

Canberra makes sense. Ottawa looks better than Canberra too.

Brussels is way too imposing a city architecturally to be put next to Ottawa.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

Canberra makes sense. Ottawa looks better than Canberra too.

Brussels is way too imposing a city architecturally to be put next to Ottawa.

I didn't mean it quite that literally

I meant it in the sense that like Brussels, Ottawa has the capital city trappings but on a much more modest scale than Washington (or Brussels' flashier neighbour Paris).

[Acajack]

Canberra and Ottawa do have some similarities, but Ottawa is a more fulsome, complete and interesting city than Canberra.

I often say that Canberra is what Ottawa's detractors would say Ottawa is like.

But unlike Canberra, the Ottawa area has a decent pre-existing urban history, and a more varied economy including some heavy industrial past and modern-day hi-tech, among other things.

As for Brussels, it's often maligned when compared to Paris so yes it has that in common with Ottawa. But it's still a classic European capital with about 1000 years of history, with at least half of that as a "capital".

It's not Paris but it does have significantly more panache and grandeur than Ottawa does.

One thing that places like Brussels have that Ottawa has very little of is a "mandarin class" that has effectively run the affairs of the country intergenerationally over a long period of time.

Few people you meet in Ottawa give off that mandarin class vibe, and those who've spent their professional lives "running Canada" typically move away from Ottawa at some point, once that task is done.

In that sense, the relative absence of a deeply rooted mandarin class means Ottawa often feels more like a new economy (almost techie) city like Denver or Calgary than it does a well-established seat of power.

There are both good and bad sides to that.

[MolsonExport]

Was it Ottawa that was known as 'the city that fun forgot'...or was that Toronto? Either way, this is a very outdated stereotype. Still, as far as capital cities of major nations, Ottawa punches below the belt, even if it does well by Canadian standards. Montreal (and Toronto, but I picked Montreal as it has a much greater stock of the grand old prewar buildings you want to find in a major city) would hit just at the belt for what you would expect of a capital city of a G7 country, and the eighth largest economy in the world.

Canberra is sad, by comparison. Making a (compromise) capital city takes time, as witnessed by Ottawa, which hit the critical mass many decades before Canberra.

As for European countries with less grand capitals...once upon a time (West) Germany had Bonn, but they sensibly moved it back to Berlin after unification.

France, Italy, UK....all find their capitals in the primate cities of their countries. As do Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Czechia, Greece, Portugal, Hungary, Sweden, Austria, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Ireland, Bulgaria, Slovenia, and Croatia. All with capital cities that are more impressive than Ottawa. Spain...I prefer Barcelona, but Madrid is no slouch. Netherlands...Rotterdam may be as large, but it pales in cultural and historical clout compared to Amsterdam, the rightful capital. Belgium...classic compromise city (Brussels), not nearly as nice as Antwerp or Brugge. Switzerland has Bern, which is not nearly as well known as Zurich (German speaking primate city) or Geneva (French speaking primate city). Russia...Moscow is the obvious choice nowadays, even if it once was St. Petersburg.

I can't really comment on Serbia, Belarus, Slovakia, Moldova, Albania, Bosnia, the three Baltic countries (all with primate cities as capitals, but I am not sure about their relative cultural merits), and the bunch of middling principalities and state-lets.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd argue that Ottawa even outside those specific areas is still a pretty decent city by (North) American standards and compared to cities of its size on this continent.

Most American cities in Ottawa's class were badly damaged by decades of neglect. Many in fact have better bones and architecture across the city than Ottawa does but generally the rejuvenation that's taken place has been on fairly modest scale.

I would generally agree with this as well. Just got back from an extended weekend in Ottawa with the in-laws and am reminded that despite some of my personal dislikes (undergrad days) it's a pretty decent city. And the loss of some of my favourite places notwithstanding is much more "complete" than a few decades ago. Despite the lack of skyscrapers (sort of changing) it's much more intact than most American cities in the size range and does feel like it has a decently large vibrant area. Moreso than Calgary/Edmonton in the same size range IMO, though maybe not surprising since Ottawa was a lot larger in 1940.

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is also the way your average Ottawa denizen dresses and stuff like their pursuits, but that's another, more controversial subject. Perhaps for another thread.

Don't even get me started here - definitely part of the personal dislikes I was alluding too.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is also the way your average Ottawa denizen dresses and stuff like their pursuits, but that's another, more controversial subject. Perhaps for another thread.

Originally Posted by niwell

I Don't even get me started here - definitely part of the personal dislikes I was alluding too.

I'd like you to get started. Sounds like it would be fun to hear.

My only Ottawa impression when it comes to the people is that every single person I've ever met or been acquainted with from there has been extremely easygoing and nice in the standard Canadian way, almost to a ridiculously stereotypical and exaggerated degree. As if the diplomatic nature of the city has rubbed off on its citizens and made them diplomatic by temperament and personality.

Whether my impression would be considered accurate by people who live there or are better acquainted with Ottawa, I have no idea. Am I wrong?

[WhipperSnapper]

Ambition ... eh, it's a government town. The 1990s beautifications to make Ottawa appear more "regal" have become dated and rough.

Canada still boasts a top 10 economy however it's global influence now and then reflects being the most junior member of the G7 and one that eeked into the exclusive club over one of the languages spoken here .

[Rico Rommheim]

Montreal: City and Hill by Foofoo MacShoe, on Flickr


Montreal by Foofoo MacShoe, on Flickr


Untitled-3 by Foofoo MacShoe, on Flickr


Untitled-2 by Foofoo MacShoe, on Flickr


Untitled-4 by Foofoo MacShoe, on Flickr


Untitled-1 by Foofoo MacShoe, on Flickr

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Ambition ... eh, it's a government town. The 1990s beautifications to make Ottawa appear more "regal" have become dated and rough.

Canada still boasts a top 10 economy however it's global influence now and then reflects being the most junior member of the G7 and one that eeked into the exclusive club over one of the languages spoken here .

I assume you mean English and not French?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Was it Ottawa that was known as 'the city that fun forgot'...or was that Toronto?

It was Ottawa.

Also... "Ennui-on-the-Rideau".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Montreal (and Toronto, but I picked Montreal as it has a much greater stock of the grand old prewar buildings you want to find in a major city) would hit just at the belt for what you would expect of a capital city of a G7 country, and the eighth largest economy in the world.

I've often come to this conclusion as well.

I'd argue that over the past 200 years, Montreal is the only city in Canada that underwent development over long periods of time always with the idea in mind that it was and would always be the largest city in the country, and even at times its capital.

That hubris has largely dissipated now, but vestiges of it still show up here and there in the city.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by cranes

Kitchener-Waterloo

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/24569459/1401-375-king-st-n-waterloo

I can attest that this street is every bit as bleak on the ground as it appears to be from the air.

[Coldrsx]

Gronk on SRC
https://edmonton.skyrisecities.com/forum/threads/edmonton-riverboat.27873/page-3

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I can attest that this street is every bit as bleak on the ground as it appears to be from the air.

When people say they want single family detached home neighbourhoods to be replaced with “missing middle”, they imagine it’ll look like Brooklyn or the Plateau, but it will really end up looking like this.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

When people say they want single family detached home neighbourhoods to be replaced with “missing middle”, they imagine it’ll look like Brooklyn or the Plateau, but it will really end up looking like this.

And when people say they want high-rises they imagine Manhattan, but in Waterloo they look like this: https://goo.gl/maps/hJt1332shkadAV237

It's mostly just an exceptionally ugly place, regardless of housing typology. There's otherwise no reason that missing middle neighbourhoods can't look something more like this with the right regulations & culture in place: https://goo.gl/maps/nBUGhHA6PkuCBouPA

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

When people say they want single family detached home neighbourhoods to be replaced with “missing middle”, they imagine it’ll look like Brooklyn or the Plateau, but it will really end up looking like this.

Even Montreal doesn't build Plateaus anymore, not even in the inner city.

It builds Griffintowns, which are considered a "win" in contemporary Canadian urban design circles.

But they're not like the Plateau.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

And when people say they want high-rises they imagine Manhattan, but in Waterloo they look like this: https://goo.gl/maps/hJt1332shkadAV237

It's mostly just an exceptionally ugly place, regardless of housing typology.

the great wall of banality.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

There's otherwise no reason that missing middle neighbourhoods can't look something more like this with the right regulations & culture in place: https://goo.gl/maps/nBUGhHA6PkuCBouPA

One reason "missing middle" will not look like that Amsterdam example is that that neighbourhood is a complete new build by a single developer. To achieve that on our yellow belt, one developer would have to be successful in buying out both sides of an existing SFH street, demolishing it all, and building a townhouse area from scratch.

Beyond the logistical nightmare of attempting that, I don't know if that pencils out in Toronto or Vancouver. That's the other thing about "missing middle" - it's been sold to the public as a gentle density increase that will lead to affordability, but I don't see how existing land costs can be recouped through lowrise construction and still be affordable to the masses.

I don't want to be this forum's Randall O'Toole, and I'm sorry if this post strays too much from skylines, but I feel like the whole "missing middle" idea has been sold as a panacea to our housing crisis without too much real thought.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I don't want to be this forum's Randall O'Toole, and I'm sorry if this post strays too much from skylines, but I feel like the whole "missing middle" idea has been sold as a panacea without too much real thought.

I think it's one of those ideas that sounds vaguely nice to a bunch of different groups that each have different goals in mind that in practice can't be satisfied at the same time.

The NIMBY/BANANA crowd imagine what is happening today, but towers get sawed off at 4-8 floors so there is less disruption and traffic. The affordability crowd imagine affordable walkups for students. The urbanists imagine European streetscapes. Environmentalists imagine lowrise wood construction instead of concrete and preservation of older building stock.