The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[biguc]

Of course running 15 minute EMUs would be expensive. GO is only now, after decades of growing ridership and incrementally upgrading their lines upgrading to that level of service. That's why you start out running hourly DMUs and build from there.

And I'll say it now, the Langley Skytrain is a mistake that will end up saddling Translink with an underused liability.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by biguc

Of course running 15 minute EMUs would be expensive. GO is only now, after decades of growing ridership and incrementally upgrading their lines upgrading to that level of service. That's why you start out running hourly DMUs and build from there.

And I'll say it now, the Langley Skytrain is a mistake that will end up saddling Translink with an underused liability.

I don’t quite agree with that verdict. Millenium Line along Lougheed Highway had had low ridership for a long time too until a few years back. I think sky train extension to Langley will be worthwhile (eventually) likewise.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I don’t quite agree with that verdict. Millenium Line along Lougheed Highway had had low ridership for a long time too until a few years back. I think sky train extension to Langley will be worthwhile (eventually) likewise.

Eventually it will work out, I agree. On a long enough timeline, with Lower Mainland growth rates, it couldn't not. But in the meantime, the resources Translink is putting into it could go further elsewhere. I think there's a meaningful distinction between this and the Millenium Line, too: Millenium was the middle chunk of a line that's now being completed and it was low-hanging fruit in a still-smallish metro; the Langley extension is neither of those things.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by nname

Nothing they can do about it when they did not own the track, and CP does not want to lease out more track time to run the extra train. There is also no space to build extra tracks for the most part of the line.

.... what about adding new lines. WCE has been around for about 25 years with no new lines. GO and AMT/EXO added new lines within their first 25 years.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by biguc

Eventually it will work out, I agree. On a long enough timeline, with Lower Mainland growth rates, it couldn't not. But in the meantime, the resources Translink is putting into it could go further elsewhere. I think there's a meaningful distinction between this and the Millenium Line, too: Millenium was the middle chunk of a line that's now being completed and it was low-hanging fruit in a still-smallish metro; the Langley extension is neither of those things.

Where would you put the resources? Richmond and the Tri-Cities already have SkyTrain, Vancouver and Burnaby have two lines, and the Expo Line from Surrey is clearly a success. The North Shore could arguably use service, but let's be realistic when it comes to prioritizing. The population growth projections for the Surrey/Langley area suggest an additional 420 000 people by 2050. That is more than double the current population of the entire North Shore.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I saw it got cold so climate change is fake.
I was outside at night and didn't get a sun burn, so that must be fake.

Sounds silly, right?

Hard numbers are facts.

"I saw" is not a fact.

I think it's an interesting conversation to have regarding the nature of knowledge and what counts as valid sources of information. Keep in mind that testimony is a form of evidence and one that's broadly used in many different capacities including some that are pretty high stakes and official. Obviously most of us don't know one another in person and therefore can't feel 100% sure of the reliability of such testimony. But "hard numbers" provided by corporations and governments can have errors too and they can also have reasons to mislead. So while I agree that official stats from a reliable source are often preferable, I don't think it's good to completely disregard other forms of information as being worthless.

In your example, the problem is that the testimony being provided (the temperatures the person experienced) isn't really relevant to large scale climate trends which see small differences in averages that aren't really perceptible at the individual level. So their conclusions about climate change aren't valid. But you wouldn't say that their testimony about the weather they experienced was necessarily invalid unless they provided a spreadsheet from Environment Canada showing proving their experience. Likewise, in this case the discussion was about how busy a specific rail line is, so a person's first hand observation of the traffic level of the line would give an good indication of that. For it to be similar to the climate change analogy you'd need someone observing the rail traffic on one line in Ontario for a short time frame and drawing conclusions about long term rail traffic trends across North America lol.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

.... what about adding new lines. WCE has been around for about 25 years with no new lines. GO and AMT/EXO added new lines within their first 25 years.

A short extension to WCE that could be made is to run trains south from Mission to Abbotsford along the CP corridor. This would require moving the Mission station a bit west of its current location, or even south to the VIA Rail stop.

An added advantage is that these tracks cross Highway 1 just west of Highway 11, so a station could be put in Huntington around Highway 1 in addition to downtown Abbotsford. This would be useful for both drivers and bus services connecting to Chilliwack. Decades ago CP actually had a daily passenger service along this exact corridor, from Huntington to Vancouver via Port Coquitlam, though it was a mixed train.

If an additional WCE line were to be established, the CN tracks from New West through Fort Langley to Chilliwack would be far more direct than the old BCER corridor. Most of that corridor, at least as far east as Abbotsford, appears to have sufficient space to add a third track, though the Thornton yard at Port Mann and the New West bridge would both be issues.

This is, of course, all dependent on CN and CP, and we all know how cooperative they are around passenger rail.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think it's an interesting conversation to have regarding the nature of knowledge and what counts as valid sources of information. Keep in mind that testimony is a form of evidence and one that's broadly used in many different capacities including some that are pretty high stakes and official. Obviously most of us don't know one another in person and therefore can't feel 100% sure of the reliability of such testimony. But "hard numbers" provided by corporations and governments can have errors too and they can also have reasons to mislead. So while I agree that official stats from a reliable source are often preferable, I don't think it's good to completely disregard other forms of information as being worthless.

In your example, the problem is that the testimony being provided (the temperatures the person experienced) isn't really relevant to large scale climate trends which see small differences in averages that aren't really perceptible at the individual level. So their conclusions about climate change aren't valid. But you wouldn't say that their testimony about the weather they experienced was necessarily invalid unless they provided a spreadsheet from Environment Canada showing proving their experience. Likewise, in this case the discussion was about how busy a specific rail line is, so a person's first hand observation of the traffic level of the line would give an good indication of that. For it to be similar to the climate change analogy you'd need someone observing the rail traffic on one line in Ontario for a short time frame and drawing conclusions about long term rail traffic trends across North America lol.

I have a friend who works for CN and drives the trains. He has told me how busy the line is that he runs. I trust him over someone I don't know. Now, having said this, he does not run the lines in question. However, he does have friends that do. I would trust those people over someone here. So, when someone I do not know says something, I want to get the facts. Seeing X number of trains a day is not enough. Saying how one Via train is passed by X number of freight trains is not enough. That is where numbers, that, legitimately are hard to come by, are provided would help. Then I can see the data which either proves or refutes my friend's information which then allows me to change my opinion.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

A short extension to WCE that could be made is to run trains south from Mission to Abbotsford along the CP corridor. This would require moving the Mission station a bit west of its current location, or even south to the VIA Rail stop.

An added advantage is that these tracks cross Highway 1 just west of Highway 11, so a station could be put in Huntington around Highway 1 in addition to downtown Abbotsford. This would be useful for both drivers and bus services connecting to Chilliwack. Decades ago CP actually had a daily passenger service along this exact corridor, from Huntington to Vancouver via Port Coquitlam, though it was a mixed train.

If an additional WCE line were to be established, the CN tracks from New West through Fort Langley to Chilliwack would be far more direct than the old BCER corridor. Most of that corridor, at least as far east as Abbotsford, appears to have sufficient space to add a third track, though the Thornton yard at Port Mann and the New West bridge would both be issues.

This is, of course, all dependent on CN and CP, and we all know how cooperative they are around passenger rail.

What about a line to Squamish or White Rock? Everyone is only concerned with the existing one and the places it already serves. GO expanded beyond where they first served. AMT did too, and EXO is doing more. My beef isn't that places that are already served aren't served enough, but that the other places not served aren't.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Please keep me posting. There's plenty of us that enjoy learning from professionals in the field.

And yeah. It's really hard to discuss some of this stuff without sharing proprietary data.

Like i said, he’s insufferable. Always has been. Im happy most of you here can appreciate the little bit of information i can provide and understand there are lots of things i cannot share for OBVIOUS reasons.

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I have a friend who works for CN and drives the trains. He has told me how busy the line is that he runs. I trust him over someone I don't know. Now, having said this, he does not run the lines in question. However, he does have friends that do. I would trust those people over someone here. So, when someone I do not know says something, I want to get the facts. Seeing X number of trains a day is not enough. Saying how one Via train is passed by X number of freight trains is not enough. That is where numbers, that, legitimately are hard to come by, are provided would help. Then I can see the data which either proves or refutes my friend's information which then allows me to change my opinion.



What about a line to Squamish or White Rock? Everyone is only concerned with the existing one and the places it already serves. GO expanded beyond where they first served. AMT did too, and EXO is doing more. My beef isn't that places that are already served aren't served enough, but that the other places not served aren't.

Hahahaha! Perfect! “I have a friend who runs trains granted not in SWO, but he has friends that do so….” Blah blah blah. How old are you? So you dont know your friends friends but you trust them anyway no matter what? Youre a strange bird arent ya?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

Hahahaha! Perfect! “I have a friend who runs trains granted not in SWO, but he has friends that do so….” Blah blah blah. How old are you? So you dont know your friends friends but you trust them anyway no matter what? Youre a strange bird arent ya?

I am very strange, but since I trust my friend over some really odd duck, I'll listen to him over the odd duck.

Would you trust me over your friends?

[Nite]

Toronto - Take a virtual ride of the new Finch West LRT.

• Video Link

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am very strange, but since I trust my friend over some really odd duck, I'll listen to him over the odd duck.

Would you trust me over your friends?

If you had direct knowledge of a situation they didnt of course. Most normal people would. You calling me odd is the pot calling the kettle black.

What terminal does your friend and his “friends” work out of? That will tell me all i need to know.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

If you had direct knowledge of a situation they didnt of course. Most normal people would. You calling me odd is the pot calling the kettle black.

What terminal does your friend and his “friends” work out of? That will tell me all i need to know.

My friend is based out of Capreol. His friend is based out of London. My friend is even contemplating moving to London.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What about a line to Squamish or White Rock? Everyone is only concerned with the existing one and the places it already serves. GO expanded beyond where they first served. AMT did too, and EXO is doing more. My beef isn't that places that are already served aren't served enough, but that the other places not served aren't.

Both great ideas. I’d even go as far as Pemberton for a northern service.

Those trains could go to Lonsdale Quay, and passengers would just take SeaBus to get to downtown Vancouver.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Both great ideas. I’d even go as far as Pemberton for a northern service.

Those trains could go to Lonsdale Quay, and passengers would just take SeaBus to get to downtown Vancouver.

Should be able to find a mid 2000s cost in the option analysis that led to the expansion of the sea to sky highway in advance of the 2010 Olympics. As continually opined by those on here without rose coloured glasses, adding capacity on freight lines is not as cheap as any of us would like.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Should be able to find a mid 2000s cost in the option analysis that led to the expansion of the sea to sky highway in advance of the 2010 Olympics. As continually opined by those on here without rose coloured glasses, adding capacity on freight lines is not as cheap as any of us would like.

Can you post it? I would like to see just how bad it would be. However, saying that, the highway did need to be improved.

Ideally the highways that the commuter lines follow are 6 lanes, divided, 100km/hr or higher posted limit and are at/over capacity. Kind of like what Toronto, Montreal and the existing WCE does.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by biguc

Of course running 15 minute EMUs would be expensive. GO is only now, after decades of growing ridership and incrementally upgrading their lines upgrading to that level of service. That's why you start out running hourly DMUs and build from there.

And I'll say it now, the Langley Skytrain is a mistake that will end up saddling Translink with an underused liability.

I have to somewhat agree. I don't know how common it is for people to commute all the way from Langley into Vancouver these days. So much of Langley's growth is happening in Willoughby and close to Highway 1. Getting from that area into Willowbrook area is now a really long drive, 200th is just a traffic mess these days and it's getting so much development. If skytrain is running to Willowbrook area getting down there won't be much time saving. The bus along hwy 1 to Lougheed may end up being faster overall as far as commuting into Vancouver.

It will be handy to get between Surrey and Langley though.

People are already complaining that they can't get a seat when they get on the Skytrain at Scott Road and with the extension, the trains are going to be even more crowded and they aren't looking forward to it.

[casper]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I have to somewhat agree. I don't know how common it is for people to commute all the way from Langley into Vancouver these days. So much of Langley's growth is happening in Willoughby and close to Highway 1. Getting from that area into Willowbrook area is now a really long drive, 200th is just a traffic mess these days and it's getting so much development. If skytrain is running to Willowbrook area getting down there won't be much time saving. The bus along hwy 1 to Lougheed may end up being faster overall as far as commuting into Vancouver.

It will be handy to get between Surrey and Langley though.

People are already complaining that they can't get a seat when they get on the Skytrain at Scott Road and with the extension, the trains are going to be even more crowded and they aren't looking forward to it.

I don't think we want to focus to much on Langley to downtown. More value comes from connecting Langley to the skytrain network with multiple all over the region.

Yes, for some the bus to Lougheed may continue to be the best option. That is ok.

[J81]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

My friend is based out of Capreol. His friend is based out of London. My friend is even contemplating moving to London.

Both busy terminals. I guarantee the guy in London will tell u the same thing i have about the Chatham and Guelph subs with regard to freight traffic.

PS. Id never leave Capreol for London. Unless hes tired of being in the bush. But the work is better there. IMO anyway.