Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Comparing the reality of one society to another 7,500 km away is hardly relevant, and doesn't help either. Would you leave your car running and unlocked with all your work items inside as you stop into a convenience store in Vancouver? Or Burnaby? Or Surrey?

Whatnext loves to find a negative incident, or someone complaining there were too many people driving round Stanley Park on the first sunny weekend in ages, or a store closing, or an article that shows something wrong with the city, and just leave it there. They troll this site across multiple threads, constantly.

Currently VPD stats show around 650 incidents of 'theft from vehicle' each week across the whole of the city. It's just over half the 1,200 incidents in a typical week in 2019. Part of the problem is that nobody ever tweets "I parked my car in the Olympic Village and nobody broke into it".

Umm, the comparisons are relevant because such comparisons help judge wether or not the current condition is acceptable or not? Why judge Vancouver’s biking infrastructure to cities thousands of KM away in Europe? Why judge the rate of mass shootings in the US to other western nations?

The thing is someone in Burnaby should be able to trust the safety of their car and the belongings in it when they park / stop somewhere in a healthy society.

Yes, there are some on here who obsess with posting negativity, but the response to that should not be apathy for Vancouver’s criminal behavior and other social problems.

I don’t get this attitude where people don’t want things to be better (things can’t get better unless you are willing to admit that there is a problem).

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Umm, the comparisons are relevant because such comparisons help judge wether or not the current condition is acceptable or not? Why judge Vancouver’s biking infrastructure to cities thousands of KM away in Europe? Why judge the rate of mass shootings in the US to other western nations?

I'm with you, Vancouver is kilometers behind many European cities in terms of biking infrastructure, (Copenhagen, Amsterdam) and way ahead of others (London, Marseille (apparently). It's sometimes helpful to point to interesting ways a city is trying to improve air quality, or reduce GHGs, but it doesn't actually help judge whether the current condition is acceptable or not at all. And indeed, who would judge the rate of shootings in the US vs Canada? Or the rate of suicide?

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The thing is someone in Burnaby should be able to trust the safety of their car and the belongings in it when they park / stop somewhere in a healthy society.

Yes, there are some on here who obsess with posting negativity, but the response to that should not be apathy for Vancouver’s criminal behavior and other social problems.

I don’t get this attitude where people don’t want things to be better (things can’t get better unless you are willing to admit that there is a problem).

Again, nobody's suggesting having a car window smashed and having something stolen is acceptable. It's just whether that's proof of 'The Decline of Vancouver's Livability' which the overall statistics suggest it isn't.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

In fairness, some cities' gangs have toned it down a bit.

...and here I thought Detroit paintball was zenith.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Sorry, while it is good advice to not leave valuables in your car (especially for a long while) excusing someone smashing your window just to grab some change as “your own fault” is pretty ridiculous. You should honestly expect higher standards from society, if not your part of the problem.

To me this is the same general train of thought as blaming a woman for being sexually assaulted simply because she was dressed in skimpy clothes.

Here in Japan I often leave my car running and unlocked with all my work items inside as I stop into a convenience store (as do many here). The odds of those items being stolen is so low, there is no real worry. And the chances of someone smashing the window of a locked car for something is so incredibly low that it isn’t even worth thinking about.

Stop excusing these societal problems, it doesn’t help.

Regarding the concepts of public safety and a concomitant low-crime society such as in Japan, I am wondering how the concepts of such are transmitted seemingly from generation to generation.
Is it a long-standing societal tradition ingrained in the collective psyche as second nature, is it taught in schools, how is it taught and regarded within the family, taught to children, and how does the role of the police and strict legal consequences function in crime prevention and to what degree? I ask all this simply to know if awareness of civic behavior could be taught in Canada and thus be second nature as it is in Japan, even if to a perhaps lesser degree? It would still be worth it, IMO.

If we could integrate a course in civics (or law, and/or civilised behavior etc) starting in elementary school, we could change the attitudes and thus the global mentality of the population, over time.

Excuse me if this seems forced or extreme in any way. It is not meant to be. It can be done in a relaxed and enjoyable way, especially in the lower grades. The lesson or point of value is implicit.

Maybe I'm dreaming too much, but I think that if examples of courtesy, honesty, and civicism are exemplified to school-age children, starting by integrating it into school curricula, with classes included in the curriculum at intervals deemed appropriate, we could end up with kids who are politer and more civic-minded than any generation previous, (at least since perhaps the Victorian age, but that's another thing altogether) And those kids grow up to be the trend-setters for future generations.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Japan's cleanliness is partially due to a homogeneous, socially stratified culture that both has flaws of its own and is really not applicable to most other countries.

Civic duty in Canada should definitely be more of a thing... and yet it's worth considering that even countries like Germany who're known worldwide for their law and order can't stop window-smashing either.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Sorry, while it is good advice to not leave valuables in your car (especially for a long while) excusing someone smashing your window just to grab some change as “your own fault” is pretty ridiculous. You should honestly expect higher standards from society, if not your part of the problem.

100%, but crime apologists be crime apologists. I am sure someone stealing your bicycle with an angle grinder is also one's own fault due to not using at least three bike locks. There are no limits to mental gymnastics.

[dreambrother808]

Realistically, these problems aren't going to just go away. We will never be Japan and complaining about every incident is a kind of obsessive negativity.

There is nothing new or salient about having your car potentially broken into if you leave valuables visible inside. Everyone who lives here should know that basic fact and make decisions accordingly. That has been true for decades.

Acting like it's new or a sign that the world is ending just comes across as further dramatics.

[s211]

"Comparing the reality of one society to another 7,500 km away is hardly relevant, and doesn't help either."

I find that comment laughable in the context of this forum, given the number of fanboys here that frequently hearken to Amsterdam as some sort of cycling heaven that we should all aspire to.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Sorry, while it is good advice to not leave valuables in your car (especially for a long while) excusing someone smashing your window just to grab some change as “your own fault” is pretty ridiculous. You should honestly expect higher standards from society, if not your part of the problem.

To me this is the same general train of thought as blaming a woman for being sexually assaulted simply because she was dressed in skimpy clothes.

I don't think dressing modestly is akin to hiding anything of value in your car. A better analogy is a woman walking home alone who chooses to walk down a busy, well-lit street instead of the alley. It is not her fault if someone assaults her, but it is better to take every precaution.

Japan sounds truly wonderful and I would love to visit there someday, but it sounds like more of an exception rather than the rule. I would leave my car unlocked in the small town I grew up in, but I would never do so in London, Rio, Sydney, Cape Town, Istanbul, or any other major city on any continent.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Klazu

100%, but crime apologists be crime apologists. I am sure someone stealing your bicycle with an angle grinder is also one's own fault due to not using at least three bike locks. There are no limits to mental gymnastics.

If you use a U-lock through the frame and wheels and don't leave the bike for a long period of time you should feel comfortable.

However, if you lock the bike with a chain that is easily disposed of with bolt cutters in an alley overnight, you are inviting theft.

Taking precautions is a sign of a prudent individual. Locking your garage door that opens to the alley, checking your faucets for drips before leaving on vacation, buying insurance, etc. are all best practices. Not leaving valuables visible in your car is another one.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by s211

"Comparing the reality of one society to another 7,500 km away is hardly relevant, and doesn't help either."

I find that comment laughable in the context of this forum, given the number of fanboys here that frequently hearken to Amsterdam as some sort of cycling heaven that we should all aspire to.

I disagree with Changing on this. Aspiring to have a mode share like Amsterdam or a lack of crime like Japan is admirable. HOWEVER...

Some things are easier to emulate than others. I would argue that the most important piece of Japan's culture is the Japanese. How much of Vancouver's population is Japanese? Meanwhile, we have plenty of things in common with Amsterdam such as a temperate climate, our population density, and very few truly daunting hills.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by s211

"Comparing the reality of one society to another 7,500 km away is hardly relevant, and doesn't help either."

I find that comment laughable in the context of this forum, given the number of fanboys here that frequently hearken to Amsterdam as some sort of cycling heaven that we should all aspire to.

I guess my comment was too subtle. Just saying Vancouver isn't as good as Amsterdam for cycling infrastructure doesn't really help. Saying what Vancouver could do to encourage cycling, or what doesn't really work in Amsterdam would seem more useful.

Similarly saying 'I can park my car with the engine running, unlocked, and nobody will steal it' in Japan doesn't really contribute to a discussion about parked cars having windows broken in Vancouver, (or what could be done to help prevent it). Unless the suggestion is that the CTV reporter move to Japan?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

My wife an I had our window smashed a couple weeks ago because of some change we left in the cupholder, but instead of blaming a crime wave or the decline of society we blamed ourselves for not being street smart.

I've mentioned this before, but I had a car window smashed in a fenced-off church parking lot in a nice part of Saskatoon. Desperate people are everywhere, so don't give them a reason to pick your car.

You are still the victim and while you made a mistake, you're not at fault. I'd be mad.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Changing City

I guess my comment was too subtle. Just saying Vancouver isn't as good as Amsterdam for cycling infrastructure doesn't really help. Saying what Vancouver could do to encourage cycling, or what doesn't really work in Amsterdam would seem more useful.

Similarly saying 'I can park my car with the engine running, unlocked, and nobody will steal it' in Japan doesn't really contribute to a discussion about parked cars having windows broken in Vancouver, (or what could be done to help prevent it). Unless the suggestion is that the CTV reporter move to Japan?

Isn't this where a pointless comparison to Copenhagen gets thrown in? Vancouver is far wetter than the two cyclists' wet dream cities yet we keep getting the same tired "but Amsterdam does it" schtick.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Isn't this where a pointless comparison to Copenhagen gets thrown in? Vancouver is far wetter than the two cyclists' wet dream cities yet we keep getting the same tired "but Amsterdam does it" schtick.

You're the one continuing the pointless comparison with that comment. And it's not even vaguely connected to the thread; take that debate to the cycling thread. Or the effective rainwear thread.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Isn't this where a pointless comparison to Copenhagen gets thrown in? Vancouver is far wetter than the two cyclists' wet dream cities yet we keep getting the same tired "but Amsterdam does it" schtick.

Our weather, climate, geography, crime and how spread out our cities are, make Vancouver and Copenhagen/Amsterdam almost polar opposites. Yet, some people still try to cram same solutions in here, as if they would ever work to the same effect. They won't and never will.

Cycling should be a small complimentary piece to rest of transportation infrastructure, not the leading factor for how much of the funds are getting spent. We are pandering an audience the size of a peanut that is mostly leisure cyclists anyways. I don't hate cycling itself, but how over-represented it is in every decision.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Leaving nothing of value visible in your car is just a good habit, no matter what city or neighborhood or country you are in.

My wife an I had our window smashed a couple weeks ago because of some change we left in the cupholder, but instead of blaming a crime wave or the decline of society we blamed ourselves for not being street smart.

I've mentioned this before, but I had a car window smashed in a fenced-off church parking lot in a nice part of Saskatoon. Desperate people are everywhere, so don't give them a reason to pick your car.

And you can keep blaming yourself for not having a secured concrete bunker home one day when robbers break into your house and rob you blind.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

40 years ago even!

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news...-days-the-clark-park-gang-ruled-east-van

Perhaps you missed this:

Following the Stones riot, the VPD formed a special undercover task force that the Clark Parkers dubbed the Heavy Squad or H Squad.

Gang members told Chapman that they were beaten and harassed by the H-Squad.

Williamson said he was one of those victimized.

“Then they started using dirty tactics,” Williamson said. “They couldn’t beat us fair and square so they were going to throw the book away.”

The H-Squad was disbanded a few months later after claiming to have broken up the gang.

We should have new H-squads today.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Police brutality was frowned upon even two decades ago.

Stanley Park beatings described in detail
CBC News · Posted: Apr 19, 2005 8:07 PM PT

(link)

The rookie Vancouver cop who reported the police beatings of three suspected drug dealers in Stanley Park two years ago has given more vivid testimony at the public hearing into the case.

All six officers involved pleaded guilty in court to the assaults. Four of them were disciplined and demoted. Two others – Constables Gabriel Kojima and Duncan Gemmell – were fired...

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Cycling should be a small complimentary piece to rest of transportation infrastructure, not the leading factor for how much of the funds are getting spent.

I would love for you to find some stats comparing how much the city spends on bike infrastructure vs. car infrastructure. Because bike lanes are incredibly cheap to "build", especially when they are sharrows or painted bike lanes which passes for a bike lane here.

Originally Posted by Vin

And you can keep blaming yourself for not having a secured concrete bunker home one day when robbers break into your house and rob you blind.

I was not speaking about incurring extra cost or inconvenience. Keeping change in the glove box or covered centre console instead of a cup holder does not require much effort and it will practically guarantee a thief will move onto the next car.

As for home theft, I think a good comparison would be asking a neighbor to shovel your driveway or mow your lawn so the house looks occupied if you plan to be gone for a few weeks.